Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Posts 51 to 100 of 162
  1. #51

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Eddie Van Halen wasn't influenced by classical piano, he was just taking lessons as a kid. He lost interest in that by his teenage years. He was primarily influenced by Clapton.
    So what?

    Not only influenced by Clapton.

    Maybe violin as much as piano. Or holdsworth. Or all of the above.

    Eddie name checked Debussy and Bach. He might not have been playing piano at that point but the sounds stayed with him. It’s hard to prove the lines of inspiration either way, but Eruption is not exactly blues rock....

    Anyway, he didn’t invent the technique. Steve Hackett (who didn’t either probably but was tapping arpeggios in the early 70s) was definitely thinking about keys. So we can swap them if you like.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

    User Info Menu

    I don't think there has ever been a great jazz musician that hasn't successfully dealt with the idiosyncrasies and limitations of their instrument. So on the one hand, why wouldn't you want to listen how some of the greatest players of the instrument have dealt with those limitations? The shape based playing of Charlie Christian, Wes' technique of heightening drama by changing textures, etc.

    On the other hand, a long time ago I listened to a famous Pat Metheny lesson where he basically says most jazz guitar players don't really have their time together, and don't really swing. It's probably from the 80s or something. I used to kinda think that what he was saying was maybe true for the time, outdated, etc, but.... As I get older and listen more.... he's kinda still right. There are not that many guitarists that really play on the same level of the very greatest jazz musicians, rhythmically. Like, really not that many at all. Especially when it comes to music that swings.

  4. #53

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    If I think more on this - it was never the timbre of the guitar that I liked. It was the notes. As a matter of fact, I never liked the tone of the guitar. That's why I keep burying it in reverb and chorus for a while. The SOUND of the tenor. That's what I hear in my head. I was just too far along in my college years to change. Then I figured I could contribute more as a guitar player than being another in a long line of tenor players. I liked the tone of Robben Ford. But that's Robben Ford's sound. I don't want to sound like Robben Ford. Why would I? And I don't think that's arrogance. I think that's more Mingus' words.

    This is what has always confused me. I NEVER understood why anyone would want to sound like anyone else. And yes I know. There are times I think I sound like Metheny, or Sco. But that's because those sounds are in my head, I guess. I never tried to. I never thought about how to sound like anybody. But there are some people who spend an inordinate amount of tie actively TRYING to sound like their hero's. I never understood this, beyond perhaps a little insecurity.
    Yep I think I said the same thing more or less above...

    Being able to repeat and imitate phrases by ear is obviously something I advocate a lot - but it’s just what people used to do in the days before mass market guitar transcriptions and so on. And it’s an important thing to do because transcriptions won’t teach you the nuances.... otoh it won’t train your ear either.

    But imitation is never the end goal. Not if you want to be a player.

    I think a lot of people it’s just what they like doing: imitating x or y player. It’s satisfying to get it right and what’s more you know if it’s right. When you are making your own stuff, it’s much harder. There’s no telling whether you are doing the ‘right thing’ or not - you can’t judge it by externals. In fact you might lose work because of it.

    but to me the other thing isn’t really creating anything, it’s just being a skilled craftsman. Creating anything is kind of risky...

  5. #54

    User Info Menu

    Gilad Hekselman's deft use of an octave pedal gets him into the range of a Hammond B-3 and I think he's one of those players who is first and foremost a musician, who happens to play the guitar. Listen to whatever helps you get where you want to go.




  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So what?

    Not only influenced by Clapton.

    Maybe violin as much as piano. Or holdsworth. Or all of the above.

    Eddie name checked Debussy and Bach. He might not have been playing piano at that point but the sounds stayed with him. It’s hard to prove the lines of inspiration either way, but Eruption is not exactly blues rock....

    Anyway, he didn’t invent the technique. Steve Hackett (who didn’t either probably but was tapping arpeggios in the early 70s) was definitely thinking about keys. So we can swap them if you like.
    Maybe, yea, only maybe. But consistently he kept saying Clapton was his man. Holdsworth was his friend and sure influenced him somehow. The technique per se wasn't his invention, but that high gain sound combine with the technique sure was. That was revolutionary. Also, he swings.

    Anyway, the point is, for rock or pop guitarists the inspiration primarily is the guitar, or you wouldn't pick it in the first place. That's what you listen and learn from. For jazz, you don't need to listen to guitarists to learn to play jazz. Of course, only hypothetically, because why wouldn't you.

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    I don't think there has ever been a great jazz musician that hasn't successfully dealt with the idiosyncrasies and limitations of their instrument. So on the one hand, why wouldn't you want to listen how some of the greatest players of the instrument have dealt with those limitations? The shape based playing of Charlie Christian, Wes' technique of heightening drama by changing textures, etc.

    On the other hand, a long time ago I listened to a famous Pat Metheny lesson where he basically says most jazz guitar players don't really have their time together, and don't really swing. It's probably from the 80s or something. I used to kinda think that what he was saying was maybe true for the time, outdated, etc, but.... As I get older and listen more.... he's kinda still right. There are not that many guitarists that really play on the same level of the very greatest jazz musicians, rhythmically. Like, really not that many at all. Especially when it comes to music that swings.
    I think that’s why you kind of have to listen to other instruments.

    There’s a sort of guitaristic version of jazz you often hear from skilled guitar players who aren’t jazz focussed. It always sounds like a collection of licks and it rarely swings because they don’t listen to horn players etc. And yes, I so feel you can get away with that in rock, country etc (but it won’t make you an innovative or interesting player in that field however)

    TBH I find some stock jazz ‘guitarisms’ a bit annoying when perpetuated by other players (esp me lol). It’s good to know them, but sometimes it feels like they are putting it on...

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    The subject of my username claims he never listened to any music at all

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    It actually made me think, in my experience transcribing horn solos, like Parker solos, I often found it so awkward playing on guitar, that I gave up. The fingerings are so not natural, the articulation aspect, I love how it sounds on a sax, but more than underwhelmed how it on the guitar. And all the examples I watch on youtube by very good players copying Birds solos note for note, it's not doing it for me.

    I love listen to horn solos for inspiration, but I don't believe if you copy it note for note on guitar it will sound as great, no matter how good you are. Guitar is just a different instrument, with its own characteristic that you need to explore.

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    Absolutely possible, but why?

    Is a life without Grant Green a life well lived? No. The answer is no, its not.

  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    I suspect Charlie Christian didn't listen to a lot of jazz guitar solos growing up.

  12. #61

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yep I think I said the same thing more or less above...

    Being able to repeat and imitate phrases by ear is obviously something I advocate a lot - but it’s just what people used to do in the days before mass market guitar transcriptions and so on. And it’s an important thing to do because transcriptions won’t teach you the nuances.... otoh it won’t train your ear either.

    But imitation is never the end goal. Not if you want to be a player.

    I think a lot of people it’s just what they like doing: imitating x or y player. It’s satisfying to get it right and what’s more you know if it’s right. When you are making your own stuff, it’s much harder. There’s no telling whether you are doing the ‘right thing’ or not - you can’t judge it by externals. In fact you might lose work because of it.

    but to me the other thing isn’t really creating anything, it’s just being a skilled craftsman. Creating anything is kind of risky...
    Yeah. But that’s it. Insecurity. Playing your own stuff is harder in a sense. It’s also a lot easier. You can always just say that’s the way you play. Jazz is about playing and not second guessing yourself. If you’re constantly holding yourself against X or Y you’re likely never going to hold up. Or you will always be critical because you don’t sound exactly like him or her. You will NEVER sound like them because you aren’t them. Jazz is about YOUR vision. People say that EVENTUALLY you’ll find your own sound. That argument always just sounded weak to me. Why don’t you pay attention to the sounds in your head? THOSE belong to you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    "But is it possible to become a good player, in a functional sense of playing with others, without listening to any guitar players at all (or learning those things from a teacher)?" jobabrinks




    Yes. However, there is a "personality" that all instruments have that is necessary to understand if you want to develop as a complete player. And, I believe there are certain human personalities that allow an instrument to pick you . . . metaphorically speaking. For example, as a pre-teen boy, I became addicted to tenor sax after listening to a real honker in a neighborhood bar with my dad. From that moment, I couldn't think about anything else and within a short time, bought a sax and started to study with a teacher. I moved very quickly because I was literally obsessed with the instrument. It chose me. It was different with the guitar. After leaving Chicago/Miami in my late twenties, I lived in a rural area where playing with ensembles was non-existent and the closest Jazz/R@B clubs were almost 2 hours away. It wasn't enough for me to be a "bedroom artist" and I needed an instrument that didn't require playing with others to perform, and doubling on electric guitar for most of my life, I choose to study Classical guitar. It was the right choice since the more I became acquainted with the pedagogy and repertoire, the deeper I became involved.
    However, the personalities of the instruments(saxophone and guitar) could not be greater. And, after almost 30 years of playing Classical guitar, I still consider myself a saxophonist.
    Now to the second point: "
    is it possible to become a good player, in a functional sense of playing with others, without listening to any guitar players?" The answer is yes, if functionality is your only goal but, in my opinion, to grow within a genre a player needs to listen to as many players as possible in order to go beyond function and reach for a personal voice. As a saxophonist, my early idols were Gene Ammons, Eddie "Lockjaw Davis," Houston Person, Stanley Turrentine, Grover Washington, Hank Crawford, Illinois Jacquet and later-- Coltrane, Zoot Sims, Bird, Dexter, Sonny Stitt, Sonny Criss, Johnny Griffin, Von Freeman among others. It was familiarity with these great players that I developed my own style. Of course, the same is true for both Jazz and Classical guitar. I don't know that I listen to any one Jazz guitarist today that gives me everything I need but, en masse, they create an overall palette of colors to study and enjoy. However, I still think Wes was really a creator and I loved his guitar playing from the first time I heard him in 1962. Among Classical players, the ones that I listen to most often are Segovia, Pavel Steidel, Roland Dyens, Fabio Zanon, the Assad Brothers,and Ricardo Gallen.
    So, if your only goal is functionality--yes. If you're looking for a voice--no. Play live??? . . . Marinero


  14. #63

    User Info Menu

    As Tal 175 states above, Charlie Christian had few, if any, jazz guitar soloists to steal from. His precursors were Eddie Lang and Dick McDonough, who came from the banjo and tried to play "lap piano", as Van Eps put it. So, the answer to the OP's question is simply: Yes.

  15. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    So to answer the OP, totally, if you just want to play jazz, you'll be ok to just listen to horn or piano players and avoid any guitar. Of course, it begs the question, why do you choose to play guitar in the first place, but it's a different topic.
    I think players start playing rock and then slowly get into jazz and then by the time it's their favorite music... that's the instrument they know.

    The funny part about your question is I've heard several trumpet players say ... I wanted to actually play something else but the instrument wasn't available or etc, and so I just went with trumpet.

    But yea, I think quite common actually to play jazz guitar but not have guitar be your favorite instrument in jazz.

    Thanks for the answer.

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    One thing, horn players don't and can't play chords. And there's and endless amount of beautiful chords played by Jazz guitarists. There are even double stops that one wouldn't ever think of playing without hearing other guitarists playing them because the nature of the instrument is different than keyboard instruments.

  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Think the functions of the guitar can be done by piano and horns?
    You may have already learned to play without listening to guitar.
    +1

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I suspect Charlie Christian didn't listen to a lot of jazz guitar solos growing up.
    Charlie Christian is significant because - well have you listened to how most US guitarists played back then? They weren't playing single note solos. Charlie Christian came out of the saxophone, not the guitar.

  19. #68

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Charlie Christian is significant because - well have you listened to how most US guitarists played back then? They weren't playing single note solos. Charlie Christian came out of the saxophone, not the guitar.
    Yeah that was my point.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-16-2020 at 08:50 PM.

  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d
    One thing, horn players don't and can't play chords. And there's and endless amount of beautiful chords played by Jazz guitarists. There are even double stops that one wouldn't ever think of playing without hearing other guitarists playing them because the nature of the instrument is different than keyboard instruments.
    I play double stops because they’re available, not because i heard other guitar players use them. I use them a lot less than I used to because it became a device. I always just called them intervals. It’s fairly easy to do. You know the fretboard and scales/arpeggios and the harmonic layout of the song. I practiced 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths up and down the neck so it was easy.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 08-17-2020 at 08:09 AM.

  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Yeah. But that’s it. Insecurity. Playing your own stuff is harder in a sense. It’s also a lot easier. You can always just say that’s the way you play. Jazz is about playing and not second guessing yourself. If you’re constantly holding yourself against X or Y you’re likely never going to hold up. Or you will always be critical because you don’t sound exactly like him or her. You will NEVER sound like them because you aren’t them. Jazz is about YOUR vision. People say that EVENTUALLY you’ll find your own sound. That argument always just sounded weak to me. Why don’t you pay attention to the sounds in your head? THOSE belong to you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    OTOH Branford Marsalis says - 'don't worry about finding your own voice, if you do your homework, you will' (I paraphrase.) So that's another perspective.

    I think it's a bit of a pendulum.

    One generation grows up around the tradition and the people who made it and values the innovation of jazz, it's futurism. Another feels estranged from that past and seeks to reconnect with tradition.

    Right now I feel we're in the latter area. There's of course a sense the old masters are slipping away as time goes on. Are the younger players enough to sustain that sense of centre? Or are they to indebted to the past to truly be themselves? Was jazz only ever going to produce a few decades of true innovation before passing the torch to other forms? I don't know. Is complicated.

  22. #71

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Well, yes that was mind point.
    Pretty much confirmed by Barney Kessel IIRC, who knew him. Charlie knew who Django was, of course, and the players on the scene.

  23. #72

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d
    One thing, horn players don't and can't play chords. And there's and endless amount of beautiful chords played by Jazz guitarists. There are even double stops that one wouldn't ever think of playing without hearing other guitarists playing them because the nature of the instrument is different than keyboard instruments.
    I think a lot of it depends on your style. It really does.

    Double stops I often hear as two horn arrangements. Often as I work out tunes for trio settings etc, I end up coming up with arrangements based on that. A lot of them fit really well on guitar, and sound great.

    When I hear Wes pay block chords I think 'big band'

    The guitar is different. Chords sound quite different on guitar. I hear a guitarist play a classic 'grip' and I just know it, it's under my fingers already. It's obviously not like that with piano. But that's why the piano stuff can be interesting and useful. Or anything I can't hear right away...

    But; to me 'jazz guitar' is not the same thing as jazz guitar. The thing that really impresses me is stuff like - Peter Bernstein taking Monk voicings and making them somehow so guitaristic with open strings and so on but completely not 'grips' that everyone plays, and they become Peter Bernstein voicings. That's real jazz guitar for me.

    Really, I'm just trying to play music on this silly but beautiful sounding box that doesn't make ANY sense at all.

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    I wonder what Julius Watkins listened to when he was developing his jazz French horn style. If nobody is playing your instrument, either you borrow from another or you make your own style.

    I recall an interview with Larry Coryell, in which he talks both of listening to other guitarists and outside influences. Here are some excerpts:

    In jazz music—at least for me—you have to respond to what the other musicians are doing. You can’t just put your head down like a bull and forge forward. It’s a listening thing.

    On that note, how have you learned to be a deep listener and to respond in the moment?

    Because that’s what everybody told me to do when I was coming up. I’d be chastised if it sounded like I wasn’t listening to the other people.
    ....
    Coltrane was a big influence on everybody, most of my generation, because he was attracted to Indian music and Asian culture, things of that nature. I think that was good for everybody.
    .....
    I grew up in the Southeastern section of Washington State, where there was mostly just country music on the radio. One night I was somewhere out in the country and my radio just happened to pick up a jazz station. I heard this amazing guitar player and I had no idea what he was doing, but I took an immediate interest in it. It turned out it was Wes Montgomery. Such a beautiful tone. There are so many players of my generation who had the same kind of moment the first time they heard those octaves.




  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    If I think more on this - it was never the timbre of the guitar that I liked. It was the notes. As a matter of fact, I never liked the tone of the guitar. That's why I keep burying it in reverb and chorus for a while. The SOUND of the tenor. That's what I hear in my head. I was just too far along in my college years to change. Then I figured I could contribute more as a guitar player than being another in a long line of tenor players. I liked the tone of Robben Ford. But that's Robben Ford's sound. I don't want to sound like Robben Ford. Why would I? And I don't think that's arrogance. I think that's more Mingus' words.

    This is what has always confused me. I NEVER understood why anyone would want to sound like anyone else. And yes I know. There are times I think I sound like Metheny, or Sco. But that's because those sounds are in my head, I guess. I never tried to. I never thought about how to sound like anybody. But there are some people who spend an inordinate amount of tie actively TRYING to sound like their hero's. I never understood this, beyond perhaps a little insecurity.
    ...wow lot of things. Without doubt a horn could be more expressive than a guitar, (Freddie Hubbard, Dexter Gordon and other hundreds of giants) So this is why when I listening a guitar player I am looking for that too (expressiveness), besides the groove. (The "notes" just the third)

    very expressive term "burrying in reverb...". I do love the dry and elegant sound of an archtop, but I agree with you the many imperfectness of a guitar note makes it not pleasant to hear. Interestingly while the imperfectness of a horn note may make te content more close and human, the same nuance errors on guitar makes the experience less enjoyable. But my conclusion is to resist the temptation to "burrying in reverb"

    Regarding the copying, you are completely right, that make no sense. However the "learning from" and "copying" is not the same. I mean learning is always a positive attitude, while copying is best case ambiguous.
    Last edited by Gabor; 08-17-2020 at 12:25 AM.

  26. #75

    User Info Menu

    Yea, a dry electric guitar sound is like a chicken cooked with no seasoning. You'd never want to taste that.

    Sax or trumpet otoh sound delicious by itself.

  27. #76

    User Info Menu

    Of course it's not obvious why one would want to play an instrument they don't like listening to even when played by the masters.

  28. #77

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Of course it's not obvious why one would want to play an instrument they don't like listening to.
    Self expression. It’s a creative tool you know how to play. It’s something that just makes sense. I don’t spend my off time listening to it. I pick it up and want play it. The notes that rumble around in my head - I can easily pull them out on the fretboard. As much as I love the sound of the tenor, I can’t do that.

    Once again for me it’s never been the tone. It’s always been the notes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  29. #78

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Self expression. It’s a creative tool you know how to play. It’s something that just makes sense. I don’t spend my off time listening to it. I pick it up and want play it. The notes that rumble around in my head - I can easily pull them out on the fretboard. As much as I love the sound of the tenor, I can’t do that.

    Once again for me it’s never been the tone. It’s always been the notes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Of course you don't only listen to the instrument you play. But if someone is so not interested in hearing their instrument even when played by the masters to the extend that they worry if they can learn the music by avoiding listening to the instrument altogether, then that could only mean you discovered that you've been playing an instrument that's a very wrong choice for you all along IMO.

  30. #79

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I play double stops because they’re available, not because i heard other guitar players use them. I use them a lot less than I used to because it became a device. I always just called them intervals. It’s fairly easy to do. You know the fretboard and scales/arpeggios and the harmonic layout of the song. I practiced 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths up and down the neck so it was easy.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes, it is a device and not something that should be overused. I loved the double stops Kenny Burrell played which were mostly 6ths and 5ths combinations. It's something I got from listening to him and has become part of my vocabulary - similar to octaves or chord melodies. Check out "Be yourself" and other songs on the "God bless the Child" album.

    I also like Benson's use of octaves with a sixth in between.
    Last edited by bobby d; 08-19-2020 at 07:52 AM.

  31. #80

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Of course you don't only listen to the instrument you play. But if someone is so not interested in hearing their instrument even when played by the masters to the extend that they worry if they can learn the music by avoiding listening to the instrument altogether, then that could only mean you discovered that you've been playing an instrument that's a very wrong choice for you all along IMO.
    Well ok. I think I’ve done pretty good doing it my way. Hm. You see one of the differences is I only talk about me. I would never presuppose or presume to tell someone else how they should or must play the guitar. Never. I told you why I play the guitar and don’t often listen to it. Why are you still insisting I’m wrong?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  32. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Well ok. I think I’ve done pretty good doing it my way. Hm. You see one of the differences is I only talk about me. I would never presuppose or presume to tell someone else how they should or must play the guitar. Never. I told you why I play the guitar and don’t often listen to it. Why are you still insisting I’m wrong?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I wasn't talking about you. Sorry I didn't read all the posts. I was responding to the OP. I thought you were giving one reason for OP's position, I didn't realize you completely overlapped with that sentiment (or may be you don't).

    It's certainly not for me to judge, I'm just puzzled by a guitar player who likes jazz but wants to avoid listening to Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Kenny Burell, Ed Bickert et al. in their journey to learn the craft. (Again I don't know if that describes you, I'm referring to what I understood from OP).

  33. #82

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Charlie Christian is significant because - well have you listened to how most US guitarists played back then? They weren't playing single note solos. Charlie Christian came out of the saxophone, not the guitar.
    Charlie played trumpet before he played guitar. His family was musical. They went around the neighborhood playing for people and getting tips.
    During his teens in the Deep Deuce (an area in Oklahoma City with a lot of clubs) he played a lot of blues as well as swing tunes. It is, I think, fair to say that while Joe Pass sought to avoid playing guitaristic things, everything Charlie did was guitaristic---the grips he used, the way he played out of shapes, the way he held his guitar at an angle (when sitting, and he tended to play sitting) so it would project more.

    Before the electric guitar came along , there was no way for a soloist to be heard above a band with horns. Horn players were the default soloists because horns are loud and can be heard above piano and drums and acoustic bass.

    The more I think about it, the more I think "horn-like" just means "single-note-soloing." Naturally that was the province of horn players back then. Charlie idolized Lester Young and was one the great soloists in jazz but I think absolutely nothing is gained, and something can be easily confused, if one CONTINUES to call Charlie's playing "horn-like." It was guitaristic through and through.



  34. #83

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I wasn't talking about you. Sorry I didn't read all the posts. I was responding to the OP. I thought you were giving one reason for OP's position, I didn't realize you completely overlapped with that sentiment (or may be you don't).

    It's certainly not for me to judge, I'm just puzzled by a guitar player who likes jazz but wants to avoid listening to Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Kenny Burell, Ed Bickert et al. in their journey to learn the craft. (Again I don't know if that describes you, I'm referring to what I understood from OP).
    Well you should read what I write if you’re puzzled. I explained pretty well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  35. #84

    User Info Menu

    " But my conclusion is to resist the temptation to "burrying in reverb" Gabor

    This is an interesting point, G. Due to the nature of an electronic instrument, the player begins to believe that electronic manipulation is the only goal to one's personal sound. And, to a great extent-- it really is. However, for those who play acoustic guitars, especially Classical, there is a cornucopia of sounds that the player has at his disposal if he/she takes the time to develop the technique required for the instrument and discover the infinite sound possibilities inherent in the instrument. There are many electric guitar players that have perfected their electric sound that would, in my opinion, sound abysmal if played on an acoustic instrument without tone controls/amplification since so much is centered around attack, proper technique, and learning the tonal possibilities revealed during developing technique and exploration on a Classical guitar. And, despite the imagined protestations of many on this Forum, there is not a Jazz guitar that exists today that sounds, unamplified, as rich in tone as a quality Classical guitar. . . ergo, the need for amplification to create an electric, manipulated sound. Part of this is the tonewoods used and the other is the nature of the guitar strings that are so different from a Classical guitar.
    Since I've ,seriously, returned to my original 1966 Gibson ES125 ,less than a year ago after a very long sleep, I have been trying to create an electric sound that approximates what my ears want to hear which is based on my natural/personal sound and requires long hours of experimentation with buttons and dials and has very little to do with my technique or ideas. And, although not excessive, reverb is a necessary evil to get the rounded tone so representative of a good acoustic instrument. So, it is, in my opinion, that a rich sound is definitely not the sole territory of very expensive hollow body archtop electric instruments since I have heard some remarkable sounds from Teles, Strats, and semi-acoustic guitars that have been remarkably tweaked, electronically, for sound.
    Finally, I think there are some players, irrespective of skill level, whose main focus is blazing speed at the cost of personal sound and sadly, total musicianship suffers. To paraphrase Henry in a previous post, one's personal sound should be a number one goal for a musician since, like the human voice, it distinguishes us from others.
    Here's Roland Dyens for an example of Jazz played on a Classical instrument. Play live! . . . Marinero





  36. #85

    User Info Menu

    The question is-why would you want to limit yourself? Listen to any music that you are fond of and don't limit your listening by the type of instrument.

  37. #86

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Well you should read what I write if you’re puzzled. I explained pretty well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    OK I read what you wrote. It seems like you didn't rule out guitar early on but you listened to a lot of guitar players. But in the end most musicians that spoke to you were players of other instruments. I certainly can understand that. Great musicians that resonate with us can come in any instrument. They don't have to play the same instrument as the player who learns from them.

    My interpretation of OP that he/she is at an early stage in their development (hence the getting started section) but ruling out all the great guitar players due instrumental preferences. Maybe I misunderstand OP's reasons but that's what it sounded like to me.

  38. #87

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Yea, a dry electric guitar sound is like a chicken cooked with no seasoning. You'd never want to taste that.

    Sax or trumpet otoh sound delicious by itself.
    The guitar like all instruments depends on the acoustic... however we can fake an acoustic if we want! :-)

    A smidgeon of Reverb goes a long way.

    I do admire players who go dry though. Esp with a bit of crunch. Krantz, Lage; brave players!

    OTOH listening to the amplifier sound ‘on beam’ is always an unpleasant experience. Other musicians don’t seem to understand this lol.

  39. #88

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I wasn't talking about you. Sorry I didn't read all the posts. I was responding to the OP. I thought you were giving one reason for OP's position, I didn't realize you completely overlapped with that sentiment (or may be you don't).

    It's certainly not for me to judge, I'm just puzzled by a guitar player who likes jazz but wants to avoid listening to Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Kenny Burell, Ed Bickert et al. in their journey to learn the craft. (Again I don't know if that describes you, I'm referring to what I understood from OP).
    I think people always respond to the music they respond to. Tbh I love those guys but the amount of their music I’ve sat down and worked on is actually quite small in relation to other players that for whatever reason I was more drawn to (both guitar and other instruments.) I’ve done maybe one Wes solo?

    The thing that drives you to dive deeply into someone’s music - work out their lines and so on - is a mysterious and deeply beneficent impulse and following it will make you unique and individual, because we are all drawn to different stuff.

  40. #89

    User Info Menu

    Possible and probable are two different things. Yeah, it's possible. Others have already posted many examples of great jazz guitarists who cite non-guitarists as primary influences.

    When I was in school, we guitarists were encouraged strongly to listen to and transcribe non-guitarist solos; that was great advice, and I did do that a lot. But as someone who was still learning the mechanics of playing technique and conceptualizing lines/style that were suited to execution on guitar, I got more out of transcribing Pat Martino, Wes and Larry Carlton than Bird, even though I listened to (and stole ideas from) everybody.

  41. #90

    User Info Menu

    I was just listening to an online concert and heard a guitarist I wasn't familiar with.

    He had a classic jazz style. Meaning, he played a lot of very cool sounding lines, which I've heard other guitarists play.

    My guess is that he has studied a lot of guitarists.

    You occasionally hear a guitarist who doesn't play that way. Maybe those are the players who didn't listen to guitarists as much.

    Hard to name them, but Charlie Christian leapt to mind -- you can hear him in Lester Young's recordings that Charlie could have heard. And, there wasn't much single note soloing on guitar on record back then, although I've read that Charlie had heard Django. I don't hear any similarity though.

  42. #91

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    More importantly, can I learn to play jazz guitar without listening to any jazz? It’s a bit of a nuisance.
    Right, all it takes is learning all 462 seven note scales and maybe another couple hundred 8 and 9 note scales then learning 3 octave scale patterns and practicing them until you can get to 16th notes at quarter = 180

  43. #92

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d
    One thing, horn players don't and can't play chords...
    They usually can't play more than note simultaneously, but some might be able to play two simultaneously if that is what you are referring to. They can play arpeggiated chords.

  44. #93

    User Info Menu

    Here is a horn player playing chords


  45. #94

    User Info Menu

    Here is another horn player playing chords (go to 1:30):


  46. #95

    User Info Menu

    Well... horn players as you say cannot really play chords like on a guitar but they know how they are made, some guitarists (not a lot here I think) think about shapes, tabs...
    This is why some say guitarists have to think like horn players (not in shapes and tricks).

  47. #96

    User Info Menu

    I think you could become a good jazz guitarist without listening to much jazz guitar. You could totally learn single-note soloing by just listening to sax players and working stuff out on the guitar based on their lines.
    That assumes you already know how to play the guitar though of course.

    When it comes to chords and comping, you would need to listen to guitarists otherwise you would end up doing things in a way that might piss off other people in a band. Understanding other people's expectations of your role as an accompanist would be tough unless you'd listened to examples of guitar comping.

    If the OP means 'could you take jazz guitar lessons and learn from them, but not really listen to much jazz guitar?' then the answer is yes, sure. But in those jazz guitar lessons you would of course be listening to jazz guitar!

  48. #97

    User Info Menu

    I learned comping by listening to Red Garland.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  49. #98

    User Info Menu

    Can you become a good jazz guitar player without listening to guitar?

    I don't know why you ask the question. Why would you not listen to guitar if you play guitar?

  50. #99

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Can you become a good jazz guitar player without listening to guitar?

    I don't know why you ask the question. Why would you not listen to guitar if you play guitar?
    Why would one prefer to learn to play jazz from jazz guitarists, just because she/he plays the guitar?

  51. #100

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Why would one prefer to learn to play jazz from jazz guitarists, just because she/he plays the guitar?
    I didn't say that. I meant why exclude the guitar? Why exclude anything? Listening is learning, whether it's to music or anything else.

    Apart from the obvious fact that you're not going to learn much about what's possible on a guitar by only listening to other instruments.