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  1. #1

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    Hi everyone,

    New to jazz guitar and was on Mickey Baker lesson 11.

    When he lists the G13#5b9 does he mean G7#5b9 ?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    {Pulling out my Mickey Baker book...}. And dusting off my music theory...

    Remember, Baker says in Lesson 1 (the asterisked footnote: "Some chords have two names, but this will be explained later."). The basic notes of both chords are G-B-D#-F-Ab, but the 13 adds the E. Here's a feeble attempt to diagram the two on the fretboard:

    G13#5b9 = 3-2-3-1-4-0 (G-B-F-Ab-D#-E)
    G7#5b9 = 3-2-3-0-4-4 (G-B-F-G-D#-Ab)

    My sense is that the chord is named based on the order of the notes played. In general, chords are "stacked" using thirds. I think interval spacing is what determines the name of the chord.

    Wiser heads here I'm sure will correct me.

  4. #3
    Thanks for reposting that. But now on lesson 13 the third melody line, he has a G13b5 but with the fingering for a db7#9?

    Ill heed to the mantra dont worry about understanding it, it will come later, lol.

    Maybe its the practical use of progressions upfront that sound nice and give a sense of progress.


    Thanks
    Last edited by d115; 04-12-2020 at 02:14 PM.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by d115
    Thanks for reposting that. But now on lesson 13 the third melody line, he has a G13b5 but with the fingering for a db7#9? Also chord reference, a circled number 12, for both fmaj6 and fmin7, with different fingerings.
    I've read not to worry if i dont understand things, just accept it and move on. Its just confusing because this is the first instructional book i have bought that i really enjoy. Maybe its the practical use of progressions upfront that sound nice and give a sense of progress.
    OK..the G13b5 / Db7#9 is correct ..the chord name depends on context/function of the chord in the progression...both could be acting as a V7 (V7 alt / bValt) going to a IMA (C MA7/9 etc)

    F B E Db are the notes for both chords

    G13b5 / b7 3 13 b5

    Db7#9 / 3 b7 #9 R

    Baker..or the editor made mistakes .. I dont have the book now..so I cant review the FMA6 / Fmi7 thing..

    and Yes..dont get stuck on something that makes no sense right now..as you learn/play more things will become clear

    continue with the book through lesson 52..If you do what Baker suggests..write out the single line lessons in all keys...(a major help in sight reading !)
    and when you complete all 52 lessons (one a week)...Start over from lesson one again...

    so in essence this is a two year course..now you should also study additional materials (scales/progressions/tunes) and some diatonic harmony / theory along with Baker stuff
    also..if you can record each lesson..and use the chords/progressions as a backing track to use over the solo lines ..this will help ALOT..

  6. #5

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    Wolf said it a lot better than I could/did. I studied with a guitar teacher last year, who had himself studied under Pat Martino (now, if you want to dissect music nine ways to Sunday, there's the guy!). At one time, we were doing some chord practices and I remember stopping and asking him why, during this exercise the chord was named as it was, when in a song I played it was listed as a completely different chord. "It's all in the context," was his reply. In other words, the chord made more "sense" named as it was, because its harmonics aligned with the key of the song. In another context, it would be named as it was during our practice. Same notes, different chord names.

    I've kind of let go of chord names now, focusing more on the piece of music in its entirety.

  7. #6

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    Mickey Baker is not very good at naming for context. He often has Am7/Am6/G - that Am6 should be D9 as it is functioning as a dominant - ii/V/I.

    Similarly Db7#9 has four of the same notes as G13b5 - both could go to CMaj7, in which case the G13b5 is acting as a dominant from the root, while the Db7#9 is acting as a tritone sub.

    I've maybe confused things, but, yes, context is everything.

    If you haven't come across tritones before, there is an easy way and a hard way to explain. I'll try the easy way: Any V7 chord can be substituted by another V7 three tones (tritone) away. Three tones above G is C# or Db (same note). So imagine a ii/V/I in C: Dm7/G7/C. The tritone sub would be Dm7/Db7/C, which gives a chromatically descending bass.

    Now the above holds true when you add extensions or flatten the fifth, etc. So, Dm7/G13b5/C could be Dm7/Db7#9/Cmaj7.

    But most jazz musicians just mentally see ii/V/I and put in any extensions or tritones they want, the names don't matter but the function does.

  8. #7

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    D115 is referring to the 3rd music stave where chord 21 is stated as G13#5b9 in contrast to the original definition on Lesson 1 as G7#5b9
    And I believe that is pedant level 3 successfully completed thank you.

  9. #8
    Thank you, Rob, Wolflen & Just Fred. That does clear things up a bit for me.
    Last edited by d115; 04-13-2020 at 03:59 PM.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by d115
    Hi everyone,

    New to jazz guitar and was on Mickey Baker lesson 11.

    When he lists the G13#5b9 does he mean G7#5b9 ?
    Yes, he does. As John Tom already succinctly pointed out it's labeled as Form #21 and Form #21 is a G7#5b9. It's one of the many typos in the book. I just looked at my copy and I had the correction penciled in.

    Quote Originally Posted by d115
    But now on lesson 13 the third melody line, he has a G13b5 but with the fingering for a db7#9?
    Rob M., Wolfen, and others already covered this. But I understand your confusion because it's not Form 9 as illustrated in Lesson 1. I didn't know any theory at all when I went thru this book and these errors drove me nuts.

    Also chord reference, a circled number 12, for both fmaj6 and fmin7, with different fingerings.
    They are both the same chord shape and fingering played in different positions. If you consider the root to be the "F" on the high "E" string 1st fret it's an F6 (the 6th is the open 4th string). Move it up 3 frets and it's an Fm7 with the root now on the "F" on the 4th string 3rd fret. Unfortunately, Baker doesn't explain this until lesson 19.

    I have most of the typos and errors that I found marked in my copy so feel free to ask about any up coming errors in whatever chapter you're working on. This book is full of them.

  11. #10

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    With respect, the book is not full of errors. There are some, for sure, but not enough to say the book is not worth studying. You see the mind of a particular kind of jazz musician: the name of the chord is less important than its function. That in itself is a lesson.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    With respect, the book is not full of errors. There are some, for sure, but not enough to say the book is not worth studying. You see the mind of a particular kind of jazz musician: the name of the chord is less important than its function. That in itself is a lesson.
    Rob, not a week passes where I don't see some YT lesson and think, "That was covered in the Mickey Baker book." So, I'm not at all trying to dismiss the book by pointing out that it has errors. I always recommend this book to anyone who's wondering where to start learning Jazz guitar. So, in no way am I saying there are so many errors that the book is worthless. There's an incredible amount of good, useful material packed into that little book.

    However, I do think it was poorly edited and doesn't appear to have been proof read. That's not Mickey Baker's fault. That's the publisher's fault.

  13. #12
    I've bought many books throughout the years, only to toss them to the side because they're either boring or above my head. This book is different. I see myself making progress, which keeps my attention. When I see something that seems wrong, it might simply be that I'm not interpreting it correctly, or, it could just be wrong. That's what I find frustrating.
    I'm not putting this book down. If I have questions, I'll post them.
    Thank you for all your responses.

    Dave

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by d115
    I've bought many books throughout the years, only to toss them to the side because they're either boring or above my head. This book is different. I see myself making progress, which keeps my attention. When I see something that seems wrong, it might simply be that I'm not interpreting it correctly, or, it could just be wrong. That's what I find frustrating.
    I'm not putting this book down. If I have questions, I'll post them.
    Thank you for all your responses.

    Dave
    That's the big problem when there's a mistake in a book. My first reaction was always to assume that I was doing something wrong or failing to understand something.

    Like I said, I've marked up my copy with corrections to mistakes I have found. So ask away. This is the one book I always end up going back to. Maybe one day I'll finish it. I'm almost there.

  15. #14
    Thank you. Your offer is much appreciated!