The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That said; check out Bill Evans opening A section for a nice example of how to musically use a dim7 scale on the Eo7 in a rhythm changes. (The transcriber has rather unhelpfully written Ab7 here)
    Why is the Ab7 unhelpful here?

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Why is the Ab7 unhelpful here?
    Edim=A7

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Why is the Ab7 unhelpful here?
    Because it's not the chord Bill Evans is outlining, and students might be confused if they don't know that that chord can also be Eo7 as there is no obvious harmonic relationship between the two.

    Chord symbols are something of a compromise though, to be fair. Do you represent the comping oicings (here not given), the harmony implied by the right hand or the original changes of the chord progression? These can all be different. Some pianists can even play one chord progression in the left, while improvising over a totally different one in the right!

    However, I think what the person who wrote out the transcription has done here is write out the chord symbols for a totally stock jazz school Rhythm Changes.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Because it's not the chord Bill Evans is outlining, and students might be confused if they don't know that that chord can also be Eo7 as there is no obvious harmonic relationship between the two.
    Ok, so say I'm one of those confused students, who, as the OP now wants to know things about the dim chord.
    How, over Eb > Ab7> Bb does Mr. Evens think Eo7?

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Ok, so say I'm one of those confused students, who, as the OP now wants to know things about the dim chord.
    How, over Eb > Ab7> Bb does Mr. Evens think Eo7?
    there is no vertical relationship.

    OK, shit they don’t teach vol 1

    this is a thing that goes back to New Orleans. Basically you have a move from I to IV and back,

    Bb | Eb | Bb

    right?

    So there are two classic tuba bass lines that get used:

    Bb Ab | G Gb | F

    Bb D | Eb E | F

    one normally implies
    Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm6 | Bb

    (Ebm6 is related to Ab7)

    the other

    Bb Bb7 | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F

    Ok? Both do the same job.

    now, in general one is favoured over the other in songs down to the melody. You don’t put the Eo7 when there’s Gb in the melody right? Or an Ebm6 when there’s a G. Some songs will take either; All of Me is a good example.

    OK. So you go back through the recorded history of jazz - Louis, Lester Young, Bird, Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins - and you’ll find again and again in solos, one gets played on the other. Or just an Eb7. Why? Because they both do the same job and they are going to resolve in two beats anyway. The vertical harmony here doesn’t matter.

    So, anyway, Rhythm Changes comes in both flavours and more besides. (And started me on the path towards playing into chords and not worrying about vertical stuff... next lesson, why Bmaj7 on G7 rocks.....)

    Does this make any sense?
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-22-2020 at 05:14 PM.

  7. #31

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    Guess the simple answer could be:

    Edim is Eb7 which is V of Ab.

  8. #32

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    Well it's not resolving to Ab, so it's neither here there.

    Look, rhythm changes is just this:

    Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 |
    Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 |

    So, anything else is just a passing chord. It's no different from the blues. Or any old Dixie tune you might come across.

    The skill the older players had was to weave dim chords in as passing chords and embellish these basic functions. This is a dead art except among specialists, because it's an old school thing, but it's no different from using sideslips or whatever. It's just decorating a basic thing.

    When I first got into playing swing gigs I would see things like this that seemed really unfamiliar:

    Bb Bo7 | Cm7 C#o7 | Dm7 Dbo7 | Cm7 F7 |
    Bb D7 | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F G7 | C7 F7 |

    Rhythm changes Count Basie style. You see changes like this on big band charts, right? If you look at this from a modern chord perspective - it's hard to relate to the standard rhythm changes. In terms of soloing - good luck making every change at high tempos!

    But it's all just movement. You can play your usual shit on it, and it will sound great.

    In practice most people (Lester, Charlie C etc) back then played lines around Bb tonality with lots of blues, and added their own movement in for colour.

    A turnaround is a turnaround, and they are all pretty much interchangeable.

    And then jazz education came along and confused the bejeezus out of everyone by trying to tidy up jazz. Hans Groiner is only half a joke....

    Bird developed this to a fine art with more complexity, but as Steve Coleman points out not all the implied harmony of his lines bear a strict vertical relationship to the written changes. Ethan Iverson has shown how this is true even between the pianists left and right hands lol.

  9. #33

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    Jonah, correct me if I'm wrong on this one, been too long since.....


    Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo | Bb/F G7 | Cm7 F7 ||

    The Bb/F was not considered a proper I chord but rather as a
    I/V suspension of the V chord.

    I heard and understood this viewpoint but still hear it as an inverted
    I chord.

    reduction:

    Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo | Bb/F | F7 ||

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, shit they don’t teach vol 1

    this is a thing that goes back to New Orleans.

    Does this make any sense?
    Yes. I'm printing your posts (and Alter's) to this thread (and some others too, no doubt) and sticking the sheets on my music stand.
    There are some things I get because I can hear them but don't know why they work. (
    There are other things that I see intellectually----okay, this is to that as the other thing is yet another thing; got it---but it isn't something that shows up in my playing because it's not second nature.

    What REALLY strikes me is your reference to MOVEMENT (as in the A section of a tune that's largely one chord or tonality). I like that. But it took a long time to suss out----to the slight extent I have---how to do that 'off the cuff'.

    It's also probably why I love a lot of the New Orleans and swing-era playing so much---it really wasn't about 'making the changes' so much as playing swinging lines with a bluesy feel. That's my briar patch.

    So, thanks for all this!

  11. #35

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    Ray Brown said his most common Rhythm Changes thinking was:

    | Bb G7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb G7 | Cm7 F7 |
    | Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F G7 | C-7 F7 |
    Last edited by rintincop; 04-23-2020 at 01:26 PM.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Ray Brown said his most common Rhythm Changes thinking was:

    | Bb G7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 |
    | Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F G7 | C-7 F7 |
    That’s fairly similar to my stock choice as well.

    Barry would have something to say about the the G7 in bar one (Parker never played it.) Should be Gm7.

    actually if you do this, only play G7 in bar two it sounds great. It’s nice to only have it then. Try it.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Jonah, correct me if I'm wrong on this one, been too long since.....


    Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo | Bb/F G7 | Cm7 F7 ||

    The Bb/F was not considered a proper I chord but rather as a
    I/V suspension of the V chord.

    I heard and understood this viewpoint but still hear it as an inverted
    I chord.

    reduction:

    Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo | Bb/F | F7 ||
    Interesting analysis - cadential 6 4 chord. It does make sense on some level.

    Barry would think about putting an F6 chord on Bb, so Bbmaj9. Now if you run the F6-dim scale you get the Eo7. One way of viewing it.

    However as the Eo7 is interchangeable with the Ebm6 functionally, not sure how that works.... and I have to say I also hear Bb/F as a tonic chord.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well it's not resolving to Ab, so it's neither here there. ... It's just decorating a basic thing. ... Imost people (Lester, Charlie C etc) back then played lines around Bb tonality with lots of blues ...
    Commonly, If tune is in Bb you can hardly avoid playing Bb tonality. If it is Jazz tune, you can hardly avoid blues. Evans too, from the beginning to that "unhelpful Ab" and probably further, all he plays is Bb with added #4/b5 and #5, which serve their blues role and so on.
    Also in jazz, you will hardly avoid decorating. So, all that is given.
    Issue is, why some particular and seemingly unconnected decoration works? Sure, you can say "it is because one way or another it is a part of some turnaround and turnarounds are interchangeable". But then, why turnarounds work?
    "Play into chords, do not care about vertical". That actually mean: play so to establish vertical relationship. On the way to chord, what was implied by notes being played? You did not care about it, but vertical stuff was implied. Such is the nature. It takes care about itself.

    Original question was not about playing Bb tonality with bluesy stuff over rhythm changes in Bb.
    It was: why is Ab7 unhelpful, as written in that transcription of Bill Evans playing rhythm changes in Bb and what was he thinking when he played certain set of notes at that place, if we agree those notes came from Edim(7)?

    Your initial answer was " because there is no vertical connection ... New Orleans Tuba lines ... ".

    In my previous message, I did not try to answer whether writing Ab7 was unhelpful, or not.
    I wrote it because I think there is vertical connection, including tuba lines, although I do not know if Bill Evans was thinking about them.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Commonly, If tune is in Bb you can hardly avoid playing Bb tonality. If it is Jazz tune, you can hardly avoid blues. Evans too, from the beginning to that "unhelpful Ab" and probably further, all he plays is Bb with added #4/b5 and #5, which serve their blues role and so on.
    Also in jazz, you will hardly avoid decorating. So, all that is given.
    I mean staying on Bb tonic chord, rather than expressing the Cm7 F7 or Eb7 chords. Check out Lester Young etc.

    Issue is, why some particular and seemingly unconnected decoration works? Sure, you can say "it is because one way or another it is a part of some turnaround and turnarounds are interchangeable". But then, why turnarounds work?
    "Play into chords, do not care about vertical". That actually mean: play so to establish vertical relationship. On the way to chord, what was implied by notes being played? You did not care about it, but vertical stuff was implied. Such is the nature. It takes care about itself.
    in the sense that chords set up dissonance and resolution. You make a vertical resolution at the time of your choosing instead of faithfully expressing the written changes, which is what a lot of people think they have to do

    Original question was not about playing Bb tonality with bluesy stuff over rhythm changes in Bb.
    It was: why is Ab7 unhelpful, as written in that transcription of Bill Evans playing rhythm changes in Bb and what was he thinking when he played certain set of notes at that place, if we agree those notes came from Edim(7)?
    because I think it would have been clearer to the average student if he’d just had Eb7 for the whole bar. Obviously we’ll never know what he was thinking, but it’s more likely to be this from my understanding of bebop technique. Ab7/Ebm6 is an embellishment as is Eo7.

    Your initial answer was " because there is no vertical connection ... New Orleans Tuba lines ... ".

    In my previous message, I did not try to answer whether writing Ab7 was unhelpful, or not.
    I wrote it because I think there is vertical connection, including tuba lines, although I do not know if Bill Evans was thinking about them.
    yeah, by then they were just jazz bass lines. Ray brown was playing them. Later Jamerson (listen to Signed Sealed Delivered.) and so on. And then Jaco. Or in the blues. Andy Jaffe calls them ‘blues endings’ - play them as the outro for a shuffle blues and you’ll hear it.

    Part of the furniture. There’s a lot of shit people play without realising where it came from.

    Anyway, just go and check out the music and form your own conclusions. I just observed that players from the pre- college era (you know back when jazz had actual popular culture currency haha) tend to treat the different routes as if they are interchangeable.

    if you want to make up some theory about that, be my guest. I prefer to just go with the simple explanation (it’s only a passing chord and no one cares what you do on those.)

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I mean staying on Bb tonic chord, rather than expressing the Cm7 F7 or Eb7 chords. Check out Lester Young etc.
    As long as both the chords and notes are diatonic to key/scsle, it is impossible to differentiate. Chords will be expressed, intentionally, or not.

    in the sense that chords set up dissonance and resolution. You make a vertical resolution at the time of your choosing instead of faithfully expressing the written changes, which is what a lot of people think they have to do
    I am not fan of "it's in the flow". As well as I am not of "playing into resolution". I have some philosophical reasons I will not discuss.
    Anyway, as far as I am concerned, if it sounds good, it is diatonic to something being played at that moment, or to something being implied, or it is pure "sound on sound".

    because I think it would have been clearer to the average student if he’d just had Eb7 for the whole bar. Obviously we’ll never know what he was thinking, but it’s more likely to be this from my understanding of bebop technique. Ab7/Ebm6 is an embellishment as is Eo7.
    I can agree, but still. Why someone wrote Ab7 and not any of other options?
    Maybe it was case of "write whichever standard progression, they are interchangeable", but maybe, for some reason, he/she considered that writing Ab7 was the best way to do it. What you established was Edim7 line, he/she maybe understood as something else?
    If former, it is a proof that "it is nterchangeable" approach does not really work.

    Part of the furniture. There’s a lot of shit people play without realising where it came from.
    Are we such people? Or, are we dancer?

    I just observed that players from the pre- college era (you know back when jazz had actual popular culture currency haha) tend to treat the different routes as if they are interchangeable.
    Some are, some are not. In the heat of the moment anything can pass, but eventually it makes the result (music) worthless. Which, btw, is one of a.m. reasons I will not discuss.

    I prefer to just go with the simple explanation (it’s only a passing chord and no one cares what you do on those.)
    That is not explanation. That is description, "what" and "who".
    We want "why" and "how".

    What about "when"?

  17. #41

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    I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this but obviously I'm weak.

    I've never seen so much real nonsense talked about music till I got involved with jazz stuff. So -

    The rhythm changes progression is just a simple folk or blues thing. It's practically a nursery rhyme:

    C - G7 - C - G7
    C - F - C - G7

    Then you extend it a bit:

    C/Am - Dm/G7 - C/Am - Dm/G7
    C/C7 - F/Fm - Em/Am - Dm/G7

    Then you sub-dom it for fun:

    C/A7 - D7/G7 - C/A7 - D7/G7
    C/C7 - F/Fm - Em/A7 - Dm/G7

    Or you can smooth it out with dim chords. It can be as complicated or simple as you like:

    C/C#o - Dm/D#o - Em/Ebo - Dm/G7

    All the many versions are just variations on this. It's a pick 'n mix thing. Help yourself, have fun!

    (You can sub that Fm with Ab7 if you like but it's probably unnecessary)

    Then do the verse three times and stick a bridge in the middle:

    E7 ------ A7 -------- D7 ------- G7

    Wow, a simple backcycle back to C...

    and you've got an AABA 32-bar standard which, naturally, you have to put into Bb. The horns get to play it in C but the rest of us have to use trickier keys.

    And play it really, really fast, of course.

    That's all. The rest is just complicating what has already been complicated.

    So just take your rhythm changes chords and play

    C - G7 - C - G7
    C - F - C - G7

    Or even

    C/Eb7 - D7/Db7 - C/Eb7 - D7/Db7
    C/F#7 - F/Ab7 - E7/Eb7 - D7/Db7

    and nobody'll know the difference :-)
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-24-2020 at 06:44 AM.

  18. #42

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    And just to prove I'm completely uncontrollable, here's one in Bb.

    For the subbed version I constructed the most extreme thing I could think of. Nothing was manipulated, it's take 1.

    Of course, no one in their right mind would play it like this but it goes to show.

    | BbM7 Bo | Cm11 B7b5 | Dm7 F#7#9/Db | Cm7 B7+ |
    | Gm9/D Db13 | EbM7 Dbo | Dm7 G7alt | F#7alt F7alt |

    | BbM7 Bo | Cm11 B7b5 | Dm7 F#7#9/Db | Cm7 B7+ |
    | Gm9/D Db13 | EbM7 Dbo | Dm7 Ab13 | Bb6 |

    | F#m7b5 | Ebo | Dm7 | E7#9 |
    | A13 | E7#9 | Ebo | Ab13 |

    | BbM7 Bo | Cm11 B7b5 | Dm7 F#7#9/Db | Cm7 B7+ |
    | Gm9/D Db13 | EbM7 Dbo | Dm7 Ab13 | Bb6 |

  19. #43

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    I forgot, I could have put AM7 instead of F7 but it's too late now :-)

    Of course, I also know it's not really the chords that are the problem, it's the solo. A fast bebop solo is no easy thing.
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-24-2020 at 10:51 AM.

  20. #44

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    Nice posts ragman, points well made.

    You neglected to delay resolution to Bb in
    bar 16 and 32. So much unused opportunity.......

  21. #45

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    Good old Bemsha Swing by Monk

    | Bb G7 | Gb7 B7 | Bb Db7 | C7 B7 |

  22. #46

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    Anyway he was trying to explain to me the importance of the diminished chord - how he thought of the diminished chord as the root chord. That all chords can come from the diminished. As I said, I couldn't grasp it then, but the way the concept lit him up it seemed to be a "key to all mysteries" type of idea.


    Well, we're still working on the spirit of the OP.

    I am enjoying all the ideas though.

  23. #47

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    Oh, Wikipedia: "...dominant function, which means that it creates an instability that requires the tonic for resolution. Dominant triads, seventh chords, and ninth chords typically have dominant function."
    I would add, and so do diminished chords (which function as rootles dominants)

  24. #48

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    Diminished chords do not in fact always function as rootless dominants

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Diminished chords do not in fact always function as rootless dominants
    So, if Sam b is still with us.....I mean, if he hasn't shot himself by now...he was given a "Rosebud" moment by Mr. Basman before he, unfortunately, had to leave us.

    Now, this is probably in that realm...so go ahead.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Diminished chords do not in fact always function as rootless dominants
    Indeed, and I'd go so far as to say they weren't dominant chords at all. A 7b9 might look like diminished chord but it's not. It's like saying a CM9 is an Em7 chord. It's not.