The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yes. I don't recall seeing it elsewhere in the standards rep.

    It just doesn't sound right if you do it in most situations.

    Dm7 Dbo7 | Cm7 Bo7 | Bbmaj7

    In a Rhythm Changes for example, but in the Jobim it sounds amazing.

    I suppose that's why music is an artform?
    I had a quick look through the 3 vols of the Jobim songbook and didn’t notice this device anywhere but Insensatez. So even Jobim may have only used it once.

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  3. #77

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    Prelude No. 4 Opus 28 by Chopin

    "This prelude uses what I can only think to call the "chromatic slip down technique." While it would be possible to label all the ensuing chords with function symbols or Roman numerals, few of them would resolve in the way they are "supposed" to resolve. The F# diminished seventh chord in the second half of the second measure, for example, could be called a viiº7/III, except the chord moves into a F7 , which is, what exactly?—V7/bIII in the relative major? Similarly, the E7 chord in measure 4 would be called a V7/IV in traditional harmonic progressions, but it does not move in any way towards A minor. The "chromatic slip down technique" is an elaborate way to get from i to V, and to express poignant, "world-weariness" at the same time. It is ambiguous harmony in service to a higher poetic purpose. I must point out an error in the copy. This anthology prints from an old edition, where the chord near the final cadence, just before the fermata over the half rest, is spelled like a C7 chord in third inversion. But in fact, in Chopin's hand, the Bb is spelled as A#, the making this a German 6th chord (C to A# is the augmented sixth, or in this case the diminished third) with the sixth in the bass, resolving in this case "properly" to the dominant of E. "
    http://legacy.earlham.edu/~tobeyfo/musictheory/Book2/FFH2_CH6/6F_ChopinChromaticism.html

    Last edited by rintincop; 04-28-2020 at 12:08 AM.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Here's my Chopin Prelude No. 4 Opus 28 lead sheet; I've been playing it on solo piano gigs for many years:
    B4 be like B D# E F#?

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yes. I don't recall seeing it elsewhere in the standards rep.

    It just doesn't sound right if you do it in most situations.
    Quite. I'll have a look. I know a Bossa site, that might give up something.

    PS. The Chopin/Jobim thing is very old hat :-)

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    I had a quick look through the 3 vols of the Jobim songbook and didn’t notice this device anywhere but Insensatez. So even Jobim may have only used it once.
    But I repeat, it's not 'resolving to BbM7', it's just a connecting chord in a chromatically descending sequence to Dm.

  7. #81

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    What's the definition of resolving?
    Last edited by rintincop; 04-28-2020 at 12:05 AM.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    What's the definition of resolving?
    Dm7-G7-CM7 is a ii-V-I progression that resolves to the tonic C.

    But it's not right to say 'Dm7 resolves to G7' because they happen to be next to each other. Otherwise you could take any two chords and say one was resolving to the other.

    Resolve means to come to a resting place, a finality, a completion, within the right context. To resolve a problem is to solve it so it's no longer an issue. An unresolved crime is one they can't solve.

    A good example of musical resolution, apart from chord progressions, is a suspended chord. An open D chord with the top G played - xx0233 - sounds unresolved. When it goes back to D major - xx0232 - it sounds resolved and complete.

    The very essence of music is that, tension and resolution.

  9. #83

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    Just to bang on a bit...

    It's quite interesting why a dominant blues sounds resolved to our ears. It shouldn't really

  10. #84

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    Resolution does not mean a resting place or finality. There are different types of resolutions (plagal, deceptive etc). V chord resolving to I is not the same as V chord resolving to iii. There are different degrees of conclusion. One is like period, the other is like a comma.
    The whole secondary dominant concept is based on these incomplete resolutions. That's why altered dominants work in say rhythm bridge.

    Sometimes a chord works as a passing chord because of voice leading. Say a diminished chord may not have a diatonic or secondary dominant function but just work as a smooth connection between two functional chords.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 04-28-2020 at 07:23 AM.

  11. #85

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    I said:

    'Resolve means to come to a resting place, a finality, a completion, within the right context'

    You're discussing contexts. Quite right.

    If it doesn't resolve then it's unresolved, which means it's floating about with nowhere to go. It's one or the other.

  12. #86

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    Resolution itself is a relative concept. For centuries the minor triad wasn't considered a proper consonance (why minor key Renaissance pieces usually ended on the major chord or bare fifths, something that Bach continued to do)

    And of course in jazz we regard chords with added notes to be consonant.. it's relative. C6/9 or Cmaj13 is more consonant seeming than G7#9.

    But there's still a sliding scale... A triad will always be a simpler sound that some lydian cluster voicing....

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Resolution itself is a relative concept
    How relative?

    From now on it's only Locrian for me... who said it's a horrible mode? Resolves perfectly to itself :-)


  14. #88

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    chords with added notes
    Do you mean extended diatonically or altered? Diatonic extensions don't affect much although it depends on context, probably the harmony underneath them.

    But altered notes are quite deliberately made unresolved precisely because they can be resolved, like G7#5b9 to CM9#11. The #11 is not diatonic but no one would regard that sound as unresolved.

    An A7b9 to Dm7 in the middle of a tune in C is also a resolution because it's a perfect minor V-i (or, strictly, V of ii). But the Dm7 isn't resolved in the context of the tune as a whole.

  15. #89

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    The tonic has the sound of final resolution. However, resolution to the tonic may take "the long way home" by a path of partial increasing resolutions, often with departures from resolution in order to sustain or prolong the overall path length. I notice that just because the path of chords reaches the tonic that does not necessarily mean the end. Of the first three times the tonic is encountered, I hear that as complete resolution, yet the next chords seems to sound like increasing resolution on their way to a subsequent resolution - without having produced immediate decreases from which to manifest their increase.

    I'm curious if others agree with my tracking of resolution, below.

    Also wondering how others think about the tonic being completely and firmly totally resolved "home", yet one can follow the tonic with a chord that seems to sound like it is furthering additional increase toward resolution (achieving additional resolution after the tonic without an apparent decrease from which to resolve).

    x 8 9 9 8 x this is the tonic
    x 7 7 7 8 x increasing resolution (after the tonic!)
    x 6 7 7 8 x increasing resolution
    x x 6 7 8 8 neutral, maybe slight decrease in resolution
    x x 5 5 5 7 increasing resolution
    x 7 7 7 8 x neutral
    x 9 10 9 12 x increasing
    x 12 14 12 15 x neutral
    x 12 13 12 15 x increasing
    x 15 16 15 18 x neutral
    x 14 14 14 15 x increasing (this is the tonic)
    x 12 13 12 15 x increasing
    x 11 11 11 12 x increasing
    x 9 10 9 12 x increasing
    x 8 9 9 8 x increasing (this is the tonic)
    x 7 6 7 8 x increasing
    6 x 6 5 5 x increasing
    5 x 5 5 5 x increasing
    x 6 5 6 6 x decreasing
    x 5 4 5 6 x increasing
    4 x 4 5 5 x increasing
    3 x 2 2 3 x increasing (this is the tonic)

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Do you mean extended diatonically or altered?
    So, this depends. Because not all diatonic extensions are consonant.

    To be honest, in general, most of the extensions we encounter in actual repertoire are diatonic, if not to the overall key centre then to some temporary key centre or modal interchange in the melody (for instance major/minor or blues). The extensions we add into changes are our own business...

    Even things like Kenny Wheeler and Wayne tunes, the extensions come from harmonising a diatonic note (i.e. in the key) with a chromatic chord. For instance, from the Kenny tune Kind Folk. The melody is clearly diatonic to C major, but the harmony is not.

    The Importance of Being Diminished-screenshot-2020-04-29-10-11-32-jpg

    The extensions represent the C major melody against the Fmaj7 and Ab7 chords. (notice no one likes to write F#m11b5 haha. This is not Kenny's chart so I don't know what he had.)

    I bring this up because some people tend to go 'oh yes vanilla, but not modern jazz with modal interchange harmonic blue notes organisation advanced concepts' and I think it's fairly obvious in that at least this case Kenny was writing a diatonic nice tune, and harmonising with nice chords. (It's a gorgeous thing actually. Also recorded as Heyoke.) Now that doesn't tell you how to solo on it... but it shows Kenny's approach to composition here was not that different from a standards composer...

    Often the best practice is to improvise on the melody in these tunes, because just applying chord scale stuff can destroy the mood.

    But the thing is... as a musician, the sounds are not interchangeable. Some tunes want a complex major sound, others want a simple one. Sometimes you want a seventh, sometimes you don't, and so on.

    But in any case, a lot of what we think of as extensions in say, Stella, are long diatonic appogiaturas (the melody is in Bb with two accidentals) - the always resolve to a triadic chord tone in the latter half of the bar (look at the original changes). So the guy who wrote Stella heard them as dissonances, but jazz improvisers hear them as colours. That's the paradigm shift...

    Diatonic extensions don't affect much although it depends on context, probably the harmony underneath them.
    That's not quite accurate. For instance, putting a 4th on a major chord changes its character quite a lot.

    But altered notes are quite deliberately made unresolved precisely because they can be resolved, like G7#5b9 to CM9#11. The #11 is not diatonic but no one would regard that sound as unresolved.
    Yeah. I agree.

    Which covers my last point re: the 4... I would not use #11 in all situations. It can be a bit much. But acoustically it works as a resolution.

    But this is my point really. G7#5b9 is 'gubbins' it doesn't have an identity of its own. So you can use any cadence you like into the C chord. It's just going to Cmaj7#11. You could play A7-->D if you wanted!

    However, it is a thing for modern players to disassociate this altered dominant sound as a voice leading moment type of thing and recontextualise it as a sound in its own right.

    So we get, for instance:

    Eb on G7 D on Cmaj7

    Obviously both sounds are consonant to some degree. In this case the tonic chord is more complex.

    An A7b9 to Dm7 in the middle of a tune in C is also a resolution because it's a perfect minor V-i (or, strictly, V of ii). But the Dm7 isn't resolved in the context of the tune as a whole.
    Well these tonicisations/temporary key changes represent levels of detail the improviser can add in or ignore according to taste.

  17. #91

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    G7#5b9 is 'gubbins' it doesn't have an identity of its own
    Would that apply to any altered chord? That is, they're the work of man... but as opposed to what? I'd say 'alt' was a standard identity in current musical terms.
    The Importance of Being Diminished-kind-folk-wheeler-concert-lead-sheet-jpg

    PS. I hate to tout my own stuff but you might care for this (as we're talking about resolution):

    Our Own Compositions. Post them here!
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-29-2020 at 11:43 AM.

  18. #92

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    "resolution" through a specific
    voice leading
    procedure.
    Last edited by rintincop; 04-30-2020 at 04:13 PM.

  19. #93

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    "...so in the end..."

    ...as they say...

    what did Sam b "take" about the diminished chord?

  20. #94

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    "The Importance Of Being Diminished"

  21. #95

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    A true gateway to improvisation lost in academic babel.

  22. #96

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    Try as I may , i can't make the HW or WH dim scale
    sound any good on anything ...

    I know where they SHOULD fit but ....
    (I do like the sound of dim arpeggio played on dim chords)

    can anyone help me with a nice sounding line or two
    to study , in the context of a tune would be great ....

    I don't need any more theory thanks chaps
    just a nice practical example or two