The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Just keep copying Grant Green solos, it’s as good a method as any.

    It’s also probably how Grant Green learned (i.e. I expect he copied solos by someone he liked).

    It’s certainly how I learned, I copied solos and phrases by Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Charlie Parker and Dexter Gordon, predominantly.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    hey Dreamingjazz...

    Yea... if you want to play jazz, it takes a lot. There is a big difference between being able to actually play Jazz or in a jazz style and .... memorizing some jazz tunes or working out, rehearsing some music.

    GTR's general advice is good...

    You need to make some life decisions... figure out who and what you are, how you work etc... there are plenty of guides as to how to understand yourself, maybe you already do. Anyway that's where you start.
    Your on the family road... that pretty much needs to be #1 right.

    Now your ready to try and put together a plan as to how get the jazz thing together, decide where you want to go or get.

    Just for the record, you look and sound like getting into Something like Micky Baker books would work for you along with organized schedule of practice to get your technical skills together. You have a ways to go...

    You need a written down schedule of material to go through and how much time to spend on the details. That will change as you move along.

    If you want to put together the material... you'll need help.

  4. #78

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    Don't be discouraged, anything worthwhile takes time and effort, and progress is incremental. Always remember- Family first, music when possible. Good luck!

  5. #79

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    First, congratulations on posting your playing. That can be a scary thing. Don't be ashamed of your playing. Everyone is at a different level and had different goals.
    Second, if you don't want to use a pick that is fine. I thought that was a strange comment. Wes Montgomery?
    Third, analyse the solo you learned. This might be very slow and time consuming. At first. Figure out how EACH note relates to the chord. IE is it the root of the cord, the third or the fifth. Or some other note. In a C major chord, C is the root, E is the third (three notes up) and G is the 5th (5 notes up from c).
    Take it bar by bar. You will note recognize the sound/feel/tone colour of a root, third or fifth played above a chord and can use that to make your own solo later.
    Fourth, buy a method book. Mickey Baker's is inexpensive (ten bucks). It's a good start. What he has you doing doesn't make sense at first. But do it anyway.
    Fifth, practise consistently. Do it everyday. Even if it's 15 minutes. You are developing muscle memory.

    Remember it's supposed to be fun. End each practise with a song you know and love. End on a high note.



    Here is the first little bit of the song you posted. I think it's an F major chord.
    First note it's an A. This is the 3rd of the chord.
    Second note is D. This is the 6th of the chord.
    Third note you play is a G. That is the 2nd of Fmaj.
    Fourth note is F# this is a "strange" note. The chord is now Bb minor. F is the 5th. So F# is the 5th but raised. That's why it's sounds a little weird, a little jazzy.
    Carry on.
    Last edited by Littlemark; 08-21-2020 at 01:30 PM.

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    Second, if you don't want to use a pick that is fine. I thought that was a strange comment. Wes Montgomery?
    It's called plectrum guitar for a reason. It's the majority technique by far, Wes was a very rare exception. I would say don't make it any harder on yourself than you have to. Fingerstyle for steel strings is a challenge, especially when it comes to playing rapid, complex lines, which of course jazz specilaizes in.

    Joe Pass used both in his later years but he was playing solo jazz guitar (i.e. no band) and we all know the story as to how that started... Plus he put his pick in his mouth so that when it was time to really go on the single line stuff he could articulate successfully.

    Ironicallly, when Grant Green was asked about Wes he said (paraphrasing) "yeah he really needs to quit playing with that thumb and get a pick".

  7. #81

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    This thread is about Jazz guitar not plectrum guitar.

    You don't think relearning how to play the instrument is harder?
    If the OP didn't already play guitar for 15 years or whatever, sure.
    Jazz is about the what notes you choose moreso than how they are sounded sound. How dare Parker play Jazz on a plastic sax. Don't even think about Jazz on a solid body guitar or flat top.

    Focus on the notes.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark

    Remember it's supposed to be fun.
    Oh, yeah, I forgot :-)

  9. #83

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    Plectrum guitar?

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    Plectrum guitar?

  11. #85

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    It just means "pick style" guitar, guys. That was the point - pick.

    And yes, it's very old fashioned terminology. And yes, thumb and/or fingers ARE a choice as one's primary technique.

    Just choose carefully, hehe.

  12. #86

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    But is refers to the technique, not the guitar. Fingerstyle guitar refers not to a certain type of guitar, but to the technique.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamingJazz
    Hi guys OP here;

    20 August 2020

    I thought maybe I should follow up on this and show you guys progress.

    I asked you guys about tips and tricks and how to learn jazz. So here it is.

    Down Here On The Ground - Grant Green,

    My first Jazz tune!! Forgive the sloppy playing! I’m trying to learn Jazz the easiest way possible. For now, i can only copy by ear. I cannot solo yet or follow rhythm or do jazz chords. But Grant Green got me into really diving into this as I enjoy his music.


    GOOD. Don't listen to anything to the contrary on this massively industrialised bullshit farm we call the internet. Listen to and learn the music you love and learn it by ear. No better way.

    Thanks for posting your playing. You'll be fine.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-21-2020 at 07:06 PM.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    But is refers to the technique, not the guitar. Fingerstyle guitar refers not to a certain type of guitar, but to the technique.
    I'm well aware, just as I am aware that nylon strings spaced widely apart suits fingerstyle ideally, while steel string guutars with a narrow nut width suit pick playing. One can pick a classical and one can pluck a steel string, but both are sub-optimal. Some well known players have managed to adapt quite well, obviously. Just so long as we recognize that's what they're doing - adapting.

    If one wants to do that it's certainly fine by me, but I would advise any player who is looking for advice on how to get started, to go with conventional technique first.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    I'm well aware, just as I am aware that nylon strings spaced widely apart suits fingerstyle ideally, while steel string guutars with a narrow nut width suit pick playing. One can pick a classical and one can pluck a steel string, but both are sub-optimal. Some well known players have managed to adapt quite well, obviously. Just so long as we recognize that's what they're doing - adapting.

    If one wants to do that it's certainly fine by me, but I would advise any player who is looking for advice on how to get started, to go with conventional technique first.
    The op is not getting started.
    I think you are dismissing the huge number of Blues guitar players who use their fingers.
    Nevermind the ones who hybrid pick or use a thumb pick. Or even Brian May who uses coins.
    My main point is, you don't need to use a pick to play Jazz guitar.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    dreamingjazz -

    I've no idea what to say to you. I may have been blunt but I certainly wasn't trying to bully or belittle you.

    After all, any activity approached with serious intent requires time spent, dedication, commitment, application, and so on. But, if one's time is short, the old adage of quality above quantity certainly applies. It would still apply even if one does have the time.

    All right, you have a full-time job and a small child, obviously time-consuming and unquestionably coming first above playing the guitar!

    So if you have, say, only 15 minutes a day, what will you do with it? An hour would be better because that gives you time to settle, get into it, and all that.

    Incidentally, 35 is nothing, you have energy at 35. But, of course, if you were 75 you'd have more time :-)

    See, it depends on how much you know already. Apparently you don't read music, you know some pentatonics, some chords, that kind of thing... and you want to sound like Grant Green. That tune seems not a bad place to start. It's more about syncopation than clever lines, etc.

    You must have heard the Wes Montgomery version, have you? To my ear there's real feeling there, it swings... I prefer it :-)



    So what will you do? When I was learning, many moons ago, I did what I wanted. I strummed songs I liked. I only took up note playing because people kept telling me to play a solo. I sort of got there eventually.

    You need to know jazz chords, that's first. Then you need to know the tune, that's second. Then you need to learn a tune you like, that interests you.

    After that, it takes study, research, looking at various versions, ways of playing, finding out. It will come sooner or later, but you have to understand it takes time, lots of time. BUT you don't think in terms of time. That is impatience and doesn't work. You just do what you're doing because that's where you are.

    I can only say keep going. Do what you want, apply yourself logically, and I'm sure it'll work out.
    thanks for the advice,

    yes I did hear Wes Montgomery’s version, and it was also beautiful, however, i heard Grant Green’s first and it was more on kind of sounding a bit bluesy which is I am familiar of, and would be easier for me to learn as it is a familiar sound rather than full blown jazz song.

    another thing Why I want to at least learn a bit of principles and standards is to be able to make sense of what I’m copying. I know it would be very hard to make sense of something in jazz compared to analyzing a rock song solo and I also know there are many ways to skin a cat, so what I “think” the guitarist might be thinking, turn out to be a very different thing, but at least Id be able to tell, okay he’s in the key of D, and it revolves around this scale/mode/shape or whatever and I’ll be able to apply that same thinking/sound to other things rather than just blatantly copying solos to fit a certain song

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    My advice would be general here.


    • Just keep going and don't worry about life's demands, find the time that you can,
    • That said, try for 45 minutes per day, more on weekends - you can make real progress with that over time!
    • Use a pick,
    • Learn to read - a tool who's value will become more and more apparent as you progress,
    • Play strapped - neck up a little bit more than you are doing now with the horizontal position of the guitar,
    • Continue learning by ear but get a few great books as well (do BOTH)


    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    First, congratulations on posting your playing. That can be a scary thing. Don't be ashamed of your playing. Everyone is at a different level and had different goals.
    Second, if you don't want to use a pick that is fine. I thought that was a strange comment. Wes Montgomery?
    Third, analyse the solo you learned. This might be very slow and time consuming. At first. Figure out how EACH note relates to the chord. IE is it the root of the cord, the third or the fifth. Or some other note. In a C major chord, C is the root, E is the third (three notes up) and G is the 5th (5 notes up from c).
    Take it bar by bar. You will note recognize the sound/feel/tone colour of a root, third or fifth played above a chord and can use that to make your own solo later.
    Fourth, buy a method book. Mickey Baker's is inexpensive (ten bucks). It's a good start. What he has you doing doesn't make sense at first. But do it anyway.
    Fifth, practise consistently. Do it everyday. Even if it's 15 minutes. You are developing muscle memory.

    Remember it's supposed to be fun. End each practise with a song you know and love. End on a high note.



    Here is the first little bit of the song you posted. I think it's an F major chord.
    First note it's an A. This is the 3rd of the chord.
    Second note is D. This is the 6th of the chord.
    Third note you play is a G. That is the 2nd of Fmaj.
    Fourth note is F# this is a "strange" note. The chord is now Bb minor. F is the 5th. So F# is the 5th but raised. That's why it's sounds a little weird, a little jazzy.
    Carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    It's called plectrum guitar for a reason. It's the majority technique by far, Wes was a very rare exception. I would say don't make it any harder on yourself than you have to. Fingerstyle for steel strings is a challenge, especially when it comes to playing rapid, complex lines, which of course jazz specilaizes in.

    Joe Pass used both in his later years but he was playing solo jazz guitar (i.e. no band) and we all know the story as to how that started... Plus he put his pick in his mouth so that when it was time to really go on the single line stuff he could articulate successfully.

    Ironicallly, when Grant Green was asked about Wes he said (paraphrasing) "yeah he really needs to quit playing with that thumb and get a pick".
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    This thread is about Jazz guitar not plectrum guitar.

    You don't think relearning how to play the instrument is harder?
    If the OP didn't already play guitar for 15 years or whatever, sure.
    Jazz is about the what notes you choose moreso than how they are sounded sound. How dare Parker play Jazz on a plastic sax. Don't even think about Jazz on a solid body guitar or flat top.

    Focus on the notes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    Plectrum guitar?
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    It just means "pick style" guitar, guys. That was the point - pick.

    And yes, it's very old fashioned terminology. And yes, thumb and/or fingers ARE a choice as one's primary technique.

    Just choose carefully, hehe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    But is refers to the technique, not the guitar. Fingerstyle guitar refers not to a certain type of guitar, but to the technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    The op is not getting started.
    I think you are dismissing the huge number of Blues guitar players who use their fingers.
    Nevermind the ones who hybrid pick or use a thumb pick. Or even Brian May who uses coins.
    My main point is, you don't need to use a pick to play Jazz guitar.
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    I'm well aware, just as I am aware that nylon strings spaced widely apart suits fingerstyle ideally, while steel string guutars with a narrow nut width suit pick playing. One can pick a classical and one can pluck a steel string, but both are sub-optimal. Some well known players have managed to adapt quite well, obviously. Just so long as we recognize that's what they're doing - adapting.

    If one wants to do that it's certainly fine by me, but I would advise any player who is looking for advice on how to get started, to go with conventional technique first.
    hi guys, OP here, i do use a pick, plectrum, triangular plastic shape card, coin, whatever you want to call it.

    Here is me, in how I play in church (if its against the rules to post something religious, feel free to delete, but this is mostly showing how I play, How I sound, how I am in my element.

    Im the one with the sunburst and daphne blue tele. I am very present in the mix, you can clearly hear me cut through, thanks to the telecaster. But seriously, i think its got to do with the engineer or my amp having a very middy tone (Peavey Classic 30)








    heres one when I was trying to do my own version of Little Wing. Not the best though.



    however, for the video I posted above on Grant Green’s song, I am in fact was torn in between using a pick and playing with my thumb/fingers.. ultimately the smoother tone, warmer feel, won and thus I played with my thumb/fingers instead.

    i am not used to EQ’ing jazz tones as you may have noticed. Instead I am trying to connect to my guitar, to the feelings involved in playing jazz and trying to be a bit more involved in feeling and playing.

    when I finally learn the whole song, I will post a vid of me playing standing up, playing with a pick. I dont know when that’ll be though. The next parts after that first chorus is a bit of a task. Im only used to copying solos 3-4 bars and very rarely exceed a minute or two, okay, yeah well, some blues players exceed that, but I really never tried learning 6-7 minutes of guitar soloing, let alone, learning a jazzy song. So please bear with me.
    Last edited by dreamingJazz; 08-22-2020 at 09:59 PM.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    hey Dreamingjazz...

    Yea... if you want to play jazz, it takes a lot. There is a big difference between being able to actually play Jazz or in a jazz style and .... memorizing some jazz tunes or working out, rehearsing some music.

    GTR's general advice is good...

    You need to make some life decisions... figure out who and what you are, how you work etc... there are plenty of guides as to how to understand yourself, maybe you already do. Anyway that's where you start.
    Your on the family road... that pretty much needs to be #1 right.

    Now your ready to try and put together a plan as to how get the jazz thing together, decide where you want to go or get.

    Just for the record, you look and sound like getting into Something like Micky Baker books would work for you along with organized schedule of practice to get your technical skills together. You have a ways to go...

    You need a written down schedule of material to go through and how much time to spend on the details. That will change as you move along.

    If you want to put together the material... you'll need help.
    thank you, this is exactly why I posted here, to ask for help in getting the right materials. I realize that there are probably hundreds of books/materials, but being a beginner in jazz and even music theory, I am soliciting advice on which road to take, maybe a mix of a lot of things from different people, from people who knows more than me, and more experienced, so i can learn. And be better

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    First, congratulations on posting your playing. That can be a scary thing. Don't be ashamed of your playing. Everyone is at a different level and had different goals.
    Second, if you don't want to use a pick that is fine. I thought that was a strange comment. Wes Montgomery?
    Third, analyse the solo you learned. This might be very slow and time consuming. At first. Figure out how EACH note relates to the chord. IE is it the root of the cord, the third or the fifth. Or some other note. In a C major chord, C is the root, E is the third (three notes up) and G is the 5th (5 notes up from c).
    Take it bar by bar. You will note recognize the sound/feel/tone colour of a root, third or fifth played above a chord and can use that to make your own solo later.
    Fourth, buy a method book. Mickey Baker's is inexpensive (ten bucks). It's a good start. What he has you doing doesn't make sense at first. But do it anyway.
    Fifth, practise consistently. Do it everyday. Even if it's 15 minutes. You are developing muscle memory.

    Remember it's supposed to be fun. End each practise with a song you know and love. End on a high note.



    Here is the first little bit of the song you posted. I think it's an F major chord.
    First note it's an A. This is the 3rd of the chord.
    Second note is D. This is the 6th of the chord.
    Third note you play is a G. That is the 2nd of Fmaj.
    Fourth note is F# this is a "strange" note. The chord is now Bb minor. F is the 5th. So F# is the 5th but raised. That's why it's sounds a little weird, a little jazzy.
    Carry on.
    thank you!

    also another exact thing why I post. To learn what Im copying and not just copying. I want to analyze what is happening, what are notes, why, what makes it tick, what makes it sound like this, or that.

    like i said above there are many ways to skin a cat, but what Im trying to do is to maybe just learn one effective way, and be able to apply that to other things. What scale/shape/mode was it, and how I can tweak that to my flavor, but still be theoretically correct and knowledgeable to know WHEN and WHERE it can be applied.

    am i making any sense?