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  1. #51

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamingJazz View Post
    Hi Guys,

    OP HERE.

    Thanks for all the responses. Like I said, I’m a noob. I’m not a pro. At the most I am a hack. I did not have the privilege to study music theory when I was young due to finances. I grew up poor and have little resources to study back then.


    anyway, fast forward to now.. i cant say I can play blues well. I dont, all I’m saying is I am familiar with the minor and major pentatonic scale and have been able to apply that to my playing and have been successful in spicing up the way I approach “contemporary church music”..

    one friendly fellow Pm’ed me and gave me a good recommendation to get a book by Joe Pass, sound of modern Harmony and Melody. And I bought it. However, being not able to read music, this is where I am sidetracked and have to at least find a crash course to read music.

    my guitar teacher gave me some basic lessons on sight reading, but reading the book feels like reading rocket science. (I’m a civil engineer, so i know how daunting it feels if I came across a problem, a formula that I do not know how to use/apply). although i really feel that this book has a lot to offer, i just need to get myself over that barrier and be able to read music.

    i can post a photo of my notes and let you evaluate what my teacher has taught me and where I am in music.

    i appeal to the more knowledgeable people to consider me as someone who dont know how to play guitar. (Ive taught a few people who dont know anything about road design, by approaching it like they dont have ANY engineering principles so i had to go slow, detailed but not overwhelming, and step by step.

    the way I thought about it is this, given a simple song progression;

    G, D, Em, C

    the way I would play or approach that is, to do different chord voicings, or pick some notes from the major and minor pentatonic scale that would sound good in that progression so as not to step on the other guitarist’s sonic footprint and to differentiate my playing from him, and to cut through using notes that spice up that song without being loud. Am I making any sense?

    so I would solo in G major/minor pentantonic, at least thats what I got from listening to a lot of rock,blues-rock songs. I did try to use the whole note scale and it did sound jazzy but thats it. I have no more ammo in my magazine.

    like all of you, i want to improve, but I dont have all the time in the world, and given the situation, i cant hire my teacher again because 1. He left for his home country, 2. Time differences, 3. Money.

    So I’m just asking the nice jazz people for some direction and hopefully a bit of structured process so i can maximize my time practicing 15minute bursts 3-4x times a day. And be able to play and add jazz principles in my style of playing.

    I hope I explained myself well and clear though. English is not my first language.

    i love listening to Julian Lage, Robben Ford, Miles Davis, (most recently) Grant Green, Pat Metheny, BB King, Eric Clapton, Buddy Guy, Robert Cray, and a bunch more.
    I come from a similar background and I would agree with the people who say just try and copy the stuff you like that's 'jazzy' and if you can't figure out how to integrate it into your playing, get someone to help you. But post examples.

    Getting into straight jazz properly is a whole 'nother animal and is almost like learning another instrument. You're going to have to re-learn and correct a lot of things you did as a 'rock hack'. That is my experience and opinion...

  4. #53

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    I’d agree with that. I’d say that I think it helps your playing overall in the long run, but it’s not something you can really just ‘tack on’?

  5. #54

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    So where is dreamingjazz after all this? We got hung up on the blues somewhat, probably my fault.

    I think I'd tell him to take a tune that he really likes, because that does help, and learn to negotiate his 2-5's, then what to do over a major chord (or a minor if it's in minor) then slot the rest in after that (dims, etc).

    Something like that anyway. It's a helluva task.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    So where is dreamingjazz after all this? We got hung up on the blues somewhat, probably my fault.

    I think I'd tell him to take a tune that he really likes, because that does help, and learn to negotiate his 2-5's, then what to do over a major chord (or a minor if it's in minor) then slot the rest in after that (dims, etc).

    Something like that anyway. It's a helluva task.
    What I did was focus on Satin Doll for a few weeks; Breaking it down into sections based on the changes.

  7. #56

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    What i do is this:
    i purchased iReal pro.
    download some interesting chordprogressions and try and improvise over it. Over and over again. After a while i come up with some interesting things. After a while i don't feel like i'm playing in a certain key, but do my thing. Once the progression is in my head i 'know' when to play a certain note or lick.
    it helps a lot.

  8. #57

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    It seems dreamingjazz's favorite venue is the gear section, which probably says it all :-) He posts there regularly.

    As if having the 'right' guitar with the 'right' strings and the 'right' amp is going to make someone a good player... dream on

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    What I did was focus on Satin Doll for a few weeks; Breaking it down into sections based on the changes.
    For a few weeks? What were you doing? It's not that difficult.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Very interesting. Why the dilettante fails...

    'It's better to play something simple and real within the form than try to imitate advanced stuff you don't understand'

    'Well, we don't have time... we enjoy messing around...'

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamingJazz View Post
    Hi Guys,

    OP HERE.

    Thanks for all the responses. Like I said, I’m a noob. I’m not a pro. At the most I am a hack. I did not have the privilege to study music theory when I was young due to finances. I grew up poor and have little resources to study back then.


    anyway, fast forward to now.. i cant say I can play blues well. I dont, all I’m saying is I am familiar with the minor and major pentatonic scale and have been able to apply that to my playing and have been successful in spicing up the way I approach “contemporary church music”..

    one friendly fellow Pm’ed me and gave me a good recommendation to get a book by Joe Pass, sound of modern Harmony and Melody. And I bought it. However, being not able to read music, this is where I am sidetracked and have to at least find a crash course to read music.

    my guitar teacher gave me some basic lessons on sight reading, but reading the book feels like reading rocket science. (I’m a civil engineer, so i know how daunting it feels if I came across a problem, a formula that I do not know how to use/apply). although i really feel that this book has a lot to offer, i just need to get myself over that barrier and be able to read music.

    i can post a photo of my notes and let you evaluate what my teacher has taught me and where I am in music.

    i appeal to the more knowledgeable people to consider me as someone who dont know how to play guitar. (Ive taught a few people who dont know anything about road design, by approaching it like they dont have ANY engineering principles so i had to go slow, detailed but not overwhelming, and step by step.

    the way I thought about it is this, given a simple song progression;

    G, D, Em, C

    the way I would play or approach that is, to do different chord voicings, or pick some notes from the major and minor pentatonic scale that would sound good in that progression so as not to step on the other guitarist’s sonic footprint and to differentiate my playing from him, and to cut through using notes that spice up that song without being loud. Am I making any sense?

    so I would solo in G major/minor pentantonic, at least thats what I got from listening to a lot of rock,blues-rock songs. I did try to use the whole note scale and it did sound jazzy but thats it. I have no more ammo in my magazine.

    like all of you, i want to improve, but I dont have all the time in the world, and given the situation, i cant hire my teacher again because 1. He left for his home country, 2. Time differences, 3. Money.

    So I’m just asking the nice jazz people for some direction and hopefully a bit of structured process so i can maximize my time practicing 15minute bursts 3-4x times a day. And be able to play and add jazz principles in my style of playing.

    I hope I explained myself well and clear though. English is not my first language.

    i love listening to Julian Lage, Robben Ford, Miles Davis, (most recently) Grant Green, Pat Metheny, BB King, Eric Clapton, Buddy Guy, Robert Cray, and a bunch more.
    This thread has spun out into every direction offering little direction to dreamingJazz...

    Let's look at G, D, Em, C and see what could be done with it using pentatonic scales and their combinations.

    Things to know about...

    Notice the pairs of major and minor pents that are the same notes:

    G major pentatonic (same as E minor pentatonic)
    D major pentatonic (same as B minor pentatonic)
    C major pentatonic (same as A minor pentatonic)

    Notice that if you combine the notes of major and minor pentatonic you get dorian with added major 3rd

    For example, G major pentatonic plus G minor pentatonic is G dorian plus major 3rd
    G A B D E G plus G A# C D F G equals G A A# B C D E F G where B is the major third
    For reference, let's call this combined scale form "dorian3"

    In rock and blues, there are basically three approaches - minor, major, and dominant.

    Minor approach rock/blues of G D Em C - Few possibilities, this is typical of minor mood approaches
    G - play G minor pentatonic
    D - play G minor pentatonic or play D minor pentatonic
    Em - play E minor pentatonic
    C - play C major pentatonic

    Major approach rock/blues of G D Em C - May play G major pent all the way through or change through the others
    G - play G major pentatonic
    D - play G major pentatonic or play D major pentatonic
    Em - play G major pentatonic or play E minor pentatonic
    C - play G major pentatonic or play C major pentatonic

    Dominant approach rock/blues of G D Em C - Lots more possibilities
    G - play G dorian3 (G major or minor pentatonic, or mix freely from both)
    D - play G dorian3 or D dorian3, or both*
    Em - play E dorian3
    C - play C dorian3

    *notice that combining G dorian3 and D dorian3 is
    G maj pent plus G min pent plus D maj pent plus D min pent
    So this may be thought as mixing freely from either G or D major or minor pentatonic
    or G A A# B C D E F F#

    That should be enough to work on for a while.

  12. #61

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    This thread has spun out into every direction offering little direction to dreamingJazz...
    No, it hasn't. It's too general a question to be answered in any detail. He's been given general guidance. He has no background, he doesn't read music. Apparently it's mostly church music by ear, and that using pentatonics.

    He needs to start pretty well from scratch... and he's said he hasn't got any time. And he's not responding here any more. Not recently anyway. Last one on the whole forum was about 3 weeks ago.


    By the way, what's 'Dorian 3'? I know what Dorian means but I've never heard of Dorian 3, or Dorian 1 or 2 either!

  13. #62

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    Pents are easy to hear, easy to see, and easy to play... but hard to manipulate, coordinate, etc. with respect to harmonic execution (if one is trying to go in the jazz direction). As I wrote, dorian3 is a made up name for ease of reference; combining pentatonic major and pentatonic minor results in dorian with an added major third, so in an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., G major and minor pentatonic, the short form of indicating that is G dorian3. This makes things a little easier to conceive when the next step is an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., D major pentatonic or D minor pentatonic or G major pentatonic or G minor pentatonic... easier to think of as superposition of D dorian3 and G dorian3.

  14. #63

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    This could be your first stop: Free Jazz Guitar Lessons
    Religious music is not unknown in jazz, gospel tunes always found a way into some spirited jazz musician's repertoire. This is a fine example Feelin' the Spirit - Wikipedia

    To get out of the trap of pentatonics and scales in general I did follow that route:
    1. Learn to phrase in a "jazzy" way with whatever material you have in your box (the pentatonic scale) – Grant Green is a wonderful and accessible example as is Kenny Burrell – Listen!
    2. Learn songs – you can start with spirituals and jazz blues which should not overtrain your harmonic knowledge – how about Midnight Blue by Kenny Burrell as a start? There is even a transcription of the head and even of his solo available online (Google it) – very nice and very accessible. Try to understand the logic of the lines he plays with regard to the chords. Yes, the best way to learn is to figure it out yourself! Listen to the phrasing as much as to the actual notes he plays. Now you are already on the road for more sophisticated material – but take your time.
    3. Learn arpeggios (basically play the notes that are in the chord) – and learn to incorporate them into your playing as soon as you learned them.
    4. Learn "jazz scales" like these 7 Easy Jazz Guitar Scales For Beginners and also the "bebop scale" – and again learn to use the material musically as soon as you figured out the fingering.
    5. Add passing notes, chromatics etc. to glue it all together

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    dorian3 is a made up name for ease of reference; combining pentatonic major and pentatonic minor results in dorian with an added major third, so in an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., G major and minor pentatonic, the short form of indicating that is G dorian3. This makes things a little easier to conceive when the next step is an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., D major pentatonic or D minor pentatonic or G major pentatonic or G minor pentatonic... easier to think of as superposition of D dorian3 and G dorian3.
    And that was supposed to enlighten the OP who already doesn't know what he's doing? Words fail me.

  16. #65

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    No, that was supposed to enlighten you and the question you asked because of not reading the whole post.
    To enlighten the OP, I went step by step including an example.

  17. #66

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    Yeah I’m not sure there’s much point trying to teach someone until you know how they play

    i actually think there’s far too much of that on JGO, and I have to work hard not to end up doing it myself.

  18. #67

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    What's going on here? You've posted videos watched by countless people, of how they play you know nothing, but when someone who has played for 20 years, plays a regular church gig with other musicians, takes guitar lessons, and requests help on this jazz forum, you're "not sure there’s much point trying to teach someone until you know how they play"?

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    What's going on here? You've posted videos watched by countless people, of how they play you know nothing, but when someone who has played for 20 years, plays a regular church gig with other musicians, takes guitar lessons, and requests help on this jazz forum, you're "not sure there’s much point trying to teach someone until you know how they play"?
    All true. I'm developing my ideas a bit. Self reflection is a good thing no?

    I think it's kind of a non helpful thing to do and I'd like to do it less.

    I just feel it clogs everything up, and although I FEEL my info is helpful, I look at the average thread and think OMG.

    I might post a YT vid if I feel it's relevant to the thread, but yeah. Not sure if its the best thing. You can make information available; but that's not really teaching. The internet is FULL of information. More information is not the answer. Actually what students really need is someone to help them decide what to concentrate on.

    When people post a little playing I feel the advice gets more specific and helpful; tends to be more coherent and is MUCH less likely to go down the usual rabbit holes we go down.

    Of course I reserve the right to totally fail at this haha. But I think it's a good policy for JGO regulars to observe to ask players to post playing. What do you think?

    That said, not sure about this fella. I think he REALLY needs a good teacher.

  20. #69

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    I see, and I have noticed increasing requests for samples of playing. I must admit, I can determine more from a few seconds of playing than from anything and everything else combined. Maybe dreamingJazz will follow through with something to hear.