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Hey guys,
I'm new here.
I have a basic knowledge of the CAGED system and how triads and seventh chords are constructed.
Now i wonna learn triads and inversions across the whole fretboard.
What would be the best way to learn what notes are exactly in a triad and how to visualise them across the neck?
How did you learn triads?
Thanks for the help!
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07-20-2020 12:48 PM
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Each 7-note scale provides a set of 7 triads, each with 3 shapes. 1 triad and 2 inversions.
Harmonic minor has a surprise for you.
I just went in and played the triads and those 2 inversions as you would play a scale. So - tie them all to your patterns or shapes or whatnot.. or licks.. or some ear magic.. They better get connected or they will be only a theoretical help.
Then I used good old simple tunes and played a triad or an inversion with the top note as the melody note. A few sounds fun, a few sounds wrong. Still fun though
It's also possible to play jazz tunes like that. It takes a bit of work to figure out how it goes - with changing of keys and all. I might post an example later this week - it's kinda cool.
I'm not finished though (learning myself), there are a lot of things you could use the triads for. Abundance of bonus options.
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But be warned, triads are not the be-all and end-all for good soloing. They're not very melodic and are no substitute for learning the boring old 'ordinary' stuff first. It takes a lot of advanced musicality to really use triads effectively and it all takes a load of work.
My advice is look carefully before you leap. Triads are not a quick fix to soloing.
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If that's not enough negativity (!) look at this:
Jens Larsen - YouTube
He's done LOTS of triad videos. Ask yourself why it needed so many...
Somebody who's already mastered the basic stuff like chords, arpeggios, altered scales, jazz phrasing and vocab, etc, can very likely use triads as effectively as Jens or others. But if you're just starting that would be a different kettle of fish altogether.
Just saying.
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You might want to obtain a copy of this book: Chord Connections: A Comprehensive Guide to Guitar Chords and Harmony by Dr Robert Brown It covers exactly what you asked for.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
One more thing - imo, a triad is the most powerful basic note combo expression-wise. And it can sound so lame when used wrongly exactly for the same reason.
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Originally Posted by emanresu
I know, wet blanket :-)
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Interval numbers.
If a particular string/fret location is a minor 3rd, do you know what the nearby locations are?
Also, the CAGED system is an expression of the interval numbers illustrated by the 'Five Shapes.'
For instance, the C-chord lies within the shape that starts with the Major 3rd on the low-E string.
If you really want a headache heres a lesson on using triads to imply big stuff in context:
Maybe SloeGin might want to give more detail.
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using basic triads..close and open voiced..and their inversions on all strings sets in all keys expanded my harmonic and melodic playing ALOT ..
then adding a bass note below the triad and treating it as a moving voice stretched my ears to hear "harmonized scales" and progressions stemming from just one chord movement
the van epps / ted greene and others approach to harmony and melodic voice movement has triads as a vital part of this study
as a pivotal part of jazz theory..the basic triad-in part or whole- then can be used as upper structures to all chord types and functions
to me it makes the guitar less illogical and the ability to view it more like a keyboard .. the ideal - bill evansLast edited by wolflen; 07-20-2020 at 05:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by SloeGin
Screw everything else, triads are the single most important thing. For every style of western music. And remarkably handy for jazz.
You need to know what shapes are close voiced. Luckily there's only three of them for any string group. So, close voiced triads you have 12 shapes, and most of them are based on familiar shapes... So, for F, say:
x x x 2 1 1
x x x 5 6 5
x x x 10 10 8
x x 3 2 1 x
x x 7 5 6 x
x x 10 10 10 x
x 3 3 2 x x
x 8 7 5 x x
x 12 10 10 x x
5 3 3 x x x
8 8 7 x x x
13 12 10 x x x
- Learn in all keys, there's your major.
- Now identify the third (good exercise), take it down a fret and you have your minors.
- Identify the fifth and put it down a semitone and you have a diminished triad.
- Alternatively, take the major and put the 5th up a semitone and you have augmented, which is fewer shapes (4)
That'll get you started. There's the spread/open voicings as well...
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x x x 2 1 1
x x 3 2 1 x
x 3 3 2 x x
5 3 3 x x x
x x x 5 6 5
x x 7 5 6 x
x 8 7 5 x x
8 8 7 x x x
x x x 10 10 8
x x 10 10 10 x
x 12 10 10 x x
13 12 10 x x x
Reformatted Christian's offering to show my additional entry approach (along with his example) into triad study.
Combined you are then addressing vertical and horizontal fretboard movements.
Not really triads formally, but I always included Mab5 (1 3 b5) and Sus (1 4 5) chords as part of this game.
For my own purposes, I think of them as prefixes along with the standard triads, building blocks of 7th chords.
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In my opinion, a valid reference for the use of triads in (Jazz) musical context can be found in Bert Ligon "Jazz Theory Resources", Vol.1 & 2 - not specific for guitar.
As an aside: nobody uses (for melodic purposes) triad fingerings on two strings?
Like (for G maj - root position):
G: string 6/fret 3; B: string 5/fret 2; D: string 5/fret 5
+ same fingering on strings set 4-3 starting on fret 5
+ same fingering on strings set 2-1 starting on fret 8...
Sergio
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Originally Posted by bako
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But it's easy to get overwhelmed.
Start with the majors and minors in close position.
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Yes, but how does a beginner use them without sounding like a robot? That's the question, not just put your fingers here and here.
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I find LISTS of things (eg triads in this case) very difficult to assimilate generally
(you maybe OK with learning lists of things , which is cool)
So how I do the major triads all over the neck ,
is to look at the them (root , Ist and and inversions) as revealed in the CAGED shapes
There's a boat load of them in there .....
and they sound pretty broken up like that too (also the diads)
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And then (or possibly at the same time)
I have a look at the nearest I , IV and V shapes
eg in G
G xx543x the I chord
C xx555x the IV chord
D xx423x the V chord
I always do them in the context of a tune (a I IV V tune)
You get the Triads , the Diads , you learn the geography of the neck (the so-called one big shape)
and you build on and re-enforce your knowledge of the CAGED system
make sure you have fun with it ....
Get out in that Kitchen at rattle them Pots and Pans !
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Learn the proper stuff first, then embellish it with triads - not the other way round!
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Christian's point about being overwhelmed is valid although we all have different
tolerances for how long we can proceed on a given task while being partially in the
dark about what this all means. In that spirit let me add one more that I think of as
a comparative approach.
Once the major is learned simply change whatever is different to form the next chord type:
Major: 1 3 5
Augmented: 1 3 #5
Minor: 1 b3 5
Diminished: 1 b3 b5
C E G > C E G#
C E G > C Eb G
C E G > C Eb Gb
E G C > E G# C
E G C > Eb G C
E G C > Eb Gb C
G C E > G# C E
G C E > G C Eb
G C E > Gb C Eb
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I dunno about you Bako, I drop what I think is a minimal amount of specific and relevant info in a lesson and very often students look like their heads are about to implode. Easy to overlook how much stuff you’ve picked up over the years.
Never give out too much jazz info... It’ll all end up like Scanners lol... And seeing this is on the ‘getting started’ thread.
i think we are being reasonably consistent. Once learned just spend some time with Parker heads for instance ...
But info itself is cheap. Application and internalisation takes ages...
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And seeing this is on the ‘getting started’ thread.
I wonder if noticing this would change my overload tendency.
When questions are posed on the forum, there could be a dozen different responses before
the OP re-enters the conversation. This is a less than perfect learning scenario.
On a good day the OP will walk away with something tangible to work on.
Teaching one on one is a far more subtle experience that better allows us to adjust as needed.
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There is a really good study group on Garison Fewell's book active now on the forum. I can't think of a better introduction to triad centric soloing than his book "Jazz Improvisation for Guitar, A Melodic Approach", and you get the benefit of an active study group. What are you waiting for? Go check it out.
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Originally Posted by bako
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Yeah. I think the real bottleneck with triads is the human mind and attention span. That being said, I found the best way to learn them to be just spending some time with chord melody playing , utilizing triads in non-jazz styles.
Like has been stated above, there are only three inversions of each. You can really get major and minor going on one string set in relatively short time. Then, there are other string sets.
Came up with basic rules. Utilizing mostly upper neighbor replacement of the top voice to accommodate tensions/non-chord tones. I utilize dim triads mostly for dominants. Anyway,I really went down the rabbit hole with that for a while. Eventually found it much more interesting than playing jazz and didn't apply it there.
So maybe don't try it? Ha!
Anyway , eventually I realized that this is what William Levitt lays out in volume 3 of his modern guitar method. I never actually learned it out of that book though ; never got that far. I think he covers most iterations : melodization of triads, open, closed, 3-note dominant etc etc.
you can get some really nice non- jazz playing technique from this. Sounds really nice on acoustic as well and is just a fun way to play . I can post more common examples etc. if anyone was interested , but it's really a distraction to actual jazz . :-)
TLDNR: it's possible that learning to utilize triads as legit lower structure elements may be the mental hack toward eventually knowing where things are enough to utilize as actual upper structure jazz improv devices.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
x 3 x 4 5 3
Part 2 Secrets to McCoy Tyner using 4ths,...
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