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  1. #1

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    This is less of a guitar and even jazz question and more of a general music question, but ...

    ... how can you better hear the flaws in your own playing. I've been playing the guitar for a long time, as many here have I'm sure and from time to time, I'll have people really check out my playing. And one of the comments I hear is that my time is bad. Both in and out of the realm of jazz.

    That's fine, and I've spent time working on it, but the problem is I can't really hear it. I can hear it in spots but overall, to my ears it sounds fine. I would never give somebody a recording of something I thought was horrendous.

    I'll hear some guy on another more rock oriented forum I'm on play a solo, and they're in the wrong key for a section, or make up a bass line for blues and the notes are just wrong. Those really basic flaws/stuff I think most everybody here can hear. But would it be worth me telling them, because how can they REALLY work on it unless they can really hear it's wrong themselves?

    It's funny, it's the first time it's occurred to me, but I think true musical talent, the innate kind, is being able to hear exactly what's wrong with your playing so you can work on it.

    But the more subtle stuff, the timing, the intonation, the phrasing. If somebody is just telling you how to do it, and you can't hear it yourself, how much mileage can you really get out that?

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  3. #2

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    Maybe try recording yourself playing to a backing track or metronome or something? I thought my time was ok until I started making recordings, when I listened back to them I was pretty depressed, for the first time I could objectively hear how lousy my time actually was. Just being able to hear it like that was a big step towards working on improving it.

  4. #3

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    Do you record yourself. Do it, when you're practicing, when you're playing with another person. Play with others, duo is good exercise. Work with a metronome set on 2 and 4. Work SLOW and with awareness of every space and nuance of your note placement. The slower you practice, the better your tempo work will be.
    It's natural not to hear yourself or your time when you're playing; your focus is on your fingers, not your ears. When you practice with a metronome, it holds you accountable. It's unforgiving. On 2 and 4 your feel has to swing and it's not there to correct you, just there as another player.
    Practice phrases and ideas that aren't habit or impulse motivated. Learn to think with good time. It's the hesitation that comes from the decision process that can hang you up, even just a moment. You're concentrating on playing something that's not fluid and of course you're not going to hear it. But record yourself. Listen to yourself. You'll hear the sound of indecision. It sounds like bad time.

  5. #4

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    Perhaps the most crucial question for someone wanting to really, profoundly improve.

    I also always have always struggled with evenness of time, one short segment of a chorus or verse will be very slightly either faster or slower than the rest of it. Yet the vast majority of my tune is spot on.

    Like you, I can't hear or feel it. I've learned that practicing with a metronome app on my phone helps. But it is still something I must be aware of.

    At the same time, I seem to be far more aware of some things like buzzing the next sting over than many guys and gals I've played with. So I work much at playing "clean".

    While some of the ones I played with are very tight on time but to my ear have too much extraneous sound they generate. We drove each other nuts.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  6. #5

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    I find that I sometimes play something and it feels fine. Then, if I listen to a recording of it, I can hear problems with the time. That's a challenge. If I can't hear it while I'm playing how can I improve?

    For a while I recorded everything I played in a group setting. The recordings with really good players were most important -- because on those recordings, if there was a problem, it probably wasn't them. I think that sharpened my ability to hear timing problems, but only to a degree. It's as if I just hear things on a different schedule. That is, just a bit late.

    So, I'd suggest playing with the best players you can find and recording everything. This may be the only useful line in this post. I think it's the only thing that has helped me with this problem at all.

    A teacher who is willing to be blunt can be painful, but it's a gift when somebody tells you an uncomfortable truth. In music, it's generally true that you get better if you can handle the blows to your self esteem.

    Recently, I've been recording tracks in Reaper and critiquing my time both by sound and by wave form. The ability to solo a track is very helpful. Whatever you play should have good time feel, even when you can't hear any other musician in the group. It helps to do take after take with the sole purpose of having your part, when solo'ed, feel good.

    This is more about awareness than mechanics. I know some people swear by the metronome. I know players some with great time and others with poor time who use the metronome a lot. I know one player with great time who teaches others to use the metronome, but privately admits that he never has. On balance, I think the evidence supports metronome use, but I prefer backing tracks. One great player recommends Time Guru, which will randomly drop out a selectable percentage of the clicks. Works for him. I can't say it worked for me, but maybe I didn't work with it enough.

    Oh, one other point. It's very easy to fall in love with an idea that you can't execute. Rule: NEVER sacrifice time to play something that's beyond your ability to play perfectly in time. So, if you're checking out your basic time feel, make sure you're playing stuff that you can physically execute with ease. If that stuff is in good time, then your problem is in execution not awareness.

  7. #6

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    Ya, recording oneself playing with a metronome, a backing track, etc. The tape don't lie, as the saying goes. Time is critical to playing well- the wrong note in time is often better than the right note out of time. Interestingly guitarists seem to not develop good time more often than many other instruments, maybe because we don't usually simultaneously learn to read like everyone else does- reading music forces an awareness of time. Listen to classical guitarists, they usually have excellent (if stiff) time but they learned to read from the beginning. Also, we tend to rely on the pendulum like motion of strumming to define time rather than counting. There is a very helpful book by drummer Peter Erskine (Time Awareness For All Musicians).

    And I'd like to reinforce what was mentioned above of having the metronome of 2 and 4 not 1 2 3 4; think of it as the high hat. This will push your sense of time. Few people are born with perfect time just as few are born with perfect pitch. The great Emily Remler locked herself away for months with a metronome on 2 and 4 to improve her time, and she ended up with rock solid swinging time. Eventually time is internalized and we feel it- Pat Metheny has talked about feeling the swing time groove in his chest whenever he plays- it's just there and he always knows where the beat is.

    Notice when he plays Moose the Mooch over the metronome on 2 & 4, how it sounds like the metronome is swinging instead of being rigid- but it is really being rigid. When good musicians play, the time is exact even when it sounds rubbery.


  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Maybe try recording yourself playing to a backing track or metronome or something? I thought my time was ok until I started making recordings, when I listened back to them I was pretty depressed, for the first time I could objectively hear how lousy my time actually was. Just being able to hear it like that was a big step towards working on improving it.
    Yes, I record. That's how people were able to tell me my time stinks.

    Yea, thinking something sounds good in real time and then bad after listening to the recording, that's a completely different thing.

  9. #8

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    Recording yourself is a great way to hear weaknesses. Generally, we first improve as listeners, and then as players. Some things that i feel have helped me a lot are:

    Listen to A LOT of music, in the thousands of cds.
    Always practice with a time reference. Metronome for square time, cds for different variations of feel and groove.
    A lot of transcriptions, but play them until you can really play them together with the cd, because that's when details like phrasing, time feel etc, come together.
    Take some lessons with a good drummer. Work on really difficult time stuff that drummers practice a lot, like poly-rhythms, playing right on, behind, and on top of the beat etc. Put in some serious work with rhythm solfege, like Agostini volume 4 stuff. Transcribe drummers for time stuff, singers for feel and expressiveness.
    Pay a lot of attention not only at what you play, but also on how it sounds.
    Get used to really listening when playing, meaning let melodies and not fingers guide what you play. Listen to the whole band while playing, focus on everyone else but yourself as an exercise.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I find that I sometimes play something and it feels fine. Then, if I listen to a recording of it, I can hear problems with the time. That's a challenge. If I can't hear it while I'm playing how can I improve?

    For a while I recorded everything I played in a group setting. The recordings with really good players were most important -- because on those recordings, if there was a problem, it probably wasn't them. I think that sharpened my ability to hear timing problems, but only to a degree. It's as if I just hear things on a different schedule. That is, just a bit late.

    So, I'd suggest playing with the best players you can find and recording everything. This may be the only useful line in this post. I think it's the only thing that has helped me with this problem at all.

    A teacher who is willing to be blunt can be painful, but it's a gift when somebody tells you an uncomfortable truth. In music, it's generally true that you get better if you can handle the blows to your self esteem.

    Recently, I've been recording tracks in Reaper and critiquing my time both by sound and by wave form. The ability to solo a track is very helpful. Whatever you play should have good time feel, even when you can't hear any other musician in the group. It helps to do take after take with the sole purpose of having your part, when solo'ed, feel good.

    This is more about awareness than mechanics. I know some people swear by the metronome. I know players some with great time and others with poor time who use the metronome a lot. I know one player with great time who teaches others to use the metronome, but privately admits that he never has. On balance, I think the evidence supports metronome use, but I prefer backing tracks. One great player recommends Time Guru, which will randomly drop out a selectable percentage of the clicks. Works for him. I can't say it worked for me, but maybe I didn't work with it enough.

    Oh, one other point. It's very easy to fall in love with an idea that you can't execute. Rule: NEVER sacrifice time to play something that's beyond your ability to play perfectly in time. So, if you're checking out your basic time feel, make sure you're playing stuff that you can physically execute with ease. If that stuff is in good time, then your problem is in execution not awareness.
    Thanks for advice man. Good in spirit, but in practice, I think ... difficult to find players to play jazz at ALL let alone people who are better than me and want to play with me, unless I pay them all.

    Should have stuck with Playstation and Xbox.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks
    Thanks for advice man. Good in spirit, but in practice, I think ... difficult to find players to play jazz at ALL let alone people who are better than me and want to play with me, unless I pay them all.

    Should have stuck with Playstation and Xbox.
    I've posted here before about hiring top pros to come in and coach and/or play with my groups.

    Even pro players will pay a highly regarded pro for that kind of lesson.

    As a guitarist, you can get started with just a bassist.

    If you can't find a decent bassist, it's going to be difficult to get on the right track to become a great combo jazz player.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I've posted here before about hiring top pros to come in and coach and/or play with my groups.

    Even pro players will pay a highly regarded pro for that kind of lesson.

    As a guitarist, you can get started with just a bassist.

    If you can't find a decent bassist, it's going to be difficult to get on the right track to become a great combo jazz player.
    Yea, we did that when I had a combo a while back. Those guys live far, far away from me now.

    It really has been difficult to find anybody to play with, jazz is not that popular, to listen to, let alone be serious enough to try and play it. I don't live the boonies either.

    It does seem like you don't 'really' improve at jazz, stuff like learning to hear your flaws, unless you spend a lot of time playing with better people. I don't know how practical that is as a middle aged person. As a teen or even somebody in my 20s, it'd be more straightforward.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    What a great lesson. Thank you for this post.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks
    Yea, we did that when I had a combo a while back. Those guys live far, far away from me now.

    It really has been difficult to find anybody to play with, jazz is not that popular, to listen to, let alone be serious enough to try and play it. I don't live the boonies either.

    It does seem like you don't 'really' improve at jazz, stuff like learning to hear your flaws, unless you spend a lot of time playing with better people. I don't know how practical that is as a middle aged person. As a teen or even somebody in my 20s, it'd be more straightforward.
    I started studying at the Jazzschool in Berkeley, California when I was in my 50s. Combo classes. The class is a band. The teacher puts music on your stand, counts it off and a moment later corrects the first error. That goes on for 10 weeks. Did it for years. Great experience.

    If the goal is to be a better combo musician, how can you do that without playing in combos with players who support and inspire improvement?

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I started studying at the Jazzschool in Berkeley, California when I was in my 50s. Combo classes. The class is a band. The teacher puts music on your stand, counts it off and a moment later corrects the first error. That goes on for 10 weeks. Did it for years. Great experience.

    If the goal is to be a better combo musician, how can you do that without playing in combos with players who support and inspire improvement?
    Thanks again for the response.

    How long had you been playing guitar, or at least playing jazz, when you started that group combo?

    I was living in NYC for a while, so I've been in combos/classes like that. One I was in was mostly kids (and was when I myself was relatively young, now 40s). There's a similar thing for adults that meets around here, but they're filled. In NYC, probably easier to find people at your level to jam with but not easy.

    It's a little bit of a unique endeavor, getting 'decent' at real jazz, if you know what I mean. It's a world only a small amount of people are involved in, yet the bar is quite high. It's tricky...

    I agree with you though, probably essential to play with good players for many, many hours to even approach decent.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    But record yourself. Listen to yourself. You'll hear the sound of indecision. It sounds like bad time.
    This is so true. If one is suffering from bad meter, there are usually two reasons: 1) not having a solid sense of meter, which is cured by practicing with a metronome or backing tracks with solid time; and 2) not knowing where you want to go with your next bit of melody. The latter is harder to fix, but it helps to know your scales and modes, and you need to internalize the changes so that you always know where you are in the song. The hardest part of fixing this is learning how to imagine your next notes while you're playing the current notes. Sometimes mental practice without a guitar at hand is useful to address this. Get a groove going in your head, and now start imagining the lines you'd play over it. Analyze what you're hearing in your head and start figuring out what scales, modes, or arpeggios you're using.

    As with any sort of practice, start slow, and add speed as your comfort level rises.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks
    Thanks again for the response.

    How long had you been playing guitar, or at least playing jazz, when you started that group combo?

    I was living in NYC for a while, so I've been in combos/classes like that. One I was in was mostly kids (and was when I myself was relatively young, now 40s). There's a similar thing for adults that meets around here, but they're filled. In NYC, probably easier to find people at your level to jam with but not easy.

    It's a little bit of a unique endeavor, getting 'decent' at real jazz, if you know what I mean. It's a world only a small amount of people are involved in, yet the bar is quite high. It's tricky...

    I agree with you though, probably essential to play with good players for many, many hours to even approach decent.
    When I started at the jazz school I'd been playing for more than 35 years. I could play some RealBook sort of jazz and had gigged with groups doing that.

    When the school started, within the first two years, they had 700 students come through. A lot of people want to play. To me, the key is the bassist. You can play with just a bassist. Horn players seem to be abundant. So, there's a trio.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    When I started at the jazz school I'd been playing for more than 35 years. I could play some RealBook sort of jazz and had gigged with groups doing that.

    When the school started, within the first two years, they had 700 students come through. A lot of people want to play. To me, the key is the bassist. You can play with just a bassist. Horn players seem to be abundant. So, there's a trio.
    Thanks bro. This is encouraging.

  19. #18

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    Listening to recordings of yourself is definitely helpful, but I find that it's more helpful if you wait a while first. I'm sure there are benefits to immediate listening too but, for me, I find I'm too emotionally connected to it if I listen to it right away. A month later I can be more objective.

  20. #19

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    I will Use a Loop pedal to record on it will hold 5 mins on a loop. I will use either a metronome or a backing track to record to. I then play the loop back by itself and see what's what. I also will play into a loop no backing track or metronome and when I play the loop back I will start the metronome and see how far out of the beat I get.

  21. #20

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    I've never done the following, but I've done some things that are similar.

    Load an Aebersold track into Reaper.

    Then, record yourself comping with it. Listen back and critique your groove.

    I think there may be some with guitar comping, in which case you can compare yourself to the recording, if there's a way to drop the recorded guitar out.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks
    This is less of a guitar and even jazz question and more of a general music question, but ...

    ... how can you better hear the flaws in your own playing. I've been playing the guitar for a long time, as many here have I'm sure and from time to time, I'll have people really check out my playing. And one of the comments I hear is that my time is bad. Both in and out of the realm of jazz.

    That's fine, and I've spent time working on it, but the problem is I can't really hear it. I can hear it in spots but overall, to my ears it sounds fine. I would never give somebody a recording of something I thought was horrendous.

    I'll hear some guy on another more rock oriented forum I'm on play a solo, and they're in the wrong key for a section, or make up a bass line for blues and the notes are just wrong. Those really basic flaws/stuff I think most everybody here can hear. But would it be worth me telling them, because how can they REALLY work on it unless they can really hear it's wrong themselves?

    It's funny, it's the first time it's occurred to me, but I think true musical talent, the innate kind, is being able to hear exactly what's wrong with your playing so you can work on it.

    But the more subtle stuff, the timing, the intonation, the phrasing. If somebody is just telling you how to do it, and you can't hear it yourself, how much mileage can you really get out that?
    I sympathise. this happened to me; it is GOOD THING. Because now you can work on it.

    So here is one way to understand how you are to play with. Record yourself playing a melody or a solo unaccompanied. Now try to comp for the recording ‘1 2 3 4’ through the tune.

    to improve your basic time, you can work with a metronome, but one excellent exercise is to speak the beat ‘1 2 3 4’ through everything you play.

    You will not be able to do this at all at first. It’s OK.

    slowly, your rhythmic perception will improve. It takes time. I’m crap at it naturally, but I work on it all the time, and I have got better. I still get roasted.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
    I will Use a Loop pedal to record on it will hold 5 mins on a loop. I will use either a metronome or a backing track to record to. I then play the loop back by itself and see what's what. I also will play into a loop no backing track or metronome and when I play the loop back I will start the metronome and see how far out of the beat I get.
    Loop pedals are great for this type of work. The less you play, the harder it is to stay in time.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I sympathise. this happened to me; it is GOOD THING. Because now you can work on it.

    So here is one way to understand how you are to play with. Record yourself playing a melody or a solo unaccompanied. Now try to comp for the recording ‘1 2 3 4’ through the tune.

    to improve your basic time, you can work with a metronome, but one excellent exercise is to speak the beat ‘1 2 3 4’ through everything you play.

    You will not be able to do this at all at first. It’s OK.

    slowly, your rhythmic perception will improve. It takes time. I’m crap at it naturally, but I work on it all the time, and I have got better. I still get roasted.
    Thanks Christian,

    I know you're an educator.

    One of the things that's curious to me is how you don't just naturally pick up the time from years and years of jamming to Jimi Hendrix, Oasis, Sheryl Crow, Guns and Roses, whatever. Spending hours jamming to blues backing tracks.

    Obviously, timing out rock solos with all of the chicken scratch tabs etc... is kind of impossible, you just have to feel it.

    Is that part of the problem? Are the subdivisions different in rock?

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks
    ... I've been playing the guitar for a long time, as many here have I'm sure and from time to time, I'll have people really check out my playing. And one of the comments I hear is that my time is bad. Both in and out of the realm of jazz.

    That's fine, and I've spent time working on it, but the problem is I can't really hear it. I can hear it in spots but overall, to my ears it sounds fine. ...
    I think “bad time” could mean a few different things, so I think you should find someone who can really diagnose your issues, demonstrate for you what you are doing wrong and what it would sound like to do it better, then suggest some exercises for overcoming the problems.

    It’s helped me to do exercises of grooves with various subdivisions, starting simple, moving to more complex. Latin and African music has a wealth of syncopated grooves to work on. Don’t try to play any complicated lines while starting out—all that’s important is being in the pocket, even if you just stay on one note.

    Maybe try to find an online class on latin rhythms. I took a couple of clinics from a latin percussionist and a Brazilian guitarist a few years ago and got a lot of ideas and inspiration and improved my rhythm a bit.
    Last edited by KirkP; 05-09-2020 at 10:29 PM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks

    One of the things that's curious to me is how you don't just naturally pick up the time from years and years of jamming to Jimi Hendrix, Oasis, Sheryl Crow, Guns and Roses, whatever. Spending hours jamming to blues backing tracks.

    Obviously, timing out rock solos with all of the chicken scratch tabs etc... is kind of impossible, you just have to feel it.

    Is that part of the problem? Are the subdivisions different in rock?
    fellow "bad timer" here. I think that saying the beats out loud was one of the biggest improvements i made. Ive been doing it about a year, and its really paying off. I knew my time "wasnt great" previously but i didnt realise how awful it truly was until i kept doing this exercise.

    if youre anything like me (and thousands of people who play alone) you dont realise you are just bluffing time & phrasing. saying it out loud gives you nowhere to hide.

    also you start to recognise patterns in music you are listening to, and this means you can multiply your practicing time by listening to music anywhere