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  1. #1

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    When I was in my 20s I was working as a teacher in the Mexican town of San Miguel de Allende. This was in the 90s. I was playing a lot of mandolin and getting into jazz and there was a terrific jazz guitarist who lived there named Ken Basman. I took a lesson from him - it was one of those lessons that was really amazing even though I don't think I gained anything of practical knowledge - I wasn't ready yet for what he was giving out, still may not be. He was a deep thinker about the guitar - he'd do things like set his metronome as slow as possible - like a beat ever 8 seconds - and try to play in time. The lesson made me see how expansive one's thoughts could be about the guitar, jazz and music.

    Anyway he was trying to explain to me the importance of the diminished chord - how he thought of the diminished chord as the root chord. That all chords can come from the diminished. As I said, I couldn't grasp it then, but the way the concept lit him up it seemed to be a "key to all mysteries" type of idea.

    As I continued learning more and more, now on guitar, I was reminded of this lesson he was trying to teach and I thought I'd reach out to him in hopes that maybe I would understand it a little more. But I was too late. I was saddened to find his obituary. He had died a few years back from a heart attack. It was just really depressing to know that he was gone, that his family would miss him, that he would no longer be adding music to the world. The whole idea of finding out why the diminished chord was so vital seemed trivial.

    So last night, I was watching a Truefire video of Henry Johnson talking about the diminished chord a parent chord (the lesson is mistitled "the Dom7 as the parent chord"). In it Johnson shows how if you lower any note of the diminished chord, what you get is a dominant 7th chord. So there's 4 7th chords that you can get out of one dim chord. Then he goes on to show that if you move the diminished chord up one fret and then another how you would have all 12 dominant 7th chords (4x3=12) and also when you move the diminished chord up a minor third you can then find all the inversions of the dominant 7th chords. Then he showed how you can get augmented chords from diminished chords as well.

    I thought that was pretty cool and thought this must have been part of what Ken was trying to explain to me over 20 yrs ago. And I was happy to have been given another opportunity to learn this thing that I wasn't prepared to learn back then.

    But is there more to this idea? Are there further implications to this idea of the diminished chord as a root chord? Are there practical applications to seeing the keyboard this way? Does this come in handy more when thinking about chords or can you also apply this knowledge to single note playing?

    Thanks a lot,
    Sam

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Uh-oh, here comes a 7 page thread.

    Before it starts...you know if you divide the CHROMATIC scale into thirds (that is play a note skip 2 notes) you get three diminished chords.

  4. #3

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    I think people have their theories about this stuff like it actually matters. And the people are like ‘ooh that’s deep’. I don’t think any of it that’s important. It’s all good honest fun.

    Pat Martino has a similar concept. And Barry Harris.

    in the end, it’s like numerology or something.

    the main thing to know here is how dim7 chords and Dom7s relate, understand what Barry calls the family of four.

    From Martino’s guitar perspective you can change a dim7 into four dom7 chords by moving each note in turn down a fret/semitone. This is quite useful for coming up with fingerings actually.

  5. #4

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    Pat talks about this here.
    "Parental forms".



  6. #5

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    I construct all my chord voicings using the I-Ching and a pair of dice.

    The Importance of Being Diminished-7781069c-8771-469d-8108-4f818f169df9-jpg

  7. #6
    "the main thing to know here is how dim7 chords and Dom7s relate, understand what Barry calls the family of four."

    Thanks Christian. Yes, I wasn't really thinking of this as some quasi-spiritual thing. So how do you apply this dim/dom 7 relationship in one's playing?

  8. #7
    Thanks Mark! I'll check that video out tonight

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam b
    "the main thing to know here is how dim7 chords and Dom7s relate, understand what Barry calls the family of four."

    Thanks Christian. Yes, I wasn't really thinking of this as some quasi-spiritual thing. So how do you apply this dim/dom 7 relationship in one's playing?
    well you can take any of the dominant scales and swap them out..

    So on a G7 to Cmja7

    G dominant scale --> Cmaj7
    Bb dom scale --> Cmaj7
    Db dom scale --> Cmaj7
    E dominant scale (the weirdest one) --> Cmaj7

    You can also relate the common dim7 chords to dominant scales, by just taking the root of the dominant and popping it up a semitone... e.g.

    G A B C D E F --> G7
    G# A B C D E F --> G#o7

    So in the key of C you can relate these common dims to dominant scales, these are the ones I use.

    F#o7 --> F7
    Ebo7 --> D7
    C#o7 --> C7

    SO, for instance F F#o7 C

    Becomes F7-->C and you can use the F# to make a dim7 that you can link into the C chord.

    and so on...

    And so. It's very elegant once you get your head around it.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam b
    Thanks Mark! I'll check that video out tonight
    There's a lot available by Pat and also about Pat's approach. I was, once upon a time, most interested in his "minor conversion" (or "convert to minor") approach, which is easier for guitarists than it may be for players of other instruments. (I don't know.)

    As much as I admire Pat's playing, I sometimes his find his explanations more confusing than helpful.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    well you can take any of the dominant scales and swap them out..
    Useful stuff, Christian. Thanks.

    I learned about this from Carol Kaye, who tends to call it "dims for doms." The easiest way for me to get this was to think of the dim chord as starting on the b9 of the dominant one. (Ab dim for G7.)

    She talks a good bit about "moving things up (or down) three frets" and it's more something she wants you to get in your ear than in your thinking. She'll say things like "Ab minor 9 IS G7!" When you get it, you get it, but until you get it there's a lot of, uh, wut?

  12. #11

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    Yes I find myself repeating the same things to confused looking students. I think they get it eventually...

  13. #12

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    My latest one - there's only two chords in the major key, and everything else is just filler...

  14. #13

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    The thing is - everyone has a version of this. They just put it differently. And the crazy thing is it's staring you in the face if you just look at the grips in a different way. What's this for instance?

    x x 3 3 3 5

    And what's this?

    x x 2 3 3 5

  15. #14

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    The diminished chord is very useful in developing smooth voice leading and adding substitutions for secondary dominants. For example, take a plain vanilla set of changes like this (4 beats each chord):

    Cmaj7 | Dmi7 | Emin7 | Dmin7 | Cmaj7

    you can add movement by using secondary dominants like (2 beats each chord):

    Cmaj7 A7 | Dmin7 B7 | Emin7 A7| Dmin7 G7| Cmaj

    the A7 is the secondary dominant for the Dmin7 the B7 for the Emin7 etc

    or you can add movement with diminished chord substitutions for the secondary dominants like:

    Cmaj7 C#dim7 | Dmin7 D#dim7 | Emin7 Edim7 | Dmin7 Ddim7 | Cmaj7

    the C#dim7 is acting like an A7b9 for the Dmin7 and the D#dim7 is acting like a B7b9 etc.

    It is very useful and efficient to use diminished chords in this way.

  16. #15

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    The diminished chord is a gateway chord that corrupts blues guitarists into jazz guitarists.

    As soon as it's discovered that returning from the four to the one sounds cool if inserting at the last second a diminished rooted on the flat five. This leads to experimenting with things like one (major seventh). flat two (diminished), two (minor seventh), flat third (diminished), three (minor seventh), flat three (diminished), flat two (nine flat five), one (major seventh)...

  17. #16

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    There's major, minor and dominant. Diminisheds are useful for connecting them. Beyond that they haven't much significance. They are not the eighth wonder of the world.

    Unless you want to make them so.

  18. #17

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    When looking at say a G7 to Cmaj7 resolution, it is common in jazz to use alterations (different scales) over the G7 chord as an outside sound. One example can be using the G altered scale, but another can be using the G half-whole diminished scale. This scale contains 4 dominant chords, G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7. So we can try voice leading these chords into Cmaj7, as a dominant to tonic movement, but always using the particular diminished scale as filler. Practicing pairs works great, G7-Cmaj7, B7-Cmaj7, etc. Using just triads for the chords is a great sound device too!

    For more out sounds, we can now do all that over a simple Cmaj7 chord vamp. Aka implying a dominant area where there was none. What starts as using a G7-Cmaj7 to create tension, can evolve to using all these chords.

    An interesting thing can be exploring the half whole diminished scale over a dominant tonic chord. It is a very bluesy sound, but a sophisticated one as well. In that scenario, say playing over a C7 vamp, the diminished scale gives us 4 dom7 chords to use, C7, Eb7, Gb7, A7. These chords are our bluesy tonic area now, and we can introduce a dominant area coming from the G7 now as above. So now we'd have 8 dom7 chords to juggle..

    Couple of examples I can come up with as to how it all sounds (at least when I take a shot at it ) are these two videos I have uploaded on the forum before, where both the melody and much of the solos are based on that.




  19. #18

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    i did a post on not the one part Dim7 but dominant subs,which come from Diminished chords and how they can be interchanged/sub/ etc


    imo there are numerous people who name or describe it slightly differently at the end of the day it is more or less the same message.


    additionally most, repeat do not know know and hear Diminished as Tonic/Root, this is because it is fairly difficult on Guitar to play a Diminished Major 7 chord which is. Tonic/Root and is the first chord in Stella. Because its harder to play ( physically) one would not play frequently or if at all. .then im am generalising here more usable and applied by pianists, many dont play this. Errol Garner played this on a version of Misty ( i cant recall now) but then dear Errol is one of the Giants of Jazz Piano my take and Keith Jarretts.


    Diminished is far more complicated in both understanding and hearing as opposed to Major, compounded by that a Diminished chord is Four different and identical chords. This brings ambiguity in. Not just equivalent as in a dom 7 b9 No root. i am talking about a Diminished chord here (now) meaning 1 b3 b5 bb7 eg C Eb Gb E Bbb ( A ) these everyone can play and shift around.


    Barry Harris use Diminished Tonic this is a different funtion, to say diminished connecting chords C C#dim Dmin or b3 Ebdim etc etc.


    Wes used a lot of diminished not really as Tonic, more frequently MinorMaj7


    a fully diminished chord C Eb Gb A and its Upper extensions D (9) F (11) Ab (b6) B (M7)
    so Tonic is Cdim7 the extensions are another diminished chord a tone above D in this case. the notes in D are the extensions of Cdim.


    the notes of C dim7 chord and D dim7 give you the entire Diminished scale.


    To confuse things more Barry Harris talks about a Major scale with an extra note making a 8 note scale thast note is between 5 & 6 eg a #5 or b13
    whatever. Within that scale or should i say every scale produces chords. ie chords come from scales or are within eg regular C major scale the chords Dmin7 & Emin7 are within there, i can see already this could go on all day.


    MY POINT HERE WAS to make one aware of difference of TONIC full Diminished M7 and your regular Dim7




    Dominant subs Family of Four




    Ps. Beato did some of this on YT sometime ago, not Barry Harris, but Diminished as Diminished Tonic

  20. #19

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    x x 8 6 5 5

    I don't think it's that hard?

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    x x 8 6 5 5

    I don't think it's that hard?
    Christian you right, it is just not very common. i was thinking.function purely.


    it is not really the movable sort of chord, it sounds good before the same Root Major Tonic. Must find the version Errol G played

  22. #21

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    A nice way to play the half whole diminished scale with chords is for Cdom7 x1222x x3234x and then ascend in minor thirds so you get from bottom string up:

    x1222x x3234x x4555x x6567x x7888x x98910x x101111x x12111213x

    and same voicings on the top strings

    xx2343 xx4355 xx5676 xx7688 xx89109 xx1091111 xx11121312 xx13121414

    Its a diminished chord scale that can be practiced like the drop-2 ones.

  23. #22

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    Another point: people automatically conflate the dim 7 chord with the ‘diminished scale’

    In fact dim7s are perfectly within the major/minor system. The most common choices in pre Coltrane jazz are diatonic. (The ones I’ve shown above, which happen to be related to harmonic minor.)

    but the dim7 was already out of fashion by this point, kind of a Dixieland and swing era sound.

    In fact using dim scales would be much more popular on dominant chords because there were just more of them.

    Dim7s with ‘funny notes’ in the treble have always been common - for instance Dbo7 in Bb with an A in the melody. Some people have Stella like that, but I hear Eo7 is the original. but check out Basin Street Blues, Djangos Castle, Hungaria, Tea for Two, Out of Nowhere, I Can’t Give You Anything but Love. These are diatonic melody notes against chromatic harmony.

    The only reason I ended up working on dim7 chords is because I played a lot of quaint old jazz....

  24. #23

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    If it’s of any interest here’s a video with a different approach to playing on dim7


  25. #24

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    That said; check out Bill Evans opening A section for a nice example of how to musically use a dim7 scale on the Eo7 in a rhythm changes. (The transcriber has rather unhelpfully written Ab7 here)



    in this situation dim scale is like a dim7 embellished with lower neighbour tones. This is probably how it was first used in jazz lines...

    im sure you can think of many more. Aside from Trane obviously :-)

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think people have their theories about this stuff like it actually matters. And the people are like ‘ooh that’s deep’. I don’t think any of it that’s important. It’s all good honest fun.

    Pat Martino has a similar concept. And Barry Harris.

    in the end, it’s like numerology or something.

    the main thing to know here is how dim7 chords and Dom7s relate, understand what Barry calls the family of four.

    From Martino’s guitar perspective you can change a dim7 into four dom7 chords by moving each note in turn down a fret/semitone. This is quite useful for coming up with fingerings actually.
    I think many things relate through ears amd may be approached from different perspectives... I remember I was a kid when I found that A7 shape works for C7 and for F#7 and Eb7... I did not get why... but it is the same thing basically... and by the way it was very guitaristic - through shapes too

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That said; check out Bill Evans opening A section for a nice example of how to musically use a dim7 scale on the Eo7 in a rhythm changes. (The transcriber has rather unhelpfully written Ab7 here)
    Why is the Ab7 unhelpful here?

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Why is the Ab7 unhelpful here?
    Edim=A7

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Why is the Ab7 unhelpful here?
    Because it's not the chord Bill Evans is outlining, and students might be confused if they don't know that that chord can also be Eo7 as there is no obvious harmonic relationship between the two.

    Chord symbols are something of a compromise though, to be fair. Do you represent the comping oicings (here not given), the harmony implied by the right hand or the original changes of the chord progression? These can all be different. Some pianists can even play one chord progression in the left, while improvising over a totally different one in the right!

    However, I think what the person who wrote out the transcription has done here is write out the chord symbols for a totally stock jazz school Rhythm Changes.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Because it's not the chord Bill Evans is outlining, and students might be confused if they don't know that that chord can also be Eo7 as there is no obvious harmonic relationship between the two.
    Ok, so say I'm one of those confused students, who, as the OP now wants to know things about the dim chord.
    How, over Eb > Ab7> Bb does Mr. Evens think Eo7?

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Ok, so say I'm one of those confused students, who, as the OP now wants to know things about the dim chord.
    How, over Eb > Ab7> Bb does Mr. Evens think Eo7?
    there is no vertical relationship.

    OK, shit they don’t teach vol 1

    this is a thing that goes back to New Orleans. Basically you have a move from I to IV and back,

    Bb | Eb | Bb

    right?

    So there are two classic tuba bass lines that get used:

    Bb Ab | G Gb | F

    Bb D | Eb E | F

    one normally implies
    Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm6 | Bb

    (Ebm6 is related to Ab7)

    the other

    Bb Bb7 | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F

    Ok? Both do the same job.

    now, in general one is favoured over the other in songs down to the melody. You don’t put the Eo7 when there’s Gb in the melody right? Or an Ebm6 when there’s a G. Some songs will take either; All of Me is a good example.

    OK. So you go back through the recorded history of jazz - Louis, Lester Young, Bird, Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins - and you’ll find again and again in solos, one gets played on the other. Or just an Eb7. Why? Because they both do the same job and they are going to resolve in two beats anyway. The vertical harmony here doesn’t matter.

    So, anyway, Rhythm Changes comes in both flavours and more besides. (And started me on the path towards playing into chords and not worrying about vertical stuff... next lesson, why Bmaj7 on G7 rocks.....)

    Does this make any sense?
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-22-2020 at 05:14 PM.

  32. #31

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    Guess the simple answer could be:

    Edim is Eb7 which is V of Ab.

  33. #32

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    Well it's not resolving to Ab, so it's neither here there.

    Look, rhythm changes is just this:

    Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 |
    Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 |

    So, anything else is just a passing chord. It's no different from the blues. Or any old Dixie tune you might come across.

    The skill the older players had was to weave dim chords in as passing chords and embellish these basic functions. This is a dead art except among specialists, because it's an old school thing, but it's no different from using sideslips or whatever. It's just decorating a basic thing.

    When I first got into playing swing gigs I would see things like this that seemed really unfamiliar:

    Bb Bo7 | Cm7 C#o7 | Dm7 Dbo7 | Cm7 F7 |
    Bb D7 | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F G7 | C7 F7 |

    Rhythm changes Count Basie style. You see changes like this on big band charts, right? If you look at this from a modern chord perspective - it's hard to relate to the standard rhythm changes. In terms of soloing - good luck making every change at high tempos!

    But it's all just movement. You can play your usual shit on it, and it will sound great.

    In practice most people (Lester, Charlie C etc) back then played lines around Bb tonality with lots of blues, and added their own movement in for colour.

    A turnaround is a turnaround, and they are all pretty much interchangeable.

    And then jazz education came along and confused the bejeezus out of everyone by trying to tidy up jazz. Hans Groiner is only half a joke....

    Bird developed this to a fine art with more complexity, but as Steve Coleman points out not all the implied harmony of his lines bear a strict vertical relationship to the written changes. Ethan Iverson has shown how this is true even between the pianists left and right hands lol.

  34. #33

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    Jonah, correct me if I'm wrong on this one, been too long since.....


    Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo | Bb/F G7 | Cm7 F7 ||

    The Bb/F was not considered a proper I chord but rather as a
    I/V suspension of the V chord.

    I heard and understood this viewpoint but still hear it as an inverted
    I chord.

    reduction:

    Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo | Bb/F | F7 ||

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, shit they don’t teach vol 1

    this is a thing that goes back to New Orleans.

    Does this make any sense?
    Yes. I'm printing your posts (and Alter's) to this thread (and some others too, no doubt) and sticking the sheets on my music stand.
    There are some things I get because I can hear them but don't know why they work. (
    There are other things that I see intellectually----okay, this is to that as the other thing is yet another thing; got it---but it isn't something that shows up in my playing because it's not second nature.

    What REALLY strikes me is your reference to MOVEMENT (as in the A section of a tune that's largely one chord or tonality). I like that. But it took a long time to suss out----to the slight extent I have---how to do that 'off the cuff'.

    It's also probably why I love a lot of the New Orleans and swing-era playing so much---it really wasn't about 'making the changes' so much as playing swinging lines with a bluesy feel. That's my briar patch.

    So, thanks for all this!

  36. #35

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    Ray Brown said his most common Rhythm Changes thinking was:

    | Bb G7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb G7 | Cm7 F7 |
    | Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F G7 | C-7 F7 |
    Last edited by rintincop; 04-23-2020 at 01:26 PM.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Ray Brown said his most common Rhythm Changes thinking was:

    | Bb G7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 |
    | Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F G7 | C-7 F7 |
    That’s fairly similar to my stock choice as well.

    Barry would have something to say about the the G7 in bar one (Parker never played it.) Should be Gm7.

    actually if you do this, only play G7 in bar two it sounds great. It’s nice to only have it then. Try it.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Jonah, correct me if I'm wrong on this one, been too long since.....


    Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo | Bb/F G7 | Cm7 F7 ||

    The Bb/F was not considered a proper I chord but rather as a
    I/V suspension of the V chord.

    I heard and understood this viewpoint but still hear it as an inverted
    I chord.

    reduction:

    Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo | Bb/F | F7 ||
    Interesting analysis - cadential 6 4 chord. It does make sense on some level.

    Barry would think about putting an F6 chord on Bb, so Bbmaj9. Now if you run the F6-dim scale you get the Eo7. One way of viewing it.

    However as the Eo7 is interchangeable with the Ebm6 functionally, not sure how that works.... and I have to say I also hear Bb/F as a tonic chord.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well it's not resolving to Ab, so it's neither here there. ... It's just decorating a basic thing. ... Imost people (Lester, Charlie C etc) back then played lines around Bb tonality with lots of blues ...
    Commonly, If tune is in Bb you can hardly avoid playing Bb tonality. If it is Jazz tune, you can hardly avoid blues. Evans too, from the beginning to that "unhelpful Ab" and probably further, all he plays is Bb with added #4/b5 and #5, which serve their blues role and so on.
    Also in jazz, you will hardly avoid decorating. So, all that is given.
    Issue is, why some particular and seemingly unconnected decoration works? Sure, you can say "it is because one way or another it is a part of some turnaround and turnarounds are interchangeable". But then, why turnarounds work?
    "Play into chords, do not care about vertical". That actually mean: play so to establish vertical relationship. On the way to chord, what was implied by notes being played? You did not care about it, but vertical stuff was implied. Such is the nature. It takes care about itself.

    Original question was not about playing Bb tonality with bluesy stuff over rhythm changes in Bb.
    It was: why is Ab7 unhelpful, as written in that transcription of Bill Evans playing rhythm changes in Bb and what was he thinking when he played certain set of notes at that place, if we agree those notes came from Edim(7)?

    Your initial answer was " because there is no vertical connection ... New Orleans Tuba lines ... ".

    In my previous message, I did not try to answer whether writing Ab7 was unhelpful, or not.
    I wrote it because I think there is vertical connection, including tuba lines, although I do not know if Bill Evans was thinking about them.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Commonly, If tune is in Bb you can hardly avoid playing Bb tonality. If it is Jazz tune, you can hardly avoid blues. Evans too, from the beginning to that "unhelpful Ab" and probably further, all he plays is Bb with added #4/b5 and #5, which serve their blues role and so on.
    Also in jazz, you will hardly avoid decorating. So, all that is given.
    I mean staying on Bb tonic chord, rather than expressing the Cm7 F7 or Eb7 chords. Check out Lester Young etc.

    Issue is, why some particular and seemingly unconnected decoration works? Sure, you can say "it is because one way or another it is a part of some turnaround and turnarounds are interchangeable". But then, why turnarounds work?
    "Play into chords, do not care about vertical". That actually mean: play so to establish vertical relationship. On the way to chord, what was implied by notes being played? You did not care about it, but vertical stuff was implied. Such is the nature. It takes care about itself.
    in the sense that chords set up dissonance and resolution. You make a vertical resolution at the time of your choosing instead of faithfully expressing the written changes, which is what a lot of people think they have to do

    Original question was not about playing Bb tonality with bluesy stuff over rhythm changes in Bb.
    It was: why is Ab7 unhelpful, as written in that transcription of Bill Evans playing rhythm changes in Bb and what was he thinking when he played certain set of notes at that place, if we agree those notes came from Edim(7)?
    because I think it would have been clearer to the average student if he’d just had Eb7 for the whole bar. Obviously we’ll never know what he was thinking, but it’s more likely to be this from my understanding of bebop technique. Ab7/Ebm6 is an embellishment as is Eo7.

    Your initial answer was " because there is no vertical connection ... New Orleans Tuba lines ... ".

    In my previous message, I did not try to answer whether writing Ab7 was unhelpful, or not.
    I wrote it because I think there is vertical connection, including tuba lines, although I do not know if Bill Evans was thinking about them.
    yeah, by then they were just jazz bass lines. Ray brown was playing them. Later Jamerson (listen to Signed Sealed Delivered.) and so on. And then Jaco. Or in the blues. Andy Jaffe calls them ‘blues endings’ - play them as the outro for a shuffle blues and you’ll hear it.

    Part of the furniture. There’s a lot of shit people play without realising where it came from.

    Anyway, just go and check out the music and form your own conclusions. I just observed that players from the pre- college era (you know back when jazz had actual popular culture currency haha) tend to treat the different routes as if they are interchangeable.

    if you want to make up some theory about that, be my guest. I prefer to just go with the simple explanation (it’s only a passing chord and no one cares what you do on those.)

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I mean staying on Bb tonic chord, rather than expressing the Cm7 F7 or Eb7 chords. Check out Lester Young etc.
    As long as both the chords and notes are diatonic to key/scsle, it is impossible to differentiate. Chords will be expressed, intentionally, or not.

    in the sense that chords set up dissonance and resolution. You make a vertical resolution at the time of your choosing instead of faithfully expressing the written changes, which is what a lot of people think they have to do
    I am not fan of "it's in the flow". As well as I am not of "playing into resolution". I have some philosophical reasons I will not discuss.
    Anyway, as far as I am concerned, if it sounds good, it is diatonic to something being played at that moment, or to something being implied, or it is pure "sound on sound".

    because I think it would have been clearer to the average student if he’d just had Eb7 for the whole bar. Obviously we’ll never know what he was thinking, but it’s more likely to be this from my understanding of bebop technique. Ab7/Ebm6 is an embellishment as is Eo7.
    I can agree, but still. Why someone wrote Ab7 and not any of other options?
    Maybe it was case of "write whichever standard progression, they are interchangeable", but maybe, for some reason, he/she considered that writing Ab7 was the best way to do it. What you established was Edim7 line, he/she maybe understood as something else?
    If former, it is a proof that "it is nterchangeable" approach does not really work.

    Part of the furniture. There’s a lot of shit people play without realising where it came from.
    Are we such people? Or, are we dancer?

    I just observed that players from the pre- college era (you know back when jazz had actual popular culture currency haha) tend to treat the different routes as if they are interchangeable.
    Some are, some are not. In the heat of the moment anything can pass, but eventually it makes the result (music) worthless. Which, btw, is one of a.m. reasons I will not discuss.

    I prefer to just go with the simple explanation (it’s only a passing chord and no one cares what you do on those.)
    That is not explanation. That is description, "what" and "who".
    We want "why" and "how".

    What about "when"?

  42. #41

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    I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this but obviously I'm weak.

    I've never seen so much real nonsense talked about music till I got involved with jazz stuff. So -

    The rhythm changes progression is just a simple folk or blues thing. It's practically a nursery rhyme:

    C - G7 - C - G7
    C - F - C - G7

    Then you extend it a bit:

    C/Am - Dm/G7 - C/Am - Dm/G7
    C/C7 - F/Fm - Em/Am - Dm/G7

    Then you sub-dom it for fun:

    C/A7 - D7/G7 - C/A7 - D7/G7
    C/C7 - F/Fm - Em/A7 - Dm/G7

    Or you can smooth it out with dim chords. It can be as complicated or simple as you like:

    C/C#o - Dm/D#o - Em/Ebo - Dm/G7

    All the many versions are just variations on this. It's a pick 'n mix thing. Help yourself, have fun!

    (You can sub that Fm with Ab7 if you like but it's probably unnecessary)

    Then do the verse three times and stick a bridge in the middle:

    E7 ------ A7 -------- D7 ------- G7

    Wow, a simple backcycle back to C...

    and you've got an AABA 32-bar standard which, naturally, you have to put into Bb. The horns get to play it in C but the rest of us have to use trickier keys.

    And play it really, really fast, of course.

    That's all. The rest is just complicating what has already been complicated.

    So just take your rhythm changes chords and play

    C - G7 - C - G7
    C - F - C - G7

    Or even

    C/Eb7 - D7/Db7 - C/Eb7 - D7/Db7
    C/F#7 - F/Ab7 - E7/Eb7 - D7/Db7

    and nobody'll know the difference :-)
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-24-2020 at 06:44 AM.

  43. #42

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    And just to prove I'm completely uncontrollable, here's one in Bb.

    For the subbed version I constructed the most extreme thing I could think of. Nothing was manipulated, it's take 1.

    Of course, no one in their right mind would play it like this but it goes to show.

    | BbM7 Bo | Cm11 B7b5 | Dm7 F#7#9/Db | Cm7 B7+ |
    | Gm9/D Db13 | EbM7 Dbo | Dm7 G7alt | F#7alt F7alt |

    | BbM7 Bo | Cm11 B7b5 | Dm7 F#7#9/Db | Cm7 B7+ |
    | Gm9/D Db13 | EbM7 Dbo | Dm7 Ab13 | Bb6 |

    | F#m7b5 | Ebo | Dm7 | E7#9 |
    | A13 | E7#9 | Ebo | Ab13 |

    | BbM7 Bo | Cm11 B7b5 | Dm7 F#7#9/Db | Cm7 B7+ |
    | Gm9/D Db13 | EbM7 Dbo | Dm7 Ab13 | Bb6 |

  44. #43

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    I forgot, I could have put AM7 instead of F7 but it's too late now :-)

    Of course, I also know it's not really the chords that are the problem, it's the solo. A fast bebop solo is no easy thing.
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-24-2020 at 10:51 AM.

  45. #44

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    Nice posts ragman, points well made.

    You neglected to delay resolution to Bb in
    bar 16 and 32. So much unused opportunity.......

  46. #45

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    Good old Bemsha Swing by Monk

    | Bb G7 | Gb7 B7 | Bb Db7 | C7 B7 |

  47. #46

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    Anyway he was trying to explain to me the importance of the diminished chord - how he thought of the diminished chord as the root chord. That all chords can come from the diminished. As I said, I couldn't grasp it then, but the way the concept lit him up it seemed to be a "key to all mysteries" type of idea.


    Well, we're still working on the spirit of the OP.

    I am enjoying all the ideas though.

  48. #47

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    Oh, Wikipedia: "...dominant function, which means that it creates an instability that requires the tonic for resolution. Dominant triads, seventh chords, and ninth chords typically have dominant function."
    I would add, and so do diminished chords (which function as rootles dominants)

  49. #48

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    Diminished chords do not in fact always function as rootless dominants

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Diminished chords do not in fact always function as rootless dominants
    So, if Sam b is still with us.....I mean, if he hasn't shot himself by now...he was given a "Rosebud" moment by Mr. Basman before he, unfortunately, had to leave us.

    Now, this is probably in that realm...so go ahead.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Diminished chords do not in fact always function as rootless dominants
    Indeed, and I'd go so far as to say they weren't dominant chords at all. A 7b9 might look like diminished chord but it's not. It's like saying a CM9 is an Em7 chord. It's not.