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  1. #51

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamingJazz
    Hi Guys,

    OP HERE.

    Thanks for all the responses. Like I said, I’m a noob. I’m not a pro. At the most I am a hack. I did not have the privilege to study music theory when I was young due to finances. I grew up poor and have little resources to study back then.


    anyway, fast forward to now.. i cant say I can play blues well. I dont, all I’m saying is I am familiar with the minor and major pentatonic scale and have been able to apply that to my playing and have been successful in spicing up the way I approach “contemporary church music”..

    one friendly fellow Pm’ed me and gave me a good recommendation to get a book by Joe Pass, sound of modern Harmony and Melody. And I bought it. However, being not able to read music, this is where I am sidetracked and have to at least find a crash course to read music.

    my guitar teacher gave me some basic lessons on sight reading, but reading the book feels like reading rocket science. (I’m a civil engineer, so i know how daunting it feels if I came across a problem, a formula that I do not know how to use/apply). although i really feel that this book has a lot to offer, i just need to get myself over that barrier and be able to read music.

    i can post a photo of my notes and let you evaluate what my teacher has taught me and where I am in music.

    i appeal to the more knowledgeable people to consider me as someone who dont know how to play guitar. (Ive taught a few people who dont know anything about road design, by approaching it like they dont have ANY engineering principles so i had to go slow, detailed but not overwhelming, and step by step.

    the way I thought about it is this, given a simple song progression;

    G, D, Em, C

    the way I would play or approach that is, to do different chord voicings, or pick some notes from the major and minor pentatonic scale that would sound good in that progression so as not to step on the other guitarist’s sonic footprint and to differentiate my playing from him, and to cut through using notes that spice up that song without being loud. Am I making any sense?

    so I would solo in G major/minor pentantonic, at least thats what I got from listening to a lot of rock,blues-rock songs. I did try to use the whole note scale and it did sound jazzy but thats it. I have no more ammo in my magazine.

    like all of you, i want to improve, but I dont have all the time in the world, and given the situation, i cant hire my teacher again because 1. He left for his home country, 2. Time differences, 3. Money.

    So I’m just asking the nice jazz people for some direction and hopefully a bit of structured process so i can maximize my time practicing 15minute bursts 3-4x times a day. And be able to play and add jazz principles in my style of playing.

    I hope I explained myself well and clear though. English is not my first language.

    i love listening to Julian Lage, Robben Ford, Miles Davis, (most recently) Grant Green, Pat Metheny, BB King, Eric Clapton, Buddy Guy, Robert Cray, and a bunch more.
    I come from a similar background and I would agree with the people who say just try and copy the stuff you like that's 'jazzy' and if you can't figure out how to integrate it into your playing, get someone to help you. But post examples.

    Getting into straight jazz properly is a whole 'nother animal and is almost like learning another instrument. You're going to have to re-learn and correct a lot of things you did as a 'rock hack'. That is my experience and opinion...

  4. #53

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    I’d agree with that. I’d say that I think it helps your playing overall in the long run, but it’s not something you can really just ‘tack on’?

  5. #54

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    So where is dreamingjazz after all this? We got hung up on the blues somewhat, probably my fault.

    I think I'd tell him to take a tune that he really likes, because that does help, and learn to negotiate his 2-5's, then what to do over a major chord (or a minor if it's in minor) then slot the rest in after that (dims, etc).

    Something like that anyway. It's a helluva task.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    So where is dreamingjazz after all this? We got hung up on the blues somewhat, probably my fault.

    I think I'd tell him to take a tune that he really likes, because that does help, and learn to negotiate his 2-5's, then what to do over a major chord (or a minor if it's in minor) then slot the rest in after that (dims, etc).

    Something like that anyway. It's a helluva task.
    What I did was focus on Satin Doll for a few weeks; Breaking it down into sections based on the changes.

  7. #56

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    What i do is this:
    i purchased iReal pro.
    download some interesting chordprogressions and try and improvise over it. Over and over again. After a while i come up with some interesting things. After a while i don't feel like i'm playing in a certain key, but do my thing. Once the progression is in my head i 'know' when to play a certain note or lick.
    it helps a lot.

  8. #57

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    It seems dreamingjazz's favorite venue is the gear section, which probably says it all :-) He posts there regularly.

    As if having the 'right' guitar with the 'right' strings and the 'right' amp is going to make someone a good player... dream on

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    What I did was focus on Satin Doll for a few weeks; Breaking it down into sections based on the changes.
    For a few weeks? What were you doing? It's not that difficult.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Very interesting. Why the dilettante fails...

    'It's better to play something simple and real within the form than try to imitate advanced stuff you don't understand'

    'Well, we don't have time... we enjoy messing around...'

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamingJazz
    Hi Guys,

    OP HERE.

    Thanks for all the responses. Like I said, I’m a noob. I’m not a pro. At the most I am a hack. I did not have the privilege to study music theory when I was young due to finances. I grew up poor and have little resources to study back then.


    anyway, fast forward to now.. i cant say I can play blues well. I dont, all I’m saying is I am familiar with the minor and major pentatonic scale and have been able to apply that to my playing and have been successful in spicing up the way I approach “contemporary church music”..

    one friendly fellow Pm’ed me and gave me a good recommendation to get a book by Joe Pass, sound of modern Harmony and Melody. And I bought it. However, being not able to read music, this is where I am sidetracked and have to at least find a crash course to read music.

    my guitar teacher gave me some basic lessons on sight reading, but reading the book feels like reading rocket science. (I’m a civil engineer, so i know how daunting it feels if I came across a problem, a formula that I do not know how to use/apply). although i really feel that this book has a lot to offer, i just need to get myself over that barrier and be able to read music.

    i can post a photo of my notes and let you evaluate what my teacher has taught me and where I am in music.

    i appeal to the more knowledgeable people to consider me as someone who dont know how to play guitar. (Ive taught a few people who dont know anything about road design, by approaching it like they dont have ANY engineering principles so i had to go slow, detailed but not overwhelming, and step by step.

    the way I thought about it is this, given a simple song progression;

    G, D, Em, C

    the way I would play or approach that is, to do different chord voicings, or pick some notes from the major and minor pentatonic scale that would sound good in that progression so as not to step on the other guitarist’s sonic footprint and to differentiate my playing from him, and to cut through using notes that spice up that song without being loud. Am I making any sense?

    so I would solo in G major/minor pentantonic, at least thats what I got from listening to a lot of rock,blues-rock songs. I did try to use the whole note scale and it did sound jazzy but thats it. I have no more ammo in my magazine.

    like all of you, i want to improve, but I dont have all the time in the world, and given the situation, i cant hire my teacher again because 1. He left for his home country, 2. Time differences, 3. Money.

    So I’m just asking the nice jazz people for some direction and hopefully a bit of structured process so i can maximize my time practicing 15minute bursts 3-4x times a day. And be able to play and add jazz principles in my style of playing.

    I hope I explained myself well and clear though. English is not my first language.

    i love listening to Julian Lage, Robben Ford, Miles Davis, (most recently) Grant Green, Pat Metheny, BB King, Eric Clapton, Buddy Guy, Robert Cray, and a bunch more.
    This thread has spun out into every direction offering little direction to dreamingJazz...

    Let's look at G, D, Em, C and see what could be done with it using pentatonic scales and their combinations.

    Things to know about...

    Notice the pairs of major and minor pents that are the same notes:

    G major pentatonic (same as E minor pentatonic)
    D major pentatonic (same as B minor pentatonic)
    C major pentatonic (same as A minor pentatonic)

    Notice that if you combine the notes of major and minor pentatonic you get dorian with added major 3rd

    For example, G major pentatonic plus G minor pentatonic is G dorian plus major 3rd
    G A B D E G plus G A# C D F G equals G A A# B C D E F G where B is the major third
    For reference, let's call this combined scale form "dorian3"

    In rock and blues, there are basically three approaches - minor, major, and dominant.

    Minor approach rock/blues of G D Em C - Few possibilities, this is typical of minor mood approaches
    G - play G minor pentatonic
    D - play G minor pentatonic or play D minor pentatonic
    Em - play E minor pentatonic
    C - play C major pentatonic

    Major approach rock/blues of G D Em C - May play G major pent all the way through or change through the others
    G - play G major pentatonic
    D - play G major pentatonic or play D major pentatonic
    Em - play G major pentatonic or play E minor pentatonic
    C - play G major pentatonic or play C major pentatonic

    Dominant approach rock/blues of G D Em C - Lots more possibilities
    G - play G dorian3 (G major or minor pentatonic, or mix freely from both)
    D - play G dorian3 or D dorian3, or both*
    Em - play E dorian3
    C - play C dorian3

    *notice that combining G dorian3 and D dorian3 is
    G maj pent plus G min pent plus D maj pent plus D min pent
    So this may be thought as mixing freely from either G or D major or minor pentatonic
    or G A A# B C D E F F#

    That should be enough to work on for a while.

  12. #61

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    This thread has spun out into every direction offering little direction to dreamingJazz...
    No, it hasn't. It's too general a question to be answered in any detail. He's been given general guidance. He has no background, he doesn't read music. Apparently it's mostly church music by ear, and that using pentatonics.

    He needs to start pretty well from scratch... and he's said he hasn't got any time. And he's not responding here any more. Not recently anyway. Last one on the whole forum was about 3 weeks ago.


    By the way, what's 'Dorian 3'? I know what Dorian means but I've never heard of Dorian 3, or Dorian 1 or 2 either!

  13. #62

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    Pents are easy to hear, easy to see, and easy to play... but hard to manipulate, coordinate, etc. with respect to harmonic execution (if one is trying to go in the jazz direction). As I wrote, dorian3 is a made up name for ease of reference; combining pentatonic major and pentatonic minor results in dorian with an added major third, so in an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., G major and minor pentatonic, the short form of indicating that is G dorian3. This makes things a little easier to conceive when the next step is an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., D major pentatonic or D minor pentatonic or G major pentatonic or G minor pentatonic... easier to think of as superposition of D dorian3 and G dorian3.

  14. #63

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    This could be your first stop: Free Jazz Guitar Lessons
    Religious music is not unknown in jazz, gospel tunes always found a way into some spirited jazz musician's repertoire. This is a fine example Feelin' the Spirit - Wikipedia

    To get out of the trap of pentatonics and scales in general I did follow that route:
    1. Learn to phrase in a "jazzy" way with whatever material you have in your box (the pentatonic scale) – Grant Green is a wonderful and accessible example as is Kenny Burrell – Listen!
    2. Learn songs – you can start with spirituals and jazz blues which should not overtrain your harmonic knowledge – how about Midnight Blue by Kenny Burrell as a start? There is even a transcription of the head and even of his solo available online (Google it) – very nice and very accessible. Try to understand the logic of the lines he plays with regard to the chords. Yes, the best way to learn is to figure it out yourself! Listen to the phrasing as much as to the actual notes he plays. Now you are already on the road for more sophisticated material – but take your time.
    3. Learn arpeggios (basically play the notes that are in the chord) – and learn to incorporate them into your playing as soon as you learned them.
    4. Learn "jazz scales" like these 7 Easy Jazz Guitar Scales For Beginners and also the "bebop scale" – and again learn to use the material musically as soon as you figured out the fingering.
    5. Add passing notes, chromatics etc. to glue it all together

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    dorian3 is a made up name for ease of reference; combining pentatonic major and pentatonic minor results in dorian with an added major third, so in an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., G major and minor pentatonic, the short form of indicating that is G dorian3. This makes things a little easier to conceive when the next step is an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., D major pentatonic or D minor pentatonic or G major pentatonic or G minor pentatonic... easier to think of as superposition of D dorian3 and G dorian3.
    And that was supposed to enlighten the OP who already doesn't know what he's doing? Words fail me.

  16. #65

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    No, that was supposed to enlighten you and the question you asked because of not reading the whole post.
    To enlighten the OP, I went step by step including an example.

  17. #66

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    Yeah I’m not sure there’s much point trying to teach someone until you know how they play

    i actually think there’s far too much of that on JGO, and I have to work hard not to end up doing it myself.

  18. #67

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    What's going on here? You've posted videos watched by countless people, of how they play you know nothing, but when someone who has played for 20 years, plays a regular church gig with other musicians, takes guitar lessons, and requests help on this jazz forum, you're "not sure there’s much point trying to teach someone until you know how they play"?

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    What's going on here? You've posted videos watched by countless people, of how they play you know nothing, but when someone who has played for 20 years, plays a regular church gig with other musicians, takes guitar lessons, and requests help on this jazz forum, you're "not sure there’s much point trying to teach someone until you know how they play"?
    All true. I'm developing my ideas a bit. Self reflection is a good thing no?

    I think it's kind of a non helpful thing to do and I'd like to do it less.

    I just feel it clogs everything up, and although I FEEL my info is helpful, I look at the average thread and think OMG.

    I might post a YT vid if I feel it's relevant to the thread, but yeah. Not sure if its the best thing. You can make information available; but that's not really teaching. The internet is FULL of information. More information is not the answer. Actually what students really need is someone to help them decide what to concentrate on.

    When people post a little playing I feel the advice gets more specific and helpful; tends to be more coherent and is MUCH less likely to go down the usual rabbit holes we go down.

    Of course I reserve the right to totally fail at this haha. But I think it's a good policy for JGO regulars to observe to ask players to post playing. What do you think?

    That said, not sure about this fella. I think he REALLY needs a good teacher.

  20. #69

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    I see, and I have noticed increasing requests for samples of playing. I must admit, I can determine more from a few seconds of playing than from anything and everything else combined. Maybe dreamingJazz will follow through with something to hear.

  21. #70

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    Hi guys OP here;

    20 August 2020

    I thought maybe I should follow up on this and show you guys progress.

    I asked you guys about tips and tricks and how to learn jazz. So here it is.

    Down Here On The Ground - Grant Green,

    My first Jazz tune!! Forgive the sloppy playing! I’m trying to learn Jazz the easiest way possible. For now, i can only copy by ear. I cannot solo yet or follow rhythm or do jazz chords. But Grant Green got me into really diving into this as I enjoy his music.

    Also, I’m learning this song by the minute. Slowly but surely. Learn 1 full minute, and master that and learn another minute and master that, so on and so forth.

    I got the chorus down (I dont know why my phone stopped recording) before it goes into a full blown jazz bluesy solo, that part I need to slow down and focus on.



    so i can only show you up to this part for now.


    any tips? Advice? I really want to learn Jazz!!!


  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It seems dreamingjazz's favorite venue is the gear section, which probably says it all :-) He posts there regularly.

    As if having the 'right' guitar with the 'right' strings and the 'right' amp is going to make someone a good player... dream on
    sorry @ragman1 if my posts for the gear section makes me a person that thinks getting the right string, right guitar, amp, pedals, etc, is going to make me a good player. I also do have a life you know. I work 8-5pm, i have a 2 year old bub, and I can only practice 15min-1hr (if im lucky) in a day.

    My last post has a sample of heeding advices here to listen and play the tune I really like. I managed to learn 1:30mins of that song in about 2 hours, trying to get that feel, that emotion, that expression Grant Green is trying to convey. Unfortunately I am a noob and I am 35 years old and I feel i am too late or too old to play jazz.

    so yeah, i’ll say to myself dream on, mate, dream on. I feel like an idiot. Oh well.
    Last edited by dreamingJazz; 08-20-2020 at 08:29 AM.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    All true. I'm developing my ideas a bit. Self reflection is a good thing no?

    I think it's kind of a non helpful thing to do and I'd like to do it less.

    I just feel it clogs everything up, and although I FEEL my info is helpful, I look at the average thread and think OMG.

    I might post a YT vid if I feel it's relevant to the thread, but yeah. Not sure if its the best thing. You can make information available; but that's not really teaching. The internet is FULL of information. More information is not the answer. Actually what students really need is someone to help them decide what to concentrate on.

    When people post a little playing I feel the advice gets more specific and helpful; tends to be more coherent and is MUCH less likely to go down the usual rabbit holes we go down.

    Of course I reserve the right to totally fail at this haha. But I think it's a good policy for JGO regulars to observe to ask players to post playing. What do you think?

    That said, not sure about this fella. I think he REALLY needs a good teacher.
    thank you,

    your posts are helpful. And i didnt try to go back here and post more questions and stuff without me trying my hand at “playing” jazz and learning at least one song or a part of a song to be able to post and let you guys know I’m trying.

    sorry if I came in and just barged in and asked help as a newbie in a forum.

    i feel like a kid whos only ever ridden a bike with side wheels, asking a group of adults on how to ride a bike without the side wheels. Of course i know im gonna get bruised up, wounded and fall down. Its all just part of the process, and I know that. I feel like an idiot.

    all I was just trying to get is a more structured approach that I can do myself, being a noob, without any theory, and try to learn it. Im not looking to be a hack in jazz or blues, i want to improve and I want to be better even if I dont get there, at least I started.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    This thread has spun out into every direction offering little direction to dreamingJazz...

    Let's look at G, D, Em, C and see what could be done with it using pentatonic scales and their combinations.

    Things to know about...

    Notice the pairs of major and minor pents that are the same notes:

    G major pentatonic (same as E minor pentatonic)
    D major pentatonic (same as B minor pentatonic)
    C major pentatonic (same as A minor pentatonic)

    Notice that if you combine the notes of major and minor pentatonic you get dorian with added major 3rd

    For example, G major pentatonic plus G minor pentatonic is G dorian plus major 3rd
    G A B D E G plus G A# C D F G equals G A A# B C D E F G where B is the major third
    For reference, let's call this combined scale form "dorian3"

    In rock and blues, there are basically three approaches - minor, major, and dominant.

    Minor approach rock/blues of G D Em C - Few possibilities, this is typical of minor mood approaches
    G - play G minor pentatonic
    D - play G minor pentatonic or play D minor pentatonic
    Em - play E minor pentatonic
    C - play C major pentatonic

    Major approach rock/blues of G D Em C - May play G major pent all the way through or change through the others
    G - play G major pentatonic
    D - play G major pentatonic or play D major pentatonic
    Em - play G major pentatonic or play E minor pentatonic
    C - play G major pentatonic or play C major pentatonic

    Dominant approach rock/blues of G D Em C - Lots more possibilities
    G - play G dorian3 (G major or minor pentatonic, or mix freely from both)
    D - play G dorian3 or D dorian3, or both*
    Em - play E dorian3
    C - play C dorian3

    *notice that combining G dorian3 and D dorian3 is
    G maj pent plus G min pent plus D maj pent plus D min pent
    So this may be thought as mixing freely from either G or D major or minor pentatonic
    or G A A# B C D E F F#

    That should be enough to work on for a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Pents are easy to hear, easy to see, and easy to play... but hard to manipulate, coordinate, etc. with respect to harmonic execution (if one is trying to go in the jazz direction). As I wrote, dorian3 is a made up name for ease of reference; combining pentatonic major and pentatonic minor results in dorian with an added major third, so in an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., G major and minor pentatonic, the short form of indicating that is G dorian3. This makes things a little easier to conceive when the next step is an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., D major pentatonic or D minor pentatonic or G major pentatonic or G minor pentatonic... easier to think of as superposition of D dorian3 and G dorian3.
    thank you so much!!

    i can understand what you are saying. I can try and move forward with this in mind. Maybe it will give m a bit of direction in my learnings and journey

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by guavajelly
    This could be your first stop: Free Jazz Guitar Lessons
    Religious music is not unknown in jazz, gospel tunes always found a way into some spirited jazz musician's repertoire. This is a fine example Feelin' the Spirit - Wikipedia

    To get out of the trap of pentatonics and scales in general I did follow that route:
    1. Learn to phrase in a "jazzy" way with whatever material you have in your box (the pentatonic scale) – Grant Green is a wonderful and accessible example as is Kenny Burrell – Listen!
    2. Learn songs – you can start with spirituals and jazz blues which should not overtrain your harmonic knowledge – how about Midnight Blue by Kenny Burrell as a start? There is even a transcription of the head and even of his solo available online (Google it) – very nice and very accessible. Try to understand the logic of the lines he plays with regard to the chords. Yes, the best way to learn is to figure it out yourself! Listen to the phrasing as much as to the actual notes he plays. Now you are already on the road for more sophisticated material – but take your time.
    3. Learn arpeggios (basically play the notes that are in the chord) – and learn to incorporate them into your playing as soon as you learned them.
    4. Learn "jazz scales" like these 7 Easy Jazz Guitar Scales For Beginners and also the "bebop scale" – and again learn to use the material musically as soon as you figured out the fingering.
    5. Add passing notes, chromatics etc. to glue it all together
    thank you so much for this.

  26. #75

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    dreamingjazz -

    I've no idea what to say to you. I may have been blunt but I certainly wasn't trying to bully or belittle you.

    After all, any activity approached with serious intent requires time spent, dedication, commitment, application, and so on. But, if one's time is short, the old adage of quality above quantity certainly applies. It would still apply even if one does have the time.

    All right, you have a full-time job and a small child, obviously time-consuming and unquestionably coming first above playing the guitar!

    So if you have, say, only 15 minutes a day, what will you do with it? An hour would be better because that gives you time to settle, get into it, and all that.

    Incidentally, 35 is nothing, you have energy at 35. But, of course, if you were 75 you'd have more time :-)

    See, it depends on how much you know already. Apparently you don't read music, you know some pentatonics, some chords, that kind of thing... and you want to sound like Grant Green. That tune seems not a bad place to start. It's more about syncopation than clever lines, etc.

    You must have heard the Wes Montgomery version, have you? To my ear there's real feeling there, it swings... I prefer it :-)



    So what will you do? When I was learning, many moons ago, I did what I wanted. I strummed songs I liked. I only took up note playing because people kept telling me to play a solo. I sort of got there eventually.

    You need to know jazz chords, that's first. Then you need to know the tune, that's second. Then you need to learn a tune you like, that interests you.

    After that, it takes study, research, looking at various versions, ways of playing, finding out. It will come sooner or later, but you have to understand it takes time, lots of time. BUT you don't think in terms of time. That is impatience and doesn't work. You just do what you're doing because that's where you are.

    I can only say keep going. Do what you want, apply yourself logically, and I'm sure it'll work out.

  27. #76

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    My advice would be general here.


    • Just keep going and don't worry about life's demands, find the time that you can,
    • That said, try for 45 minutes per day, more on weekends - you can make real progress with that over time!
    • Use a pick,
    • Learn to read - a tool who's value will become more and more apparent as you progress,
    • Play strapped - neck up a little bit more than you are doing now with the horizontal position of the guitar,
    • Continue learning by ear but get a few great books as well (do BOTH)


    .

  28. #77

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    Just keep copying Grant Green solos, it’s as good a method as any.

    It’s also probably how Grant Green learned (i.e. I expect he copied solos by someone he liked).

    It’s certainly how I learned, I copied solos and phrases by Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Charlie Parker and Dexter Gordon, predominantly.

  29. #78

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    hey Dreamingjazz...

    Yea... if you want to play jazz, it takes a lot. There is a big difference between being able to actually play Jazz or in a jazz style and .... memorizing some jazz tunes or working out, rehearsing some music.

    GTR's general advice is good...

    You need to make some life decisions... figure out who and what you are, how you work etc... there are plenty of guides as to how to understand yourself, maybe you already do. Anyway that's where you start.
    Your on the family road... that pretty much needs to be #1 right.

    Now your ready to try and put together a plan as to how get the jazz thing together, decide where you want to go or get.

    Just for the record, you look and sound like getting into Something like Micky Baker books would work for you along with organized schedule of practice to get your technical skills together. You have a ways to go...

    You need a written down schedule of material to go through and how much time to spend on the details. That will change as you move along.

    If you want to put together the material... you'll need help.

  30. #79

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    Don't be discouraged, anything worthwhile takes time and effort, and progress is incremental. Always remember- Family first, music when possible. Good luck!

  31. #80

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    First, congratulations on posting your playing. That can be a scary thing. Don't be ashamed of your playing. Everyone is at a different level and had different goals.
    Second, if you don't want to use a pick that is fine. I thought that was a strange comment. Wes Montgomery?
    Third, analyse the solo you learned. This might be very slow and time consuming. At first. Figure out how EACH note relates to the chord. IE is it the root of the cord, the third or the fifth. Or some other note. In a C major chord, C is the root, E is the third (three notes up) and G is the 5th (5 notes up from c).
    Take it bar by bar. You will note recognize the sound/feel/tone colour of a root, third or fifth played above a chord and can use that to make your own solo later.
    Fourth, buy a method book. Mickey Baker's is inexpensive (ten bucks). It's a good start. What he has you doing doesn't make sense at first. But do it anyway.
    Fifth, practise consistently. Do it everyday. Even if it's 15 minutes. You are developing muscle memory.

    Remember it's supposed to be fun. End each practise with a song you know and love. End on a high note.



    Here is the first little bit of the song you posted. I think it's an F major chord.
    First note it's an A. This is the 3rd of the chord.
    Second note is D. This is the 6th of the chord.
    Third note you play is a G. That is the 2nd of Fmaj.
    Fourth note is F# this is a "strange" note. The chord is now Bb minor. F is the 5th. So F# is the 5th but raised. That's why it's sounds a little weird, a little jazzy.
    Carry on.
    Last edited by Littlemark; 08-21-2020 at 01:30 PM.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    Second, if you don't want to use a pick that is fine. I thought that was a strange comment. Wes Montgomery?
    It's called plectrum guitar for a reason. It's the majority technique by far, Wes was a very rare exception. I would say don't make it any harder on yourself than you have to. Fingerstyle for steel strings is a challenge, especially when it comes to playing rapid, complex lines, which of course jazz specilaizes in.

    Joe Pass used both in his later years but he was playing solo jazz guitar (i.e. no band) and we all know the story as to how that started... Plus he put his pick in his mouth so that when it was time to really go on the single line stuff he could articulate successfully.

    Ironicallly, when Grant Green was asked about Wes he said (paraphrasing) "yeah he really needs to quit playing with that thumb and get a pick".

  33. #82

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    This thread is about Jazz guitar not plectrum guitar.

    You don't think relearning how to play the instrument is harder?
    If the OP didn't already play guitar for 15 years or whatever, sure.
    Jazz is about the what notes you choose moreso than how they are sounded sound. How dare Parker play Jazz on a plastic sax. Don't even think about Jazz on a solid body guitar or flat top.

    Focus on the notes.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark

    Remember it's supposed to be fun.
    Oh, yeah, I forgot :-)

  35. #84

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    Plectrum guitar?

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    Plectrum guitar?

  37. #86

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    It just means "pick style" guitar, guys. That was the point - pick.

    And yes, it's very old fashioned terminology. And yes, thumb and/or fingers ARE a choice as one's primary technique.

    Just choose carefully, hehe.

  38. #87

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    But is refers to the technique, not the guitar. Fingerstyle guitar refers not to a certain type of guitar, but to the technique.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamingJazz
    Hi guys OP here;

    20 August 2020

    I thought maybe I should follow up on this and show you guys progress.

    I asked you guys about tips and tricks and how to learn jazz. So here it is.

    Down Here On The Ground - Grant Green,

    My first Jazz tune!! Forgive the sloppy playing! I’m trying to learn Jazz the easiest way possible. For now, i can only copy by ear. I cannot solo yet or follow rhythm or do jazz chords. But Grant Green got me into really diving into this as I enjoy his music.


    GOOD. Don't listen to anything to the contrary on this massively industrialised bullshit farm we call the internet. Listen to and learn the music you love and learn it by ear. No better way.

    Thanks for posting your playing. You'll be fine.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-21-2020 at 07:06 PM.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    But is refers to the technique, not the guitar. Fingerstyle guitar refers not to a certain type of guitar, but to the technique.
    I'm well aware, just as I am aware that nylon strings spaced widely apart suits fingerstyle ideally, while steel string guutars with a narrow nut width suit pick playing. One can pick a classical and one can pluck a steel string, but both are sub-optimal. Some well known players have managed to adapt quite well, obviously. Just so long as we recognize that's what they're doing - adapting.

    If one wants to do that it's certainly fine by me, but I would advise any player who is looking for advice on how to get started, to go with conventional technique first.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    I'm well aware, just as I am aware that nylon strings spaced widely apart suits fingerstyle ideally, while steel string guutars with a narrow nut width suit pick playing. One can pick a classical and one can pluck a steel string, but both are sub-optimal. Some well known players have managed to adapt quite well, obviously. Just so long as we recognize that's what they're doing - adapting.

    If one wants to do that it's certainly fine by me, but I would advise any player who is looking for advice on how to get started, to go with conventional technique first.
    The op is not getting started.
    I think you are dismissing the huge number of Blues guitar players who use their fingers.
    Nevermind the ones who hybrid pick or use a thumb pick. Or even Brian May who uses coins.
    My main point is, you don't need to use a pick to play Jazz guitar.

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    dreamingjazz -

    I've no idea what to say to you. I may have been blunt but I certainly wasn't trying to bully or belittle you.

    After all, any activity approached with serious intent requires time spent, dedication, commitment, application, and so on. But, if one's time is short, the old adage of quality above quantity certainly applies. It would still apply even if one does have the time.

    All right, you have a full-time job and a small child, obviously time-consuming and unquestionably coming first above playing the guitar!

    So if you have, say, only 15 minutes a day, what will you do with it? An hour would be better because that gives you time to settle, get into it, and all that.

    Incidentally, 35 is nothing, you have energy at 35. But, of course, if you were 75 you'd have more time :-)

    See, it depends on how much you know already. Apparently you don't read music, you know some pentatonics, some chords, that kind of thing... and you want to sound like Grant Green. That tune seems not a bad place to start. It's more about syncopation than clever lines, etc.

    You must have heard the Wes Montgomery version, have you? To my ear there's real feeling there, it swings... I prefer it :-)



    So what will you do? When I was learning, many moons ago, I did what I wanted. I strummed songs I liked. I only took up note playing because people kept telling me to play a solo. I sort of got there eventually.

    You need to know jazz chords, that's first. Then you need to know the tune, that's second. Then you need to learn a tune you like, that interests you.

    After that, it takes study, research, looking at various versions, ways of playing, finding out. It will come sooner or later, but you have to understand it takes time, lots of time. BUT you don't think in terms of time. That is impatience and doesn't work. You just do what you're doing because that's where you are.

    I can only say keep going. Do what you want, apply yourself logically, and I'm sure it'll work out.
    thanks for the advice,

    yes I did hear Wes Montgomery’s version, and it was also beautiful, however, i heard Grant Green’s first and it was more on kind of sounding a bit bluesy which is I am familiar of, and would be easier for me to learn as it is a familiar sound rather than full blown jazz song.

    another thing Why I want to at least learn a bit of principles and standards is to be able to make sense of what I’m copying. I know it would be very hard to make sense of something in jazz compared to analyzing a rock song solo and I also know there are many ways to skin a cat, so what I “think” the guitarist might be thinking, turn out to be a very different thing, but at least Id be able to tell, okay he’s in the key of D, and it revolves around this scale/mode/shape or whatever and I’ll be able to apply that same thinking/sound to other things rather than just blatantly copying solos to fit a certain song

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    My advice would be general here.


    • Just keep going and don't worry about life's demands, find the time that you can,
    • That said, try for 45 minutes per day, more on weekends - you can make real progress with that over time!
    • Use a pick,
    • Learn to read - a tool who's value will become more and more apparent as you progress,
    • Play strapped - neck up a little bit more than you are doing now with the horizontal position of the guitar,
    • Continue learning by ear but get a few great books as well (do BOTH)


    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    First, congratulations on posting your playing. That can be a scary thing. Don't be ashamed of your playing. Everyone is at a different level and had different goals.
    Second, if you don't want to use a pick that is fine. I thought that was a strange comment. Wes Montgomery?
    Third, analyse the solo you learned. This might be very slow and time consuming. At first. Figure out how EACH note relates to the chord. IE is it the root of the cord, the third or the fifth. Or some other note. In a C major chord, C is the root, E is the third (three notes up) and G is the 5th (5 notes up from c).
    Take it bar by bar. You will note recognize the sound/feel/tone colour of a root, third or fifth played above a chord and can use that to make your own solo later.
    Fourth, buy a method book. Mickey Baker's is inexpensive (ten bucks). It's a good start. What he has you doing doesn't make sense at first. But do it anyway.
    Fifth, practise consistently. Do it everyday. Even if it's 15 minutes. You are developing muscle memory.

    Remember it's supposed to be fun. End each practise with a song you know and love. End on a high note.



    Here is the first little bit of the song you posted. I think it's an F major chord.
    First note it's an A. This is the 3rd of the chord.
    Second note is D. This is the 6th of the chord.
    Third note you play is a G. That is the 2nd of Fmaj.
    Fourth note is F# this is a "strange" note. The chord is now Bb minor. F is the 5th. So F# is the 5th but raised. That's why it's sounds a little weird, a little jazzy.
    Carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    It's called plectrum guitar for a reason. It's the majority technique by far, Wes was a very rare exception. I would say don't make it any harder on yourself than you have to. Fingerstyle for steel strings is a challenge, especially when it comes to playing rapid, complex lines, which of course jazz specilaizes in.

    Joe Pass used both in his later years but he was playing solo jazz guitar (i.e. no band) and we all know the story as to how that started... Plus he put his pick in his mouth so that when it was time to really go on the single line stuff he could articulate successfully.

    Ironicallly, when Grant Green was asked about Wes he said (paraphrasing) "yeah he really needs to quit playing with that thumb and get a pick".
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    This thread is about Jazz guitar not plectrum guitar.

    You don't think relearning how to play the instrument is harder?
    If the OP didn't already play guitar for 15 years or whatever, sure.
    Jazz is about the what notes you choose moreso than how they are sounded sound. How dare Parker play Jazz on a plastic sax. Don't even think about Jazz on a solid body guitar or flat top.

    Focus on the notes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    Plectrum guitar?
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    It just means "pick style" guitar, guys. That was the point - pick.

    And yes, it's very old fashioned terminology. And yes, thumb and/or fingers ARE a choice as one's primary technique.

    Just choose carefully, hehe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    But is refers to the technique, not the guitar. Fingerstyle guitar refers not to a certain type of guitar, but to the technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    The op is not getting started.
    I think you are dismissing the huge number of Blues guitar players who use their fingers.
    Nevermind the ones who hybrid pick or use a thumb pick. Or even Brian May who uses coins.
    My main point is, you don't need to use a pick to play Jazz guitar.
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    I'm well aware, just as I am aware that nylon strings spaced widely apart suits fingerstyle ideally, while steel string guutars with a narrow nut width suit pick playing. One can pick a classical and one can pluck a steel string, but both are sub-optimal. Some well known players have managed to adapt quite well, obviously. Just so long as we recognize that's what they're doing - adapting.

    If one wants to do that it's certainly fine by me, but I would advise any player who is looking for advice on how to get started, to go with conventional technique first.
    hi guys, OP here, i do use a pick, plectrum, triangular plastic shape card, coin, whatever you want to call it.

    Here is me, in how I play in church (if its against the rules to post something religious, feel free to delete, but this is mostly showing how I play, How I sound, how I am in my element.

    Im the one with the sunburst and daphne blue tele. I am very present in the mix, you can clearly hear me cut through, thanks to the telecaster. But seriously, i think its got to do with the engineer or my amp having a very middy tone (Peavey Classic 30)








    heres one when I was trying to do my own version of Little Wing. Not the best though.



    however, for the video I posted above on Grant Green’s song, I am in fact was torn in between using a pick and playing with my thumb/fingers.. ultimately the smoother tone, warmer feel, won and thus I played with my thumb/fingers instead.

    i am not used to EQ’ing jazz tones as you may have noticed. Instead I am trying to connect to my guitar, to the feelings involved in playing jazz and trying to be a bit more involved in feeling and playing.

    when I finally learn the whole song, I will post a vid of me playing standing up, playing with a pick. I dont know when that’ll be though. The next parts after that first chorus is a bit of a task. Im only used to copying solos 3-4 bars and very rarely exceed a minute or two, okay, yeah well, some blues players exceed that, but I really never tried learning 6-7 minutes of guitar soloing, let alone, learning a jazzy song. So please bear with me.
    Last edited by dreamingJazz; 08-22-2020 at 09:59 PM.

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    hey Dreamingjazz...

    Yea... if you want to play jazz, it takes a lot. There is a big difference between being able to actually play Jazz or in a jazz style and .... memorizing some jazz tunes or working out, rehearsing some music.

    GTR's general advice is good...

    You need to make some life decisions... figure out who and what you are, how you work etc... there are plenty of guides as to how to understand yourself, maybe you already do. Anyway that's where you start.
    Your on the family road... that pretty much needs to be #1 right.

    Now your ready to try and put together a plan as to how get the jazz thing together, decide where you want to go or get.

    Just for the record, you look and sound like getting into Something like Micky Baker books would work for you along with organized schedule of practice to get your technical skills together. You have a ways to go...

    You need a written down schedule of material to go through and how much time to spend on the details. That will change as you move along.

    If you want to put together the material... you'll need help.
    thank you, this is exactly why I posted here, to ask for help in getting the right materials. I realize that there are probably hundreds of books/materials, but being a beginner in jazz and even music theory, I am soliciting advice on which road to take, maybe a mix of a lot of things from different people, from people who knows more than me, and more experienced, so i can learn. And be better

  45. #94

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    First, congratulations on posting your playing. That can be a scary thing. Don't be ashamed of your playing. Everyone is at a different level and had different goals.
    Second, if you don't want to use a pick that is fine. I thought that was a strange comment. Wes Montgomery?
    Third, analyse the solo you learned. This might be very slow and time consuming. At first. Figure out how EACH note relates to the chord. IE is it the root of the cord, the third or the fifth. Or some other note. In a C major chord, C is the root, E is the third (three notes up) and G is the 5th (5 notes up from c).
    Take it bar by bar. You will note recognize the sound/feel/tone colour of a root, third or fifth played above a chord and can use that to make your own solo later.
    Fourth, buy a method book. Mickey Baker's is inexpensive (ten bucks). It's a good start. What he has you doing doesn't make sense at first. But do it anyway.
    Fifth, practise consistently. Do it everyday. Even if it's 15 minutes. You are developing muscle memory.

    Remember it's supposed to be fun. End each practise with a song you know and love. End on a high note.



    Here is the first little bit of the song you posted. I think it's an F major chord.
    First note it's an A. This is the 3rd of the chord.
    Second note is D. This is the 6th of the chord.
    Third note you play is a G. That is the 2nd of Fmaj.
    Fourth note is F# this is a "strange" note. The chord is now Bb minor. F is the 5th. So F# is the 5th but raised. That's why it's sounds a little weird, a little jazzy.
    Carry on.
    thank you!

    also another exact thing why I post. To learn what Im copying and not just copying. I want to analyze what is happening, what are notes, why, what makes it tick, what makes it sound like this, or that.

    like i said above there are many ways to skin a cat, but what Im trying to do is to maybe just learn one effective way, and be able to apply that to other things. What scale/shape/mode was it, and how I can tweak that to my flavor, but still be theoretically correct and knowledgeable to know WHEN and WHERE it can be applied.

    am i making any sense?