The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    When I was in my 20s I was working as a teacher in the Mexican town of San Miguel de Allende. This was in the 90s. I was playing a lot of mandolin and getting into jazz and there was a terrific jazz guitarist who lived there named Ken Basman. I took a lesson from him - it was one of those lessons that was really amazing even though I don't think I gained anything of practical knowledge - I wasn't ready yet for what he was giving out, still may not be. He was a deep thinker about the guitar - he'd do things like set his metronome as slow as possible - like a beat ever 8 seconds - and try to play in time. The lesson made me see how expansive one's thoughts could be about the guitar, jazz and music.

    Anyway he was trying to explain to me the importance of the diminished chord - how he thought of the diminished chord as the root chord. That all chords can come from the diminished. As I said, I couldn't grasp it then, but the way the concept lit him up it seemed to be a "key to all mysteries" type of idea.

    As I continued learning more and more, now on guitar, I was reminded of this lesson he was trying to teach and I thought I'd reach out to him in hopes that maybe I would understand it a little more. But I was too late. I was saddened to find his obituary. He had died a few years back from a heart attack. It was just really depressing to know that he was gone, that his family would miss him, that he would no longer be adding music to the world. The whole idea of finding out why the diminished chord was so vital seemed trivial.

    So last night, I was watching a Truefire video of Henry Johnson talking about the diminished chord a parent chord (the lesson is mistitled "the Dom7 as the parent chord"). In it Johnson shows how if you lower any note of the diminished chord, what you get is a dominant 7th chord. So there's 4 7th chords that you can get out of one dim chord. Then he goes on to show that if you move the diminished chord up one fret and then another how you would have all 12 dominant 7th chords (4x3=12) and also when you move the diminished chord up a minor third you can then find all the inversions of the dominant 7th chords. Then he showed how you can get augmented chords from diminished chords as well.

    I thought that was pretty cool and thought this must have been part of what Ken was trying to explain to me over 20 yrs ago. And I was happy to have been given another opportunity to learn this thing that I wasn't prepared to learn back then.

    But is there more to this idea? Are there further implications to this idea of the diminished chord as a root chord? Are there practical applications to seeing the keyboard this way? Does this come in handy more when thinking about chords or can you also apply this knowledge to single note playing?

    Thanks a lot,
    Sam

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Uh-oh, here comes a 7 page thread.

    Before it starts...you know if you divide the CHROMATIC scale into thirds (that is play a note skip 2 notes) you get three diminished chords.

  4. #3

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    I think people have their theories about this stuff like it actually matters. And the people are like ‘ooh that’s deep’. I don’t think any of it that’s important. It’s all good honest fun.

    Pat Martino has a similar concept. And Barry Harris.

    in the end, it’s like numerology or something.

    the main thing to know here is how dim7 chords and Dom7s relate, understand what Barry calls the family of four.

    From Martino’s guitar perspective you can change a dim7 into four dom7 chords by moving each note in turn down a fret/semitone. This is quite useful for coming up with fingerings actually.

  5. #4

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    Pat talks about this here.
    "Parental forms".



  6. #5

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    I construct all my chord voicings using the I-Ching and a pair of dice.

    The Importance of Being Diminished-7781069c-8771-469d-8108-4f818f169df9-jpg

  7. #6
    "the main thing to know here is how dim7 chords and Dom7s relate, understand what Barry calls the family of four."

    Thanks Christian. Yes, I wasn't really thinking of this as some quasi-spiritual thing. So how do you apply this dim/dom 7 relationship in one's playing?

  8. #7
    Thanks Mark! I'll check that video out tonight

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam b
    "the main thing to know here is how dim7 chords and Dom7s relate, understand what Barry calls the family of four."

    Thanks Christian. Yes, I wasn't really thinking of this as some quasi-spiritual thing. So how do you apply this dim/dom 7 relationship in one's playing?
    well you can take any of the dominant scales and swap them out..

    So on a G7 to Cmja7

    G dominant scale --> Cmaj7
    Bb dom scale --> Cmaj7
    Db dom scale --> Cmaj7
    E dominant scale (the weirdest one) --> Cmaj7

    You can also relate the common dim7 chords to dominant scales, by just taking the root of the dominant and popping it up a semitone... e.g.

    G A B C D E F --> G7
    G# A B C D E F --> G#o7

    So in the key of C you can relate these common dims to dominant scales, these are the ones I use.

    F#o7 --> F7
    Ebo7 --> D7
    C#o7 --> C7

    SO, for instance F F#o7 C

    Becomes F7-->C and you can use the F# to make a dim7 that you can link into the C chord.

    and so on...

    And so. It's very elegant once you get your head around it.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam b
    Thanks Mark! I'll check that video out tonight
    There's a lot available by Pat and also about Pat's approach. I was, once upon a time, most interested in his "minor conversion" (or "convert to minor") approach, which is easier for guitarists than it may be for players of other instruments. (I don't know.)

    As much as I admire Pat's playing, I sometimes his find his explanations more confusing than helpful.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    well you can take any of the dominant scales and swap them out..
    Useful stuff, Christian. Thanks.

    I learned about this from Carol Kaye, who tends to call it "dims for doms." The easiest way for me to get this was to think of the dim chord as starting on the b9 of the dominant one. (Ab dim for G7.)

    She talks a good bit about "moving things up (or down) three frets" and it's more something she wants you to get in your ear than in your thinking. She'll say things like "Ab minor 9 IS G7!" When you get it, you get it, but until you get it there's a lot of, uh, wut?

  12. #11

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    Yes I find myself repeating the same things to confused looking students. I think they get it eventually...

  13. #12

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    My latest one - there's only two chords in the major key, and everything else is just filler...

  14. #13

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    The thing is - everyone has a version of this. They just put it differently. And the crazy thing is it's staring you in the face if you just look at the grips in a different way. What's this for instance?

    x x 3 3 3 5

    And what's this?

    x x 2 3 3 5

  15. #14

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    The diminished chord is very useful in developing smooth voice leading and adding substitutions for secondary dominants. For example, take a plain vanilla set of changes like this (4 beats each chord):

    Cmaj7 | Dmi7 | Emin7 | Dmin7 | Cmaj7

    you can add movement by using secondary dominants like (2 beats each chord):

    Cmaj7 A7 | Dmin7 B7 | Emin7 A7| Dmin7 G7| Cmaj

    the A7 is the secondary dominant for the Dmin7 the B7 for the Emin7 etc

    or you can add movement with diminished chord substitutions for the secondary dominants like:

    Cmaj7 C#dim7 | Dmin7 D#dim7 | Emin7 Edim7 | Dmin7 Ddim7 | Cmaj7

    the C#dim7 is acting like an A7b9 for the Dmin7 and the D#dim7 is acting like a B7b9 etc.

    It is very useful and efficient to use diminished chords in this way.

  16. #15

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    The diminished chord is a gateway chord that corrupts blues guitarists into jazz guitarists.

    As soon as it's discovered that returning from the four to the one sounds cool if inserting at the last second a diminished rooted on the flat five. This leads to experimenting with things like one (major seventh). flat two (diminished), two (minor seventh), flat third (diminished), three (minor seventh), flat three (diminished), flat two (nine flat five), one (major seventh)...

  17. #16

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    There's major, minor and dominant. Diminisheds are useful for connecting them. Beyond that they haven't much significance. They are not the eighth wonder of the world.

    Unless you want to make them so.

  18. #17

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    When looking at say a G7 to Cmaj7 resolution, it is common in jazz to use alterations (different scales) over the G7 chord as an outside sound. One example can be using the G altered scale, but another can be using the G half-whole diminished scale. This scale contains 4 dominant chords, G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7. So we can try voice leading these chords into Cmaj7, as a dominant to tonic movement, but always using the particular diminished scale as filler. Practicing pairs works great, G7-Cmaj7, B7-Cmaj7, etc. Using just triads for the chords is a great sound device too!

    For more out sounds, we can now do all that over a simple Cmaj7 chord vamp. Aka implying a dominant area where there was none. What starts as using a G7-Cmaj7 to create tension, can evolve to using all these chords.

    An interesting thing can be exploring the half whole diminished scale over a dominant tonic chord. It is a very bluesy sound, but a sophisticated one as well. In that scenario, say playing over a C7 vamp, the diminished scale gives us 4 dom7 chords to use, C7, Eb7, Gb7, A7. These chords are our bluesy tonic area now, and we can introduce a dominant area coming from the G7 now as above. So now we'd have 8 dom7 chords to juggle..

    Couple of examples I can come up with as to how it all sounds (at least when I take a shot at it ) are these two videos I have uploaded on the forum before, where both the melody and much of the solos are based on that.




  19. #18

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    i did a post on not the one part Dim7 but dominant subs,which come from Diminished chords and how they can be interchanged/sub/ etc


    imo there are numerous people who name or describe it slightly differently at the end of the day it is more or less the same message.


    additionally most, repeat do not know know and hear Diminished as Tonic/Root, this is because it is fairly difficult on Guitar to play a Diminished Major 7 chord which is. Tonic/Root and is the first chord in Stella. Because its harder to play ( physically) one would not play frequently or if at all. .then im am generalising here more usable and applied by pianists, many dont play this. Errol Garner played this on a version of Misty ( i cant recall now) but then dear Errol is one of the Giants of Jazz Piano my take and Keith Jarretts.


    Diminished is far more complicated in both understanding and hearing as opposed to Major, compounded by that a Diminished chord is Four different and identical chords. This brings ambiguity in. Not just equivalent as in a dom 7 b9 No root. i am talking about a Diminished chord here (now) meaning 1 b3 b5 bb7 eg C Eb Gb E Bbb ( A ) these everyone can play and shift around.


    Barry Harris use Diminished Tonic this is a different funtion, to say diminished connecting chords C C#dim Dmin or b3 Ebdim etc etc.


    Wes used a lot of diminished not really as Tonic, more frequently MinorMaj7


    a fully diminished chord C Eb Gb A and its Upper extensions D (9) F (11) Ab (b6) B (M7)
    so Tonic is Cdim7 the extensions are another diminished chord a tone above D in this case. the notes in D are the extensions of Cdim.


    the notes of C dim7 chord and D dim7 give you the entire Diminished scale.


    To confuse things more Barry Harris talks about a Major scale with an extra note making a 8 note scale thast note is between 5 & 6 eg a #5 or b13
    whatever. Within that scale or should i say every scale produces chords. ie chords come from scales or are within eg regular C major scale the chords Dmin7 & Emin7 are within there, i can see already this could go on all day.


    MY POINT HERE WAS to make one aware of difference of TONIC full Diminished M7 and your regular Dim7




    Dominant subs Family of Four




    Ps. Beato did some of this on YT sometime ago, not Barry Harris, but Diminished as Diminished Tonic

  20. #19

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    x x 8 6 5 5

    I don't think it's that hard?

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    x x 8 6 5 5

    I don't think it's that hard?
    Christian you right, it is just not very common. i was thinking.function purely.


    it is not really the movable sort of chord, it sounds good before the same Root Major Tonic. Must find the version Errol G played

  22. #21

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    A nice way to play the half whole diminished scale with chords is for Cdom7 x1222x x3234x and then ascend in minor thirds so you get from bottom string up:

    x1222x x3234x x4555x x6567x x7888x x98910x x101111x x12111213x

    and same voicings on the top strings

    xx2343 xx4355 xx5676 xx7688 xx89109 xx1091111 xx11121312 xx13121414

    Its a diminished chord scale that can be practiced like the drop-2 ones.

  23. #22

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    Another point: people automatically conflate the dim 7 chord with the ‘diminished scale’

    In fact dim7s are perfectly within the major/minor system. The most common choices in pre Coltrane jazz are diatonic. (The ones I’ve shown above, which happen to be related to harmonic minor.)

    but the dim7 was already out of fashion by this point, kind of a Dixieland and swing era sound.

    In fact using dim scales would be much more popular on dominant chords because there were just more of them.

    Dim7s with ‘funny notes’ in the treble have always been common - for instance Dbo7 in Bb with an A in the melody. Some people have Stella like that, but I hear Eo7 is the original. but check out Basin Street Blues, Djangos Castle, Hungaria, Tea for Two, Out of Nowhere, I Can’t Give You Anything but Love. These are diatonic melody notes against chromatic harmony.

    The only reason I ended up working on dim7 chords is because I played a lot of quaint old jazz....

  24. #23

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    If it’s of any interest here’s a video with a different approach to playing on dim7


  25. #24

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    That said; check out Bill Evans opening A section for a nice example of how to musically use a dim7 scale on the Eo7 in a rhythm changes. (The transcriber has rather unhelpfully written Ab7 here)



    in this situation dim scale is like a dim7 embellished with lower neighbour tones. This is probably how it was first used in jazz lines...

    im sure you can think of many more. Aside from Trane obviously :-)

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think people have their theories about this stuff like it actually matters. And the people are like ‘ooh that’s deep’. I don’t think any of it that’s important. It’s all good honest fun.

    Pat Martino has a similar concept. And Barry Harris.

    in the end, it’s like numerology or something.

    the main thing to know here is how dim7 chords and Dom7s relate, understand what Barry calls the family of four.

    From Martino’s guitar perspective you can change a dim7 into four dom7 chords by moving each note in turn down a fret/semitone. This is quite useful for coming up with fingerings actually.
    I think many things relate through ears amd may be approached from different perspectives... I remember I was a kid when I found that A7 shape works for C7 and for F#7 and Eb7... I did not get why... but it is the same thing basically... and by the way it was very guitaristic - through shapes too