The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Of course it's not obvious why one would want to play an instrument they don't like listening to even when played by the masters.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Of course it's not obvious why one would want to play an instrument they don't like listening to.
    Self expression. It’s a creative tool you know how to play. It’s something that just makes sense. I don’t spend my off time listening to it. I pick it up and want play it. The notes that rumble around in my head - I can easily pull them out on the fretboard. As much as I love the sound of the tenor, I can’t do that.

    Once again for me it’s never been the tone. It’s always been the notes.


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  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Self expression. It’s a creative tool you know how to play. It’s something that just makes sense. I don’t spend my off time listening to it. I pick it up and want play it. The notes that rumble around in my head - I can easily pull them out on the fretboard. As much as I love the sound of the tenor, I can’t do that.

    Once again for me it’s never been the tone. It’s always been the notes.


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    Of course you don't only listen to the instrument you play. But if someone is so not interested in hearing their instrument even when played by the masters to the extend that they worry if they can learn the music by avoiding listening to the instrument altogether, then that could only mean you discovered that you've been playing an instrument that's a very wrong choice for you all along IMO.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I play double stops because they’re available, not because i heard other guitar players use them. I use them a lot less than I used to because it became a device. I always just called them intervals. It’s fairly easy to do. You know the fretboard and scales/arpeggios and the harmonic layout of the song. I practiced 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths up and down the neck so it was easy.


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    Yes, it is a device and not something that should be overused. I loved the double stops Kenny Burrell played which were mostly 6ths and 5ths combinations. It's something I got from listening to him and has become part of my vocabulary - similar to octaves or chord melodies. Check out "Be yourself" and other songs on the "God bless the Child" album.

    I also like Benson's use of octaves with a sixth in between.
    Last edited by bobby d; 08-19-2020 at 07:52 AM.

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Of course you don't only listen to the instrument you play. But if someone is so not interested in hearing their instrument even when played by the masters to the extend that they worry if they can learn the music by avoiding listening to the instrument altogether, then that could only mean you discovered that you've been playing an instrument that's a very wrong choice for you all along IMO.
    Well ok. I think I’ve done pretty good doing it my way. Hm. You see one of the differences is I only talk about me. I would never presuppose or presume to tell someone else how they should or must play the guitar. Never. I told you why I play the guitar and don’t often listen to it. Why are you still insisting I’m wrong?


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  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Well ok. I think I’ve done pretty good doing it my way. Hm. You see one of the differences is I only talk about me. I would never presuppose or presume to tell someone else how they should or must play the guitar. Never. I told you why I play the guitar and don’t often listen to it. Why are you still insisting I’m wrong?


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    I wasn't talking about you. Sorry I didn't read all the posts. I was responding to the OP. I thought you were giving one reason for OP's position, I didn't realize you completely overlapped with that sentiment (or may be you don't).

    It's certainly not for me to judge, I'm just puzzled by a guitar player who likes jazz but wants to avoid listening to Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Kenny Burell, Ed Bickert et al. in their journey to learn the craft. (Again I don't know if that describes you, I'm referring to what I understood from OP).

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Charlie Christian is significant because - well have you listened to how most US guitarists played back then? They weren't playing single note solos. Charlie Christian came out of the saxophone, not the guitar.
    Charlie played trumpet before he played guitar. His family was musical. They went around the neighborhood playing for people and getting tips.
    During his teens in the Deep Deuce (an area in Oklahoma City with a lot of clubs) he played a lot of blues as well as swing tunes. It is, I think, fair to say that while Joe Pass sought to avoid playing guitaristic things, everything Charlie did was guitaristic---the grips he used, the way he played out of shapes, the way he held his guitar at an angle (when sitting, and he tended to play sitting) so it would project more.

    Before the electric guitar came along , there was no way for a soloist to be heard above a band with horns. Horn players were the default soloists because horns are loud and can be heard above piano and drums and acoustic bass.

    The more I think about it, the more I think "horn-like" just means "single-note-soloing." Naturally that was the province of horn players back then. Charlie idolized Lester Young and was one the great soloists in jazz but I think absolutely nothing is gained, and something can be easily confused, if one CONTINUES to call Charlie's playing "horn-like." It was guitaristic through and through.



  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I wasn't talking about you. Sorry I didn't read all the posts. I was responding to the OP. I thought you were giving one reason for OP's position, I didn't realize you completely overlapped with that sentiment (or may be you don't).

    It's certainly not for me to judge, I'm just puzzled by a guitar player who likes jazz but wants to avoid listening to Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Kenny Burell, Ed Bickert et al. in their journey to learn the craft. (Again I don't know if that describes you, I'm referring to what I understood from OP).
    Well you should read what I write if you’re puzzled. I explained pretty well.


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  10. #84

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    " But my conclusion is to resist the temptation to "burrying in reverb" Gabor

    This is an interesting point, G. Due to the nature of an electronic instrument, the player begins to believe that electronic manipulation is the only goal to one's personal sound. And, to a great extent-- it really is. However, for those who play acoustic guitars, especially Classical, there is a cornucopia of sounds that the player has at his disposal if he/she takes the time to develop the technique required for the instrument and discover the infinite sound possibilities inherent in the instrument. There are many electric guitar players that have perfected their electric sound that would, in my opinion, sound abysmal if played on an acoustic instrument without tone controls/amplification since so much is centered around attack, proper technique, and learning the tonal possibilities revealed during developing technique and exploration on a Classical guitar. And, despite the imagined protestations of many on this Forum, there is not a Jazz guitar that exists today that sounds, unamplified, as rich in tone as a quality Classical guitar. . . ergo, the need for amplification to create an electric, manipulated sound. Part of this is the tonewoods used and the other is the nature of the guitar strings that are so different from a Classical guitar.
    Since I've ,seriously, returned to my original 1966 Gibson ES125 ,less than a year ago after a very long sleep, I have been trying to create an electric sound that approximates what my ears want to hear which is based on my natural/personal sound and requires long hours of experimentation with buttons and dials and has very little to do with my technique or ideas. And, although not excessive, reverb is a necessary evil to get the rounded tone so representative of a good acoustic instrument. So, it is, in my opinion, that a rich sound is definitely not the sole territory of very expensive hollow body archtop electric instruments since I have heard some remarkable sounds from Teles, Strats, and semi-acoustic guitars that have been remarkably tweaked, electronically, for sound.
    Finally, I think there are some players, irrespective of skill level, whose main focus is blazing speed at the cost of personal sound and sadly, total musicianship suffers. To paraphrase Henry in a previous post, one's personal sound should be a number one goal for a musician since, like the human voice, it distinguishes us from others.
    Here's Roland Dyens for an example of Jazz played on a Classical instrument. Play live! . . . Marinero





  11. #85

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    The question is-why would you want to limit yourself? Listen to any music that you are fond of and don't limit your listening by the type of instrument.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Well you should read what I write if you’re puzzled. I explained pretty well.


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    OK I read what you wrote. It seems like you didn't rule out guitar early on but you listened to a lot of guitar players. But in the end most musicians that spoke to you were players of other instruments. I certainly can understand that. Great musicians that resonate with us can come in any instrument. They don't have to play the same instrument as the player who learns from them.

    My interpretation of OP that he/she is at an early stage in their development (hence the getting started section) but ruling out all the great guitar players due instrumental preferences. Maybe I misunderstand OP's reasons but that's what it sounded like to me.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Yea, a dry electric guitar sound is like a chicken cooked with no seasoning. You'd never want to taste that.

    Sax or trumpet otoh sound delicious by itself.
    The guitar like all instruments depends on the acoustic... however we can fake an acoustic if we want! :-)

    A smidgeon of Reverb goes a long way.

    I do admire players who go dry though. Esp with a bit of crunch. Krantz, Lage; brave players!

    OTOH listening to the amplifier sound ‘on beam’ is always an unpleasant experience. Other musicians don’t seem to understand this lol.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I wasn't talking about you. Sorry I didn't read all the posts. I was responding to the OP. I thought you were giving one reason for OP's position, I didn't realize you completely overlapped with that sentiment (or may be you don't).

    It's certainly not for me to judge, I'm just puzzled by a guitar player who likes jazz but wants to avoid listening to Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Kenny Burell, Ed Bickert et al. in their journey to learn the craft. (Again I don't know if that describes you, I'm referring to what I understood from OP).
    I think people always respond to the music they respond to. Tbh I love those guys but the amount of their music I’ve sat down and worked on is actually quite small in relation to other players that for whatever reason I was more drawn to (both guitar and other instruments.) I’ve done maybe one Wes solo?

    The thing that drives you to dive deeply into someone’s music - work out their lines and so on - is a mysterious and deeply beneficent impulse and following it will make you unique and individual, because we are all drawn to different stuff.

  15. #89

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    Possible and probable are two different things. Yeah, it's possible. Others have already posted many examples of great jazz guitarists who cite non-guitarists as primary influences.

    When I was in school, we guitarists were encouraged strongly to listen to and transcribe non-guitarist solos; that was great advice, and I did do that a lot. But as someone who was still learning the mechanics of playing technique and conceptualizing lines/style that were suited to execution on guitar, I got more out of transcribing Pat Martino, Wes and Larry Carlton than Bird, even though I listened to (and stole ideas from) everybody.

  16. #90

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    I was just listening to an online concert and heard a guitarist I wasn't familiar with.

    He had a classic jazz style. Meaning, he played a lot of very cool sounding lines, which I've heard other guitarists play.

    My guess is that he has studied a lot of guitarists.

    You occasionally hear a guitarist who doesn't play that way. Maybe those are the players who didn't listen to guitarists as much.

    Hard to name them, but Charlie Christian leapt to mind -- you can hear him in Lester Young's recordings that Charlie could have heard. And, there wasn't much single note soloing on guitar on record back then, although I've read that Charlie had heard Django. I don't hear any similarity though.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    More importantly, can I learn to play jazz guitar without listening to any jazz? It’s a bit of a nuisance.
    Right, all it takes is learning all 462 seven note scales and maybe another couple hundred 8 and 9 note scales then learning 3 octave scale patterns and practicing them until you can get to 16th notes at quarter = 180

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d
    One thing, horn players don't and can't play chords...
    They usually can't play more than note simultaneously, but some might be able to play two simultaneously if that is what you are referring to. They can play arpeggiated chords.

  19. #93

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    Here is a horn player playing chords


  20. #94

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    Here is another horn player playing chords (go to 1:30):


  21. #95

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    Well... horn players as you say cannot really play chords like on a guitar but they know how they are made, some guitarists (not a lot here I think) think about shapes, tabs...
    This is why some say guitarists have to think like horn players (not in shapes and tricks).

  22. #96

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    I think you could become a good jazz guitarist without listening to much jazz guitar. You could totally learn single-note soloing by just listening to sax players and working stuff out on the guitar based on their lines.
    That assumes you already know how to play the guitar though of course.

    When it comes to chords and comping, you would need to listen to guitarists otherwise you would end up doing things in a way that might piss off other people in a band. Understanding other people's expectations of your role as an accompanist would be tough unless you'd listened to examples of guitar comping.

    If the OP means 'could you take jazz guitar lessons and learn from them, but not really listen to much jazz guitar?' then the answer is yes, sure. But in those jazz guitar lessons you would of course be listening to jazz guitar!

  23. #97

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    I learned comping by listening to Red Garland.


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  24. #98

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    Can you become a good jazz guitar player without listening to guitar?

    I don't know why you ask the question. Why would you not listen to guitar if you play guitar?

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Can you become a good jazz guitar player without listening to guitar?

    I don't know why you ask the question. Why would you not listen to guitar if you play guitar?
    Why would one prefer to learn to play jazz from jazz guitarists, just because she/he plays the guitar?

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Why would one prefer to learn to play jazz from jazz guitarists, just because she/he plays the guitar?
    I didn't say that. I meant why exclude the guitar? Why exclude anything? Listening is learning, whether it's to music or anything else.

    Apart from the obvious fact that you're not going to learn much about what's possible on a guitar by only listening to other instruments.