The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    You mean for instance:

    Em7b5 | A7b9 | Cm7 | F7

    ?

    Interesting thing is there is actually a dominant function buried in there, but I'm not sure it helps to know that.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    So, if Sam b is still with us.....I mean, if he hasn't shot himself by now...he was given a "Rosebud" moment by Mr. Basman before he, unfortunately, had to leave us.

    Now, this is probably in that realm...so go ahead.
    Well it's hardly out there stuff. Things like

    Cm7 | F7 | Bbo7 | Bbmaj7
    Cm7 | F7 | Dbo7 | Bb/D
    Eb7 | Eo7 | Bb/F

    And so on.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You mean for instance:

    Em7b5 | A7b9 | Cm7 | F7

    ?

    Interesting thing is there is actually a dominant function buried in there, but I'm not sure it helps to know that.
    I'm sure this is the way much confusion starts. A CM9, as I said, is CEGBD and contains all the notes of an Em7 - EGBD - but a CM9 is a major chord, not a minor chord.

    Similarly, an A7b9 may contain the notes of the Bb/E/Db/G dim7 but it's a dominant chord, not a diminished chord as we know it. Also similarly, a Bb/E/D/G diminished is a diminished chord, not a dominant. Dim7s are things to themselves.

    In your example, it's the A7 which has the dominant function, not any diminished chord. In fact, there isn't a diminished chord there at all.

    Soloing-wise, we might be able to run a diminished line over the A7b9 because of the similarity but that doesn't change anything. We could also run an A alt scale up it because it is, in effect, an altered A7.

    Part of the problem is there's a difference between a diminished triad and a diminished 7 chord. If the dim triads in either the major or melodic minor scales are extended they become m7b5 chords, not dim7s. Only the harmonic minor has a dim7 (at the 7th degree).

    I'm not saying I'm 100% right but personally I like to keep doms and dims separate. It's just a thing.
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-28-2020 at 04:01 AM.

  5. #54

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    The Importance of Being Diminished-untitled-jpg

    Naughty, naughty. Presumably the responses in blue came from someone who wanted their post deleted. They might not thank you for reversing their decision for them!

    'What many players do' is their business.

    'Nice subs' is true but not factually based.

    'Not really' isn't an explanation.

    'How is this relevant?' It's completely relevant. Western harmony is tertiary. Chords are derived from scales.

    The other points are both personal preferences, not a factual point. There's no law or ultimate authority with music, each one can do what they like. No one will get shot because they invent a new sound or change accepted practices. So I agree with the poster.

    But we might get shot for resurrecting posts that their authors want deleted. Unless it was you in the first place, of course :-)
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-28-2020 at 04:01 AM.

  6. #55

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    I've absolutely no intention of getting into an argument. If someone can correct me with fact, I'll be most contrite. But opinions, no.


    'Music theorists have struggled over the centuries to explain the meaning and function of diminished seventh chords.'


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_seventh_chord

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I've absolutely no intention of getting into an argument. If someone can correct me with fact, I'll be most contrite. But opinions, no.


    'Music theorists have struggled over the centuries to explain the meaning and function of diminished seventh chords.'


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_seventh_chord
    Musicians used them and theorists were confused by them... that’s the way it should be.

  8. #57

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    Absolutely. I see one, I play it. I hear one, I use it. They sound nice. I don't care why.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I

    Similarly, an A7b9 may contain the notes of the Bb/E/Db/G dim7 but it's a dominant chord, not a diminished chord as we know it. Also similarly, a Bb/E/D/G diminished is a diminished chord, not a dominant. Dim7s are things to themselves.

    In your example, it's the A7 which has the dominant function, not any diminished chord. In fact, there isn't a diminished chord there at all.
    Not sure why this discussion is getting so doctrinaire but one might say that diminished can serve as substitute for dominant chords in specific contexts. Many musicians will use a C#dim7 to substitute for an A7 if the melody allows for it. It does this because it contains the tri-tone - two of them in fact. That being said, the dominant function does not exhaust the functionality of a diminished chord. For example, you have the Idim7 chord or the descending bIII passing chord that do not assimilate to a dominant function. The dim7th is harmonically unstable (containing two tritones) and completely ambiguous when played in isolation and can practically go anywhere. It is context that drives the function. That seems to be why it is so useful.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well it's hardly out there stuff. Things like

    Cm7 | F7 | Bbo7 | Bbmaj7

    And so on.
    OK, looking at this progression I see the dim on the tonic just before resolving to the tonic.
    But could you explain why that is "hardly out there stuff", I'm not familiar with that expression.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    OK, looking at this progression I see the dim on the tonic just before resolving to the tonic.
    But could you explain why that is "hardly out there stuff", I'm not familiar with that expression.
    I think Christian is saying this is fairly standard harmonic technique. He is correct in that it is very old and found in the long classical era and early popular music.

    See as we are nerding out on diminished chords, I offer up this hand out on common tone diminished chords, that expands what we are talking about in regard to the Idim chord.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberoo
    I think Christian is saying this is fairly standard harmonic technique. He is correct in that it is very old and found in the long classical era and early popular music.

    See as we are nerding out on diminished chords, I offer up this hand out on common tone diminished chords, that expands what we are talking about in regard to the Idim chord.
    I’m sure you caught it out all three dim chords are inversions of the same thing and resolving to the tonic.

    Bearing in mind most of my musings come from observations of what people seem to play rather than the myriad of possibilities....

    Interesting Thing - as far as I can tell, people tend to treat biiio7 differently if it goes to I then if it goes to ii V. The second example is actually an example of hidden dominant function because it goes II7 (iim7) V7, but raise the root of the II mixolydian up by a half step. So in C

    D E F# G A B C (D mix)
    to
    D# E F# G A B C

    (Even for Insenatez where we never really get V per se.)

    this is iii harmonic minor starting on the 7. The related dominant here is that VII7b9 from Stella. So that’s the connection. VII7b9 moving to (iim7) V7. Diminished symmetry (brothers and sisters)

    ——-

    If the biiio7 goes to I it relates to a #IVo7 and Io7 much more.

    in this case IV7 or VII7 is the most common dominant relationship. Tritone subs. As we get IV7-I we could think of this as the blues resolution. Indeed the I blues scale is a great choice here, especially descending from b5. The chords are very often used to harmonise b3 and b5 blue notes in the melody.

    The harmonic minor on V would be the choice that emerges from the Barry Harris approach (IV mixolydian with a sharpened root.)

    But I wonder if that’s really a common approach? I would say bluesy ideas, dim arpeggios are much more common in recordings. Or just ignoring that chord or pretending it’s something else. Or the whole half scale (see Bill Evans.)

    (Jordan Klemons suggests basing your playing on this chord on the VII triad which does sound great. We can add the b9. Again this contains both the b3 and the b5 of the key. Simple but, clean, modern sounding and effective. interestingly that seems to take us back to iii harmonic minor, but also whole-half. It does for both.)

    Other resolutions for dim chords are very rare. There’s only one I can think of off the top of my head:

    Cm7 Bo7 Bbmaj7 from Insenatez. Very unusual!
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-26-2020 at 02:23 PM.

  13. #62

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    TL;DR if we are going to use Barry Harris ‘brothers and sisters’ metaphor for the relationship between dominants and diminished it seems to me some are very much the favourites over the others.

    Like swapping out Dm7b5 G7 Cm for Dm7b5 E7 Cm as opposed to Dm7b5 Db7 Cm

    This is also true of common tone dims

  14. #63

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    Other resolutions for dim chords are very rare. There’s only one I can think of off the top of my head:

    Cm7 Bo7 Bbmaj7 from Insenatez. Very unusual![/QUOTE]

    one other way to see it as a tritone sub..

    Cmi7 E7b9/B BbM7

  15. #64

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    It's not resolving to Bb because the tune's in Dm. The Bb is just a chord along the way.

    There's a descending bass line from Dm in the previous bars:

    Dm - Db7 - Cm - Bo - Bb - A7 - Dm

    The Bo is just a connecting chord. It could just as easily have been a B7b5 but the trouble with that is that it does sound as though it's resolved to the BbM7 and you don't want that. The Bo gives the feel that there's still somewhere to go.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    one other way to see it as a tritone sub..

    Cmi7 E7b9/B BbM7
    How does that help? :-)

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It's not resolving to Bb because the tune's in Dm. The Bb is just a chord along the way.

    There's a descending bass line from Dm in the previous bars:

    Dm - Db7 - Cm - Bo - Bb - A7 - Dm

    The Bo is just a connecting chord. It could just as easily have been a B7b5 but the trouble with that is that it does sound as though it's resolved to the BbM7 and you don't want that. The Bo gives the feel that there's still somewhere to go.
    Sure

    But - if you can find an example of this resolution to any maj7 chord in another song subdominant, tonic whatever, let me know. I can’t think of one. Can you?

    I don’t care if people can rationalise it with theory; my statement was that it was unusual in the repertoire.

    (you can rationalise anything with theory.)

    in terms of what I’d play on it, I’d play options from C harmonic minor. Cm - Bb is not that weird really. And this is a very simple flowing approach to that chord that suits the song in my opinion.

    I would tend to avoid using the dim chord like this in most situations... feels weak compared to a V7 or bII7. But maybe that’s it’s charm... bridging chord as you say.

    there is something very beautiful about that change of colour in that place in that song, that I don’t think really works elsewhere... it’s the sound of that song... but that’s Jobim for you.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-27-2020 at 09:11 AM.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    if you can find an example of this resolution to any maj7 chord in another song subdominant, tonic whatever, let me know. I can’t think of one. Can you?
    I could have a look but I don't know songs that well. I'm assuming you mean a diminished a half-tone above a M7. Is that right?

    .. but that’s Jobim for you.
    Too true, but isn't this tune based on a Chopin prelude?

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    So, if Sam b is still with us.....I mean, if he hasn't shot himself by now...he was given a "Rosebud" moment by Mr. Basman before he, unfortunately, had to leave us.

    Now, this is probably in that realm...so go ahead.
    Ah, no, I haven't shot myself yet. Thanks, I think....
    I think that probably what Ken was trying to explain was either the point that I got from the Henry Johnson video and was expanded on very early in this thread or it was a more esoteric mystical thing like Pat Martino's diagrams that, while I enjoy looking at, are far beyond my brain to translate in a practical way.
    Thanks for helping me out.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam b
    Thanks for helping me out.
    Honestly, I don't think I helped that much. But don't wander too far from what your good friend was telling you.

  21. #70

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    Resolution is the move of a note or chord from dissonance (an unstable sound) to a consonance (a more final or stable sounding one).

    "Wave"

    | Dmaj7 | Bbdim7 | A-7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | G-6 | etc.

    Bar 4-5 of Chopin Prelude Op 28 No. 4 in E minor, which I have played for 50 years, bars 4-5 does the Edim to A-7/E movement. Bars 2-3 goes F#dim7 to F7. Bar 14 goes F#dim7 to F7. Bar 15 Fdim7 to E7. Bar 16 C#dim to A-/C.
    Last edited by rintincop; 04-28-2020 at 12:07 AM.

  22. #71

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    Chopin Prelude No. 4 Opus 28 in E Minor
    Attached Images Attached Images The Importance of Being Diminished-chopin-prelude-op-28-no-4-page1-51c90bcbef2b41-jpg 

  23. #72

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    How Insensitive
    Attached Images Attached Images

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I could have a look but I don't know songs that well. I'm assuming you mean a diminished a half-tone above a M7. Is that right?
    Yes. I don't recall seeing it elsewhere in the standards rep.

    It just doesn't sound right if you do it in most situations.

    Dm7 Dbo7 | Cm7 Bo7 | Bbmaj7

    In a Rhythm Changes for example, but in the Jobim it sounds amazing.

    I suppose that's why music is an artform?

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Resolution is the move of a note or chord from dissonance (an unstable sound) to a consonance (a more final or stable sounding one).

    "Wave"

    | Dmaj7 | Bbdim7 | A-7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | G-6 | etc.

    Bar 4-5 of Chopin Prelude Op 28 No. 4 in E minor, which I have played for 50 years, bars 4-5 does the Edim to A-7/E movement. Bars 2-3 goes F#dim7 to F7. Bar 14 goes F#dim7 to F7. Bar 15 Fdim7 to E7. Bar 16 C#dim to A-/C.
    That Bbdim7 is a pretty typical thing though to be followed with A-7 D7, here in the subdominant area..

    I'll have to check out the Chopin...

  26. #75

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    All diminished uses I know can simply be stated:

    Functional:
    o Leading note diminished: resolves a half step above. Effectively b9 backdoor dominant
    o #IV diminished: Resolves to the 2nd inversion of I (5th on the bass). It's also the same chord as I dim which also resolves to I.
    o bIII diminished: Resolves to IImin.

    Non-functional:
    o As a passing chord: Anytime a diminished chord voices fall between the voices of two chords ascending or descending, throwing the diminished in between usually works in retrospect even if it doesn't correspond to any in the "functional" category. The difference is these chords do not have a meaningful functional (ie secondary dominant) interpretation, so they don't usually get their own measures.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 04-28-2020 at 08:53 AM.