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Originally Posted by bobheff
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06-16-2020 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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To the OP, can you post a brief clip of you playing a tune? This is all extremely abstract, and I think what you're getting by way of responses is mainly people going off on tangents about what works for them to solve problems that are probably not the problem you're having. If we hear you, someone may have something more directly relevant to say. In the interim, I'll say two things:
1. Up thread, in your post with the Barry Greene video you speculate that he thinks about the things he's saying in the video while soloing. I'd bet he rarely if ever does that. Rather, he practices and studies those things so that patterns, sounds, and solutions to common harmonic situations (e.g., ii V I's) become ingrained into his playing without him having to think much on the fly. In his actual demonstrations of scales and positions, if you pay attention you'll notice that he keeps throwing in stuff like chromaticism and triplets that are not part of the explanation. That, plus the subtle variations in swing feel and syncopation he brings to his scale playing is where the jazz lives. Note choices, scales, patterns, etc. are important but they're not jazz per se, and improvisation is not just stringing together bits of scales over chord progressions.
2. Improvisation is creating and expanding on melodies. For that, rhythm and phrasing are more important than note choice, especially when it comes to the question of "why don't I sound like jazz?". You clearly understand a fair bit about music theory and guitar method/technique. Probably enough. Listen to/imitate phrasing for a while and experiment there. Play around with your 1/8 note feel, explicitly move between exaggerated swing and straight 1/8 feel. Do all of this over tunes (not exercises), without even thinking about the notes or caring whether you're playing right/wrong notes. Just work on rhythmic feel for a significant portion of your practice routine.
[now you're gonna post a clip of you blowing perfect bebop phrasing, and I'm gonna feel completely hoist on my own petard, but until then ...]
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
I won't comment on my own playing but I must say that recording myself and listening back to it has been an interesting experience and is something I should do more often.
Be gentle!
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Originally Posted by bobheff
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+1
There's a lot that's really nice here. I really like the way you play the tune for example. Perhaps you could go deeper with this and keep varying the melody more and more.
I would say in general - try and cop a few more phrases from recording to get a deeper feel for the rhythm and phrasing.
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Originally Posted by bobheff
One way to get there is to learn all of your positional fingerings so well that you don't have to think about them. Then learn how to shift between positions. It sounds like you are working on that first goal of learning your fingerings. Good! Keep it up.
Avoid thinking that there is "one correct way" to do anything. Right off the top, I can think of CAGED, Segovia scales, the "vertical scale" approach that metal shredders like Paul Gilbert use, and the one-finger-per-fret single-position chromatic fingering approach that stretches index or pinky out of position to reach the chromatics that don't fall under an in-position finger. None of these approaches are "best" or "wrong" but you should pick ONE approach for your initial efforts and really learn it cold. Then you have a basis on which to compare or contrast the benefits and drawbacks of other approaches.
Originally Posted by bobheff
Originally Posted by bobheff
IDK about the "best" way but I did the following to master fretboard navigation. Warning: it's labor-intensive, but it worked well for me and if I had it to do again, I'd do it this way again.
1) Draw an extra horizontal line all the way across some musical staff paper (so you have six lines that represent the six strings of the guitar). Draw vertical lines to represent frets; for each position you'll need five frets. Now write out one scale in one key in every position all the way up the neck as a dot pattern. You can buy this as a poster or find it in any number of books, especially the rock-shredder ones, but if you figure it out yourself and write it out yourself, it'll help you to remember it better. In each position, circle the root note or highlight it with a yellow highlighter so you can ID the root note easily. Here's an example of what I mean, but do NOT cheat and print this, DO write it out yourself!
2) Now learn to play and to hear this scale in all of those positions. For example, let's say you wrote out the key of G major. Your dot-chart shows not just G major, but all of its modes. At pos II the dots are F# locrian, at pos III the dots show G Ionian, at pos V the dots show A Dorian, at pos VII you have B Phrygian, at pos VIII you have C Lydian, at pos X you have D Mixolydian, at pos XII you have E Aeolian, and at pos XIV (also at pos II) you have F# Locrian. One way to practice this is to play the chord or loop it, then play the arpeggio, then play modal scale over it. Learn to sing any of these arpeggios and scales without guitar in hand.
3) You now know the sounds (and one set of fingerings) of all the modes of G. Repeat for the other 11 keys in Circle of Fourths or Circle of Fifths order. You should discover rather quickly that you actually know all the fingerings already; they've just shifted position. As a student, I wrote all of this down in a staff-paper spiral notebook that I have apparently lost. That's how I know that I know this :-) If I can dig it out, I'll post a page just for grins.
4) NOW you have the raw knowledge you need to play any key in any position. For example, if you are in Pos II, in which your first finger is on the 2nd fret, you have under your fingers F# Locrian, G Ionian, A dorian, B Phrygian, etc... or by stretching index out of position to Pos I, you can play F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian... basically, you can realize the fingering for ANY scale/mode in ANY position according to where the root note is in that position.
5) As I worked through this, I discovered that there were a handful of common fingerings, such as one in which the root is under the first finger (like playing F maj in Pos II with index extended out of position to Pos I), another in which the root was under the second finger (like playing G maj in PosII) and another in which the root is under the fourth finger (like playing A Maj in Pos II) and another like playing D maj in pos II). I never actually studied CAGED but this is basically the same thing: each of these fingerings incorporates an open-position major chord grip that you already know. I thought of these fingerings as "left" "center" and "right" or as "index", "2nd finger" and "pinky" based roots. I think this is what Barry is getting at in his video but I didn't have time to watch it. So, now you need to go back over all the modal scales in all the positions and learn to play the "left" "center" and "right" fingering of each. For example, play Amaj in Pos II (aka "left-facing" fingering), then Amaj in Pos IV (aka "center or straight-across-position" fingering) and then Amaj in Pos V (aka "right-facing" fingering). Lather, rinse, repeat in all 12 keys.
FYI: Steps 1-3 took me about three years of daily practice. Step 4 was taught to me in one hour at my first lesson with Steve Erquiaga; since I already had two years of undergrad theory and classical guitar lessons under my belt at that time, I understood the approach right away, but it took me another year of intense daily practice to be able to actually do it in semi-real time. Step 5 probably took about another year. Basically, I just worked on all of this stuff every day till I could play any scale or mode or arpeggio in any position. Years later, Jackie King showed me how to float freely between positions; again this was something fairly easy to understand that took a lot of practice time to realize.
Getting back to your original question, you seem to be doing the right things, in that you are learning the entire fretboard. Learning arpeggios will help you to identify the strong notes and chord sounds that each mode embodies. But you also need to learn to "think like a jazz player" and the way to do that is by copying ideas that appeal to you. You don't necessarily have to write things down in standard notation so much as to learn some harmonic vocabulary and phrasing that isn't rock pentatonics. Don't wait to start doing this, do it while you work on filling in the gaps in your fretboard knowledge. To paraphrase others' advice, play musically now with what you already have, instead of waiting till later to apply a bunch of theoretical stuff. The expanded fretboard-navigation knowledge will appear in your playing when it's ready.
One last bit of unsolicited advice: it's common to tell aspiring jazz players to copy things from instruments other than their own. While it certainly is great for you to listen to Bill Evans or Bird or Ella, - any jazz, really - in the near term, you will probably get more mileage out of stealing from other guitarists, like Joe Pass, or Wes or Charlie Christian... at least that was my experience.
I hope this helped!Last edited by starjasmine; 06-16-2020 at 04:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by bobheff
Unlike vocalists, guitarists don't have to stop their phrase to take a breath. That's the small bit of practical advice I would offer: try to create phrases that have a definite beginning and ending. Leave some space between phrases. Like you are a trumpet player, sax player or vocalist who has to pause long enough to take a breath.
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Originally Posted by bobheff
On the B section, you're not really hitting the changes. The simplest way to do that is to think of the C7b9 as Edim7 and play diminished scale runs over that chord (or just move up and down in minor 3rds from E natural). Use the same sort of device over F#dim7, and then you're back to ii V in Cmin, so use find a way to fit in notes from G altered dominant scale (i.e., find places where you can use D#, Ab, and A# in and around B and F).
Slow iRealbook down, and just play with those tones until you find ways you like them on the changes.
As far as rhythm goes, there are some time issues -- you come in late quite often, as though you hear the change first and then play a note. Common issue we all have. It's fine to be a little late as a deliberate effect, but try to be right on the beat more. Do also play off-beats, but play them as off-beats, not as late on-beats. Experiment with starting and phrases on different beats and with leaving different amount of space between phrases.
Use more triplets. Try playing measures of 1/4 1/4 1/4-note-triplet 1/8 1/8. Then move the triplet to different beats, and fill the rest of the measure with 1/4's and 1/8's and rests. At least at first, you don't need to do this in time, fast, or even caring about what notes you play. Just get the feel of inserting triplets at different points in a measure and with different length tones or rests before and after.
Hope that's helpful.
John
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Originally Posted by bobheff
I started off learning major scales
Then found placing those chord tones made a huge difference.
That meant really getting stuck into arpeggios.
But musical phrasing is a must do so when I want to come up with a solo I ...
Go through the song with arpeggios only many times
Go through still arpeggios but filling in between appropriate scale tones
Work out a nice solo phrase for each song area - fit those in bit by bit
Takes forever but ends up sounding good - and your guitar shows you things along the way
Loved your solo - keep it going
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This is my first post here an I could be best described as a neophyte. Although I've created music for more than twenty years or so it's been with experimental electronics so all ears a less classical theory.
I've taken to jazz guitar as a platform for understanding and learning how to access the sounds I love but my problem is I'm all ears and much less theory and dexterity.
I have a simple question: I'm reading about Jens Larsens 7 positions of a C Major scale 3nps in trying to get an understanding of the whole fretboard. What's a best way to approach learning the positions for a layman? Do I just have to memorize each shape, if so when I change key are there a new set of shapes to memorize. How are these shapes defined, why do they start and end a those particular positions on the fretboard? (apologies that's numerous questions)
My approach has been to memorize 2212221 and just figure it out, if I know the root I can go backwards or forwards to the next root note. Scales can be long and thin or go up and down.
I appreciate this is really basic stuff but a helpful push in a certain direction would help me mitigate the information overload from reading and watching YT videos.
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My approach has been to memorize 2212221
by a whole step.
(221) 2 (221)
Each interval has 2 viable fingerings, in this case one on the same string and one on the adjacent string. An average size hand can span up to a major 3rd on a single string. This makes it possible to accommodate all the 3 note interval sequences in the major scale (there are 3).
22 // 21 // 12 //
In the key of C:
22 - CDE // FGA // GAB
21 - DEF // ABC
13 - EFG // BCD
These 3 hand shapes form the basis of all 3 note per string fingerings.
3nps fingerings tilt slightly upward which is likely why fingerings that integrate at least one 2nps move (usually on the G or B string) are more common because they all reside with 5 frets.
Another orientation that is useful is simply to remember the half steps
btw 3-4 and 7-8.
Beyond using any mental constructions as an aid to finding the notes is the gradual internalization of the scale sound from different harmonic orientations.
Over time, all the internal intervals are just sounds that will lead your
fingers to the correct major or minor interval within the confines of
the scale.Last edited by bako; 08-07-2020 at 07:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rmro
Regarding fingerings, people debate about this but just know that fingering "systems" are a matter of personal preference.
If you want to use stretchy fingerings go ahead, but just know that they are harder on the hands - and especially the first finger - which you should preserve for the long haul. Furthermore, a stretched finger doesn't point down straight at the fretboard, so can effect tone and control. So, depending on what kind of guitar and strings you use, and whether you play clean or with lots of effects, it can matter.
The first finger takes a greater beating from guitar playing than the other fingers. I would advise to anyone who would listen to mitigate the amount of wear and tear it takes over time.
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Welcome to the World Of Diverse Opinions.
Here's a minority view.
If you're at the point where you're trying to learn the fretboard, do it this way.
Learn to read.
Get a beginner's book that shows you what the notes are on the fretboard. Start down by the nut and learn the notes in the first four frets. Get your Twinkle Twinkle Little Star sounding great.
Then, get Colin and Bower's Complete Rhythms book and start figuring out the lines in first position. When that gets old hat, figure out how to play them an octave higher.
A few months work and you know the fretboard and you can read all over it. If you want to pursue reading further, you'll have the foundation. It will also help, later on, with learning all kinds of useful things, like different scales, arps, chord voicings etc.
Then, you can learn you major scales. You'll know where the notes are and you can find the fingering that fits your physiology. Personal experience: I learned 3nps first, many years ago. I never use it any more. I found more comfortable fingerings for my hand. Others love 3nps. There are terrific players with blinding speed who do it each way.
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Thank you for the replies, it's a little intimidating asking these questions given the experience and knowledge on here.
I appreciate the approach of starting right at the beginning—I actually just received a copy of 'A Modern Method for Guitar: Volumes 1' after reading the study group thread and thought it would be a good place to start in earnest.
I think for me I have to separate my own music making from strict learning.
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Originally Posted by Rmro
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Originally Posted by Rmro
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Ok thanks, I'm just looking at section 2. Could you explain why I'd skip section 1—is it because the open position isn't used in a jazz context?
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I wouldn't skip it unless you already know the material.
Open strings are a powerful tool, so you need to know those notes.
Whether you employ open strings in your playing depends on what you're trying to sound like.
You probably don't hear them so much in bop style playing, but you hear them a lot in some solo guitar styles.
And, even in playing fast passages, sometimes judicious use of an open string can make something playable that you can't play up to speed any other way.
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The rational for skipping that section is based on the fact that w/o open strings exists a versatile world of movable shapes which can help open up the rest of the fingerboard. That said, I wouldn't skip those pages.
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Originally Posted by bako
After I heard/saw Guinga up close, using the power of open strings to create amazing harmony, I changed my attitude about it. Of course, he wasn't the first, I mention him because of the impression he made on me.
Open strings are inherently guitaristic. So, if you're trying to sound like a horn, open strings don't seem terribly relevant. If you're trying to sound like a piano, they may help a bit. If you're trying to fully exploit the possibilities of guitar, they're an important tool, even though they may not help you play a bop solo in Ab -- and there are exceptions to that rule.
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Originally Posted by Rmro
I’m not saying “never use open strings or cowboy chords” or anything like that.
Here's the point - William Leavitt was a brilliant guitar arranger and made the material very challenging. As a result, you may well spend more time in that section than you should, feeling the need to be a good guitar soldier.
Here’s one way to look at it - what percentage of time does the average jazz guitar performance commit to playing in the open or first position? (Head, comp, solo). 2%?
Now, depending on the time invested and approach taken, it can take about 4 years to get through Leavitt’s method (or for that matter, other methods and/or combinations thereof).
So, how much time should you spend in Section One of Volume 1 (or any study devoted 100% to the open and first positions)?Last edited by GTRMan; 08-10-2020 at 10:25 AM.
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The main motto of Leavitt's book is - "Don't skip or slight anything but also do not try to perfect everything before moving further", he says this right on the first page.
There is a lot more in the Section 1 than just playing open strings - the book is essentially a collection of steadily advancing exercises: on reading - linear, chord and rhythm recognition, fingerings and picking patterns. Thus, it makes no sense to skip anything if one is to follow the method with a reasonable thoroughness. If you can read and play, it should not take much time to go through Section 1 to make oneself familiar with the 'flow' of the book and possibly to identify and address gaps - it will get only more challenging further.
If one is a beginner in reading and/or technically -- skipping the 1st section, one probably also needs to skip the rest of the book. Even if one survives the first page of Section 2 with scales, the next page with a chord etude will make him put the book away. Open position is not going away completely, to be noted, in etudes, solos etc - scalar exercises are those which are strictly positional.
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Originally Posted by Danil
Back to non-beginners like the OP. Working Section 1 in parallel with Section 2 is another option. The thing to avoid is deferring position playing to some future rainy day.
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If anyone reading this thread is still unfamiliar with William Leavitt's Modern Method but is considering the plunge, think twice before skipping over Section 1. Only the advanced reader who is extremely busy could consider that some serious skimming might be advantageous here.
Section 1 of WLMM can serve as a self-test of the student's reading level, so it behooves everyone to go through it. If you read through Section 1 without a hitch, then hardly any time was lost while you gained a familiarity with the style of the book. However, if you find that your reading is becoming difficult, as I did when reading vertical chord stacks, it's a sign that you should find a very basic reading book to help get you up to speed. (Or just keep reading Section 1 over and over until you can...)
I bought William Leavitt's Berklee Basic Guitar Phase 1 and 2 as a companion book. There are many such books, such as the superb Mel Bay series, but the BBG and the MM are both in Leavitt's style.
Since the WLMM was meant to be a serious college level guitar method, rather than a 'play for fun and profit' pamphlet, it had no need to include a beginner's primer. In those days, students were expected to have already gone through Mel Bay's primary series with a music teacher.
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