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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Right, all it takes is learning all 462 seven note scales and maybe another couple hundred 8 and 9 note scales then learning 3 octave scale patterns and practicing them until you can get to 16th notes at quarter = 180
    Hi, B,
    I assume your remark is tongue in cheek, however, it is exactly this approach that creates music machines vs. musicians. My biggest problem with most younger players is that when you hear their "music," it sounds studied(as above) and inorganic to my ears. Music programs across the world are creating Jazz robots with big chops that play memorized solos from the greats, many note for note, as they launch their Youtube careers with backing tracks played in their bedroom lounges. Sadly, younger players do not have the opportunities to play live, as in my generation, and it shows in their "music." For a musician to bloom, he/she needs to play live with other musicians since the experience and the musical "give and take" are essential to creative growth. And, a player can never have a real "magical moment" as so often happens when playing live with other musicians. Some of my early "epiphanies" were reacting to bass lines/drum licks/horn riffs from fellow band members. And, after the gig, I wondered: "Where did that come from?"
    So, one has a choice in his/her musical development: whether to choose an organic or academic approach to their music. And, as a blanket statement intended to avoid a civil war among some members, it is the reason I find many of the younger Jazz guitar "geniuses" ,revered by some on this Forum,as boring, lifeless, technicians. But, that's another topic. Here's an organic player with heavy R&B roots. Play live?????? . . . Marinero


    https://youtu.be/19Hjt7a_hVc

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, B,
    I assume your remark is tongue in cheek, however, it is exactly this approach that creates music machines vs. musicians. My biggest problem with most younger players is that when you hear their "music," it sounds studied(as above) and inorganic to my ears. Music programs across the world are creating Jazz robots with big chops that play memorized solos from the greats, many note for note, as they launch their Youtube careers with backing tracks played in their bedroom lounges. Sadly, younger players do not have the opportunities to play live, as in my generation, and it shows in their "music." For a musician to bloom, he/she needs to play live with other musicians since the experience and the musical "give and take" are essential to creative growth. And, a player can never have a real "magical moment" as so often happens when playing live with other musicians. Some of my early "epiphanies" were reacting to bass lines/drum licks/horn riffs from fellow band members. And, after the gig, I wondered: "Where did that come from?"
    So, one has a choice in his/her musical development: whether to choose an organic or academic approach to their music. And, as a blanket statement intended to avoid a civil war among some members, it is the reason I find many of the younger Jazz guitar "geniuses" ,revered by some on this Forum,as boring, lifeless, technicians. But, that's another topic. Here's an organic player with heavy R&B roots. Play live?????? . . . Marinero


    https://youtu.be/19Hjt7a_hVc
    I wouldn't assume it is the current younger generation that often sounds mechanical, but just younger (limited experienced) players, period.

    E.g. The Buddy Rich band; over 40 years go there were comments about how some of the younger players sounded mechanical, and how some of the old-dudes had soul, where more melodic, said something in their solos etc...

  4. #103

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    slides, hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, staccato, bends, palm mute, chicken picking, whammy bar, string scrapes, double stops, tremolo picking, harmonics, pinch harmonics

    and probably several other things that Jeff Beck does that I can't think of

    The point is, the guitar is a very expressive and unique instrument. Why not play it that way?



  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I wouldn't assume it is the current younger generation that often sounds mechanical, but just younger (limited experienced) players, period.

    E.g. The Buddy Rich band; over 40 years go there were comments about how some of the younger players sounded mechanical, and how some of the old-dudes had soul, where more melodic, said something in their solos etc...
    Yeah.... tbh I’d be a little careful about allowing M to turn a thread into yet another boring rant about the alleged awfulness of modern music, but that’s me.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    slides, hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, staccato, bends, palm mute, chicken picking, whammy bar, string scrapes, double stops, tremolo picking, harmonics, pinch harmonics

    and probably several other things that Jeff Beck does that I can't think of

    The point is, the guitar is a very expressive and unique instrument. Why not play it that way?


    Bebop is to blame. Swing musicians invented wah wah and outrageous showmanship....

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    slides, hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, staccato, bends, palm mute, chicken picking, whammy bar, string scrapes, double stops, tremolo picking, harmonics, pinch harmonics

    and probably several other things that Jeff Beck does that I can't think of

    The point is, the guitar is a very expressive and unique instrument. Why not play it that way?


    It is not about using or not using those tools. More about the motivation when and why to use. If a learning student try to transcribe and play along (cover) a horn solo, she/he is forced to use and discover those tools to get closer to the rendition of that particular horn solo, which seems to be a very authentic application and learning those tools.

    I do not see any contradiction here: Learning from the best musicians which fits to the student, (regardless if the hero is guitarist or not), and being a guitar student try to ingrain that music, improve the necessary guitar technique and tools for rendering that way. The bias to guitarist heros are not justified, indeed the opposite: this may lower the risk of technique for technique, the tools for tools, l'art pour l'art feel, it has a natural protection against :-)

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    slides, hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, staccato, bends, palm mute, chicken picking, whammy bar, string scrapes, double stops, tremolo picking, harmonics, pinch harmonics

    and probably several other things that Jeff Beck does that I can't think of

    The point is, the guitar is a very expressive and unique instrument. Why not play it that way?
    There's that, of course

    I never had a teacher, so I either learned that stuff from records (no YT then) or the occasional TV show, I really don't remember. Thing is, as you explore the instrument, you tend to just discover the tricks of the trade.

    But string scrapes, seriously? Not even when rockin' out back in the 70s

  9. #108

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    I (mostly) hate pinch harmonics. Seriously.

    If you are in fact from Texas, you might be able to get away with them. Everyone else, desist please.

  10. #109

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    Yeah string scrapes not what I meant. What do you call it when you downpick three of four strings, the lower strings muted and the highest string fretted and sounds out? For that matter somebody like Wes Montgomery did a variation of this when playing octaves, the fretted notes sound out, the in between muted strings give a bit of body or thump to the sound.

    Yes not a string scrape. Not sure if there is a name for it.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    slides, hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, staccato, bends, palm mute, chicken picking, whammy bar, string scrapes, double stops, tremolo picking, harmonics, pinch harmonics

    and probably several other things that Jeff Beck does that I can't think of

    The point is, the guitar is a very expressive and unique instrument. Why not play it that way?


    Hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, bends, double stops, slides, staccatos and even whammy bar cones with the territory. It doesn’t take serious studying to learn how to do any of those things. The rest I don’t know. I never bothered with sweeping or that Van Halen two handed tapping thing. Just popular guitaristic tricks. Never interested. But the others are just a part of playing electric guitar. I played it a lot and those things came out. I replaced a guitar player in a band back in the early 80s who was a dead master at the whammy, a la Adrian Belew, so I played it. I never studied it. I bought King Crimson Discipline which had just come out. But I just listened, you know? I didn’t transcribe or learn anything. It was in the universe and kind of job required.


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  12. #111

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    I think swing has a lot to do with it. When I hear Cannonball or Oscar Peterson or or Garland, Coltrane, Freddie, Herbie I hear a swing and sophistication I just don’t hear in the guitar players of the time. The phrasing was just awkward. Flat. One dimensional tone. The accents are wrong half the time. It just NEVER sounded right to me. I’ve talked about it before. I think I know what the problem is. But I still haven’t cracked the code. But I listened to jazz BEFORE I picked up a guitar. I knew what I thought it was supposed to sound like. But the jazz guitarists I heard when I started we’re Al Casey, Tal Farlow, Ellis, Kenny, Wes, early Larry Coryell playing with Chico Hamilton. Gabor Szabo. It just never sounded right.

    But by then I was into Hendrix, electric modal Miles, and then fusion. But I STILL was deeply listening to Coltrane, Mingus, Dolphy, Cannonball, Miles, Oscar. I knew what it was SUPPOSED to sound like. Guitar just didn’t sound like that. But it did in my head. It didn’t in my fingers either. I was picking every note and not paying any attention to pick direction or phrasing. Timing was a mess. Accenting and phrasing was a mess. Still is probably, but I’m working on it. Lol.


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  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I think swing has a lot to do with it. When I hear Cannonball or Oscar Peterson or or Garland, Coltrane, Freddie, Herbie I hear a swing and sophistication I just don’t hear in the guitar players of the time. The phrasing was just awkward. Flat. One dimensional tone. The accents are wrong half the time. It just NEVER sounded right to me. I’ve talked about it before. I think I know what the problem is. But I still haven’t cracked the code. But I listened to jazz BEFORE I picked up a guitar. I knew what I thought it was supposed to sound like. But the jazz guitarists I heard when I started we’re Al Casey, Tal Farlow, Ellis, Kenny, Wes, early Larry Coryell playing with Chico Hamilton. Gabor Szabo. It just never sounded right.

    But by then I was into Hendrix, electric modal Miles, and then fusion. But I STILL was deeply listening to Coltrane, Mingus, Dolphy, Cannonball, Miles, Oscar. I knew what it was SUPPOSED to sound like. Guitar just didn’t sound like that. But it did in my head. It didn’t in my fingers either. I was picking every note and not paying any attention to pick direction or phrasing. Timing was a mess. Accenting and phrasing was a mess. Still is probably, but I’m working on it. Lol.


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    You should listen to your Body And Soul again, your articulate very well with dynamic on the double-time feel.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    You should listen to your Body And Soul again, your articulate very well with dynamic on the double-time feel.
    Thank you. I’ll check it out. Lol.


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  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Thank you. I’ll check it out. Lol.


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    I'm talking about the one without effects but I think you're more comfortable with effects à la Mike Stern, in terms of sound. You feel more comfortable when there is sustain in the sound, right ?

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    I'm talking about the one without effects but I think you're more comfortable with effects à la Mike Stern, in terms of sound. You feel more comfortable when there is sustain in the sound, right ?
    I’m changing somewhat. But yeah. For a long time I just wanted to change the timbre of the guitar. I wanted more character or complicated tones. Distortion reminded me more of a sax. It wasn’t that straight fat mono tone that Martino got. And I LOVE Martino. I just didn’t want to sound like that. I didn’t want to sound like Stern either but the chorus I used was his as well. Serendipity. I had been using a pitch change setting in the SPX90. I didn’t know anyone else who used that. The. I saw him play in NYC in the early 90s. He let me play his TELE after the gig and i saw he used the same setting. Wow. I swear i didn’t copy him. But when I first heard him playing Back Seat Betty on Miles’ come back record I thought it sounded like me. Better but the same direction. Chorus and bop oriented fusion. Just a LOT better and more mature.

    Lately I’m turning off the chorus. I just don’t hear it any more unless I’m playing a few of my songs where that’s the sound. Still like delay. I’m not even using distortion much. I try but I’m not hearing it.

    My Standards album has been fairly successful. And except for one song, Invitation, I don’t use chorus or distortion. I think it’s my nod to the tradition and evil eye I get from jazz guitar people - snobs. I always liked being rebellious. I know they hated it. But it was me. I don’t care if you don’t like it. I might get a little snarky about it but that’s not going to make me change. Maybe dig in my heels a bit.

    But now that it’s out there I’m representing that sound. I guess.


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    Last edited by henryrobinett; 08-19-2020 at 12:09 AM.

  17. #116

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    Btw, once I was in the teachers room, and I hear my student warming up in the lesson room from a distance, which first I almost mistaken for a sax. He's a beginner, but he likes to play lead stuff (rock, no jazz yet), so he uses distortion/overdrive, but has no vibrato at all mastered yet. So I made a mental notice, guitar with distortion no vibrato involved playing- very much sax tone. For some reason I never notice or thought about that before.
    Oh, and he's got Les Paul copy, humbuckers.

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Yeah string scrapes not what I meant. What do you call it when you downpick three of four strings, the lower strings muted and the highest string fretted and sounds out? For that matter somebody like Wes Montgomery did a variation of this when playing octaves, the fretted notes sound out, the in between muted strings give a bit of body or thump to the sound.

    Yes not a string scrape. Not sure if there is a name for it.
    A rake! I use em all the damn time.

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    .... I heard when I started we’re Al Casey, Tal Farlow, Ellis, Kenny, Wes, early Larry Coryell playing with Chico Hamilton. Gabor Szabo. It just never sounded right. ...
    Well, this explains your opinion :-).
    Jokes aside, except of Wes, and partially Kenny you listened the wrong guys. Three of them are my anti hero, mostly because they prefer technical attractions over music, and always trying to play in those speed which are they way incapable, not caring about intonate a soulful note, not even when they are playing slowly. (to be fair, I do not know Al Casey, so my opinion goes to the remainig others)

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Well, this explains your opinion :-).
    Jokes aside, except of Wes, and partially Kenny you listened the wrong guys. Three of them are my anti hero, mostly because they prefer technical attractions over music, and always trying to play in those speed which are they way incapable, not caring about intonate a soulful note, not even when they are playing slowly. (to be fair, I do not know Al Casey, so my opinion goes to the remainig others)
    Yeah but I heard them all. I’m just saying the guys I heard first. Pass and Hall. Kessel. It was THAT guitar sound. It just never drew me to it. It was cool and all but there just was too narrow a field. I don’t know. I’m just talking about me, right? Guitar is Guitar. Not much you can do. It’s a small quiet instrument until it became electric with big amps.


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  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Btw, once I was in the teachers room, and I hear my student warming up in the lesson room from a distance, which first I almost mistaken for a sax. He's a beginner, but he likes to play lead stuff (rock, no jazz yet), so he uses distortion/overdrive, but has no vibrato at all mastered yet. So I made a mental notice, guitar with distortion no vibrato involved playing- very much sax tone. For some reason I never notice or thought about that before.
    Oh, and he's got Les Paul copy, humbuckers.
    The first rock and roll bands had a saxophonist until they created effects for guitar.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    slides, hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, staccato, bends, palm mute, chicken picking, whammy bar, string scrapes, double stops, tremolo picking, harmonics, pinch harmonics

    and probably several other things that Jeff Beck does that I can't think of

    The point is, the guitar is a very expressive and unique instrument. Why not play it that way?


    Dude, preach!

    Yes, that's what fun about the guitar! Now as a teacher, I can show kids all the those tricks and see their faces light up. And I remember that's what drawn me to guitar in the first place. It actually made me go back and rediscover all the classic rock stuff that I was so excited about (but couldn't really play well at the time)
    I just learned (re-learned) Panama and what a fun it to play. And yes, strings scrapes and pinch harmonics are totally awesome in my book! Horn players can only dream to sound like that lol

  23. #122

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    And not to belabor but to explain. When I started playing guitar I had an uncle who played tenor. Old school. Lester. He remembered when he first heard Bird. He was painting a house in Oakland. He had heard about this Charlie Parker guy. Then he nearly fell off his ladder. It MUST be Bird he heard in the radio. Changed his life.

    Anyway uncle Clarence when he found out I was starting to play guitar he played me these old records. Al Casey, Tal Farlow, Kessel, Ellis, Hall. But what he REALLY liked doing was giving me jazz lessons. He’d play me the lineage. Erskin Hawkins, Hot Lips, Basie, Lester, Holiday, Chu Berry, Coleman Hawkins, The duels, Dexter, Wardel, Bird, Dizzy, Bud, Monk, Miles. Rollins. But he did it chronologically. Took me through Dolphy. Showed me the line of innovation. That regardless of the instrument the musical line was followed. When Lester came along everyone changed. When Bird and Dizzy came all the instruments changed.

    To me that meant that the musical THOUGHT was senior over the specific instrument. If you can hear the notes and the phrase in your head, that takes seniority over the style of some other guitar player. It’s the music. When it’s in your head it becomes YOUR music.


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  24. #123

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    But before Uncle Clarence my mom loved Oscar Peterson’s Sound of the Trio on Verve, Mingus’ Blues and Roots and Ah Um. So did I as a kid. Played them over and over. Then I discovered Mingus and played all of his records over and over BEFORE Clarence’s history lessons. I was fortunate. I knew what it was about and what it was supposed to sound like long before I decided to play the guitar. Even though I loved guitar it didn’t sound right in jazz context to me. Maybe that’s because uncle Clarence played tenor.


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    Last edited by henryrobinett; 08-19-2020 at 06:19 AM.

  25. #124

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    " When Lester came along everyone changed. When Bird and Dizzy came all the instruments changed.

    To me that meant that the musical THOUGHT was senior over the specific instrument. If you can hear the notes and the phrase in your head, that takes seniority over the style of some other guitar player. It’s the music. When it’s in your head it becomes YOUR music."

    "
    I replaced a guitar player in a band back in the early 80s who was a dead master at the whammy, a la Adrian Belew, so I played it. I never studied it. I bought King Crimson Discipline which had just come out. But I just listened, you know? I didn’t transcribe or learn anything. It was in the universe and kind of job required" Henry Robinett


    Must be a generational thing, Henry. We went to the same school. Play live . . . Marinero


    Last edited by Marinero; 08-19-2020 at 07:52 AM.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    " When Lester came along everyone changed. When Bird and Dizzy came all the instruments changed.

    To me that meant that the musical THOUGHT was senior over the specific instrument. If you can hear the notes and the phrase in your head, that takes seniority over the style of some other guitar player. It’s the music. When it’s in your head it becomes YOUR music."

    "
    I replaced a guitar player in a band back in the early 80s who was a dead master at the whammy, a la Adrian Belew, so I played it. I never studied it. I bought King Crimson Discipline which had just come out. But I just listened, you know? I didn’t transcribe or learn anything. It was in the universe and kind of job required" Henry Robinett


    Must be a generational thing, Henry. We went to a different school. Play live . . . Marinero


    I don’t think so. I went to my own school. What do you mean? I went against what was taught. That’s what I’m saying.


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  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I don’t think so. I went to my own school. What do you mean? I went against what was taught. That’s what I’m saying.


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    Hi, H,
    I corrected my previous post to make it more clear. Play live . . . Rognvald
    Last edited by Marinero; 08-19-2020 at 07:54 AM. Reason: addition

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    I corrected my previous post to make it more clear. Play live . . . Rognvald
    Clear as mud. Lol. It must be a generational thing? What must be and why?


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  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Clear as mud. Lol. It must be a generational thing? What must be and why?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Hi, H,
    Formal Jazz pedagogy during the late 60's/early 70's was not what it has become today with dedicated Jazz Programs in most college Music Departments around the country. In 1973, I visited Berklee College of Music in Boston which was the most acclaimed program in the US and one of the few dedicated Jazz Music programs in the US at the time. I was working ,then, in Chicago , with a Jazz Rock big band and jobbing, when available, with R@B groups when I considered taking off a year for formal study. Most of the musicians I played with ,then, learned "on the job" moving from gig to gig and absorbing as much as possible. This was also my method although ,as a saxophonist, I was heavily invested into self-study of scales and chords being enamored with Coltrane, Stitt, and Gordon. And, if one did study with a teacher, it was largely concentrated on technique although I did study improvisation with Chicago's Willie Pickens--pianist, who basically comped while I worked on my piece of the week. So, when I say generational, it was the soup du jour,at that time, if one wanted to play Jazz/R@B,Soul, to play with a band and work on your sound/chops on the job. However, in the last 30 years,or so, Jazz programs have become well established around the country and began to churn out generations of "Jazz"musicians who not only learned the technique/pedagogy, but formally studied Jazz theory, history, and improvisation--mostly by playing solos as recorded on records. So, to be clear, the generational difference, as I see it, was study with a teacher/self study and learning on gigs versus enrolling in a Jazz studies program and testing the waters after graduation. Of course, this is a generalization but I think it holds water.
    So, as explained above, the simple answer to your question is that formal Jazz education is far more common in today's musicians than when I first started playing in the 60's and is, in my opinion, a generational way to learn/play that has changed over the years. (Did I mention the internet?) And, I will continue to believe that there is a huge gap in overall creativity/personality of the greats of the past in comparison to the hordes of techno-musicians today that play with the sentiment of a cardboard box. Perhaps, Jazz?? has changed and I haven't . . . Ave Verum Corpus. Play live . . . Marinero

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    Formal Jazz pedagogy during the late 60's/early 70's was not what it has become today with dedicated Jazz Programs in most college Music Departments around the country. In 1973, I visited Berklee College of Music in Boston which was the most acclaimed program in the US and one of the few dedicated Jazz Music programs in the US at the time. I was working ,then, in Chicago , with a Jazz Rock big band and jobbing, when available, with R@B groups when I considered taking off a year for formal study. Most of the musicians I played with ,then, learned "on the job" moving from gig to gig and absorbing as much as possible. This was also my method although ,as a saxophonist, I was heavily invested into self-study of scales and chords being enamored with Coltrane, Stitt, and Gordon. And, if one did study with a teacher, it was largely concentrated on technique although I did study improvisation with Chicago's Willie Pickens--pianist, who basically comped while I worked on my piece of the week. So, when I say generational, it was the soup du jour,at that time, if one wanted to play Jazz/R@B,Soul, to play with a band and work on your sound/chops on the job. However, in the last 30 years,or so, Jazz programs have become well established around the country and began to churn out generations of "Jazz"musicians who not only learned the technique/pedagogy, but formally studied Jazz theory, history, and improvisation--mostly by playing solos as recorded on records. So, to be clear, the generational difference, as I see it, was study with a teacher/self study and learning on gigs versus enrolling in a Jazz studies program and testing the waters after graduation. Of course, this is a generalization but I think it holds water.
    So, as explained above, the simple answer to your question is that formal Jazz education is far more common in today's musicians than when I first started playing in the 60's and is, in my opinion, a generational way to learn/play that has changed over the years. (Did I mention the internet?) And, I will continue to believe that there is a huge gap in overall creativity/personality of the greats of the past in comparison to the hordes of techno-musicians today that play with the sentiment of a cardboard box. Perhaps, Jazz?? has changed and I haven't . . . Ave Verum Corpus. Play live . . . Marinero
    Ah! Yes. NOW that's clear. And of course I agree 1,000% Thank you.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    The first rock and roll bands had a saxophonist until they created effects for guitar.
    I really like that. All the recordings I've heard from that time made an impact on me. That sweet spot where jazz meets blues meets rocknroll is one of my favorite. Maybe they should've kept it that way. It's when guitar was mostly doing what it's supposed to do- play rhythm.

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I really like that. All the recordings I've heard from that time made an impact on me. That sweet spot where jazz meets blues meets rocknroll is one of my favorite. Maybe they should've kept it that way. It's when guitar was mostly doing what it's supposed to do- play rhythm.
    But to keep cost down the band had to make a decision; piano or guitar, and that often lead to no job for a guitarist.

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    But to keep cost down the band had to make a decision; piano or guitar, and that often lead to no job for a guitarist.
    Really? Damn... Well, it only confirms that bass players get all the gigs all the time.

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    But to keep cost down the band had to make a decision; piano or guitar, and that often lead to no job for a guitarist.
    i usually play in bands without piano. Usually it’s because they want a bit of rhythm. (Or else it’s a modern jazz thing and they want that texture; a bit of Frisell maybe.)

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    i usually play in bands without piano. Usually it’s because they want a bit of rhythm. (Or else it’s a modern jazz thing and they want that texture; a bit of Frisell maybe.)
    We were discussing the 50s and the original Rock and Roll bands. It was my understanding (which is limited I admit), that a guitarist in such a band had to be solid at providing backing vocals and even lead vocals. Adding someone that just plays guitar to a Sax, Piano, Bass, Drum Rock and Roll \ R&B band, wasn't viewed as enough of a contribution.

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    We were discussing the 50s and the original Rock and Roll bands. It was my understanding (which is limited I admit), that a guitarist in such a band had to be solid at providing backing vocals and even lead vocals. Adding someone that just plays guitar to a Sax, Piano, Bass, Drum Rock and Roll \ R&B band, wasn't viewed as enough of a contribution.
    Definitely. When I've done stuff like that I've been on backing vox... hard though, playing guitar at the same time! Not great at it (which is maybe why I don't get those calls so much) - you kind of want something who's a basic but strong player who is just dialled in with the playing and singing thing. Plus some of those guys have their rockabilly lead chops together as well...

    Man, music is HARD!

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Definitely. When I've done stuff like that I've been on backing vox... hard though, playing guitar at the same time! Not great at it (which is maybe why I don't get those calls so much) - you kind of want something who's a basic but strong player who is just dialled in with the playing and singing thing. Plus some of those guys have their rockabilly lead chops together as well...

    Man, music is HARD!
    I remember bands where the front line guys, guitar, bass, vocals, horns, all had to do choreographed dance routines on top 40 tunes.

    Daytona Beach, Easter, 1968. Hitchhiked down there from NYC. There was an auditorium built at the end of a pier. Two bands. Abe and the Houserockers was one. I don't recall the name of the other one, but they were great. Singing, choreographed dancing and rocking like crazy. Best rock bar band I ever heard. I recall that they were racially mixed, which was still a little unusual at that time.

    Might anybody know who they were?

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    Formal Jazz pedagogy during the late 60's/early 70's was not what it has become today with dedicated Jazz Programs in most college Music Departments around the country. In 1973, I visited Berklee College of Music in Boston which was the most acclaimed program in the US and one of the few dedicated Jazz Music programs in the US at the time. I was working ,then, in Chicago , with a Jazz Rock big band and jobbing, when available, with R@B groups when I considered taking off a year for formal study. Most of the musicians I played with ,then, learned "on the job" moving from gig to gig and absorbing as much as possible. This was also my method although ,as a saxophonist, I was heavily invested into self-study of scales and chords being enamored with Coltrane, Stitt, and Gordon. And, if one did study with a teacher, it was largely concentrated on technique although I did study improvisation with Chicago's Willie Pickens--pianist, who basically comped while I worked on my piece of the week. So, when I say generational, it was the soup du jour,at that time, if one wanted to play Jazz/R@B,Soul, to play with a band and work on your sound/chops on the job. However, in the last 30 years,or so, Jazz programs have become well established around the country and began to churn out generations of "Jazz"musicians who not only learned the technique/pedagogy, but formally studied Jazz theory, history, and improvisation--mostly by playing solos as recorded on records. So, to be clear, the generational difference, as I see it, was study with a teacher/self study and learning on gigs versus enrolling in a Jazz studies program and testing the waters after graduation. Of course, this is a generalization but I think it holds water.
    So, as explained above, the simple answer to your question is that formal Jazz education is far more common in today's musicians than when I first started playing in the 60's and is, in my opinion, a generational way to learn/play that has changed over the years. (Did I mention the internet?) And, I will continue to believe that there is a huge gap in overall creativity/personality of the greats of the past in comparison to the hordes of techno-musicians today that play with the sentiment of a cardboard box. Perhaps, Jazz?? has changed and I haven't . . . Ave Verum Corpus. Play live . . . Marinero
    Didn’t Miles quit Juilliard after a semester? What happened to Miles? Oh that’s right he only turned out to be the player of his generation. So, what we’ve learned is one doesn’t need to attend music school to become famous, nor study guitarists to learn jazz guitar. Glad we got that straight.

    You played saxophone? Still play it? Gordon is my favorite!

  39. #138

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    I think the guitar sounds great on Henry's record.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Didn’t Miles quit Juilliard after a semester? What happened to Miles?

    Miles? You mean Miles David? He's flippin' burgers down at Jakes Burger Shack.

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Didn’t Miles quit Juilliard after a semester? What happened to Miles? Oh that’s right he only turned out to be the player of his generation. So, what we’ve learned is one doesn’t need to attend music school to become famous, nor study guitarists to learn jazz guitar. Glad we got that straight.

    You played saxophone? Still play it? Gordon is my favorite!
    Hi, B,
    Yes, of course and I hope I made it clear in my last post. Do I still play sax? No. I haven't touched my horn since 1982. It's a Selmer Mark VI with the original lacquer in outstanding shape and a classic Meyer rubber mouthpiece for the big round sound. I used Rico Royals #4 for reeds. Maybe someday but then there's always the need to play with others. That's what I love about guitar. No one needed for a gig but yourself. Thanks for your response. Play live . . . Marinero

  42. #141

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    "I remember bands where the front line guys, guitar, bass, vocals, horns, all had to do choreographed dance routines on top 40 tunes." rpjazzguitar

    Hi, RP
    I played with R@B/Soul groups for years and it was the soup du jour to do dance routines to James Brown, Wilson Pickett, Sam and Dave, Sly, Al Green, Joe Tex, Rufus Thomas, and Aretha , to name a few. It was a big part of the show. We also hired "Shake Dancers" at some of our gigs who danced in bikinis and high heels and was a great crowd favorite. Here's a blast from the past! Check out JB and the alto sax solo. Ya wanna know where all the Jazzers who played horns were making a living in the 80's??? Play live . . . Marinero

    https://youtu.be/I0fbsc1Djyc

  43. #142

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    Here's some "Shake Dancers" for those who don't know. Play live . . .Marinero




  44. #143

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    Sorry, Guys. I had to play one more. Check out the tenor sax. Hard core Jazzer. Play live . . . Marinero


    Last edited by Marinero; 08-20-2020 at 09:10 AM. Reason: spelling

  45. #144

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    I missedplaying with shake dancers. The closest I came was some shows with a, original pop/rock R&B band in the 70s where we did some concerts with an African dance troupe.

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I missedplaying with shake dancers. The closest I came was some shows with a, original pop/rock R&B band in the 70s where we did some concerts with an African dance troupe.
    Hi, H,
    I'm a former Chicago guy and in the 70's into the early 80's, I played sax with R@B,Funk, Soul bands on Chicago's South and West side. These were usually small clubs/lounges and it was the first time I played with shake dancers. And, at that time, it was considered the soup du jour for the popular clubs such as The Enterprise Lounge on S. Stony Island, Wilmar's Playboy Lounge on 63rd St.and many whose names I can't remember. I also played at a strip club in Chicago's Oldtown-- Big Mike's and a transvestite show at the Half and Half Club on S. Michigan Avenue across from the Robert Taylor projects. The most unusual gig I ever played was a "Live Show" that was closed to the public and you'll have to use your imagination for an explanation. This was also the area, however, where tenor saxophonist Von Freeman had his weekly jam sessions at "The Enterprise Lounge," and later at the "Apartment Lounge" where I first heard 17 year old Stevie Coleman playing Bird solos. I doubt any of this exists today. Progress, huh? Play live . . . Marinero

  47. #146

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    Long ago I listened to the radio and whatever I liked I tried to copy on the guitar [regardless of the instruments that played it]. Violin, horns, keyboards, vocals, drums, sitars.... whatever came out of the speakers was fair game. I transferred all kinds of stuff & styles into the 6 strings of the guitar. Of course later I had to learn about good timing and "feel" . Now I guess it's still the same.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by myhandhurts
    Long ago I listened to the radio and whatever I liked I tried to copy on the guitar [regardless of the instruments that played it]. Violin, horns, keyboards, vocals, drums, sitars.... whatever came out of the speakers was fair game. I transferred all kinds of stuff & styles into the 6 strings of the guitar. Of course later I had to learn about good timing and "feel" . Now I guess it's still the same.

    Hi, M,
    That's how most started on the guitar. We also wore out phonograph needles and records copying licks. Today, the untrained musician has an abundance of learning tools on the internet. What a difference a day makes. Play live??(when??) . . . Marinero



  49. #148

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    It's definitely possible to listen to jazz without listening to guitar players.

    But guitar players have been working for about 100 years now translating this music to the instrument, and they made some very nice discoveries along the way. If you draw upon that tradition and build on what they've learned, you have the potential to save yourself a whole lot of trouble. Otherwise, you may find yourself reinventing the wheel.

  50. #149

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    Slightly OT, but folks were talking about the role of a guitarist in a group.

    40 years ago I jobbed occasionally on guitar with a band led by a jazz trumpeter. He had little liking for guitar; he only hired me to "bring the rock" when his band of middle-aged horn players was booked to play wedding receptions. If he needed a rock tune, he would bark, "Play Johnny B. Goode" to me, whether or not I had played and sung that song earlier.

    I actually learned to play musically ignorant but plausible-sounding jazz guitar solos by playing with this group. Eventually this leader found a guitarist who could read better than me - a low bar to hurdle at that time - and quit calling me.

  51. #150
    Most good jazz guitar teachers have their students work out of flute,clairinet and violin books I think? One of the best reasons to study non guitar solos is phrasing i.e. breathing instead of boring too many note show off my fast scales techiique type solos . Charlie Christian and Django are called the Fathers of Jazz Guitar as far as I know.Then maybe Tal Farlow and Jimmy Rainey to my favorite WES! I studied with Lenny Breau and he listened to old and new guitar and other instruments ,particularly Bill Evans and Mcoy Tyner which is very evident in his work.Pat Matheny says he likes to study Michael Brecker solos. If a guy is serious he will want the whole thing,because manytop jazz composers are not guitarists.But it took me a lot of years because I love the guitar in many styles to get around to learning from other instruments. My Roland guitar synth helped a lot! It didnt always track great but string pads are not fast! It taught me to think differently. Plus arranging and orchestration classes.