The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I was just curious to know how many standards the greats of the 50s/60s/70s knew inside out and played regularly? Are we talking 50, 100, 500+ songs? I understand that many standards share similar structures so I imagine if you know one rhythm changes based tune you will understand how to play others of a similar structure. However how many tunes would Davis, Burrell or Dizzy have in their bags as signature songs they always played?

    Thanks!

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  3. #2

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    I don't know about those specific guys. But, the NYC wedding musicians of my youth seemed to be able to play any song in any key without changing the bored expression on their faces. Never saw them turn down a request and never heard a bad chord. I'd guess that those gigs required knowing (and I mean KNOWING) hundreds of tunes.

    Back then, you might get a wedding guest wanting to sing My One and Only Love in a random key. Those tunes were the pop tunes of an era and became jazz standards too. And, everybody listened to the same radio stations and the same bands/tunes. Nowadays, what's the equivalent? My guess is that today's wedding guest picks a pop tune that may not have any relationship to jazz.

    The standards are called in jazz casuals and probably nowhere else. I'm willing to be enlightened if I'm wrong about that. Then, they're usually played in the common keys. Most tunes are, in my experience, played in the same key as usual, with a few tunes being played in two different keys, like Green Dolphin Street, for example. It's a rare situation in which you have to play a standard, without a chart, in an unusual key. Even so, I still think of it as a core skill, because it means you have a well trained ear.

    OTOH, some current players whose names you know, can't do it. I've watched, up close, two well known players struggle to play Stella in F (it's usually played in Bb). One got it in two choruses, the other took a little longer.

    The last few jazz casuals I played, including with some well known local players, had charts. I was surprised that some older experienced players opened the book for every tune, including the simplest stuff. I'll guess that they didn't really need most of the charts, but just put them there in case of a brain-glitch or to remind themselves of the standard changes so that they didn't diverge from each other. At first, I thought that the guy I was sharing a stand with did it for my sake because he didn't know me, but the bassist did it too.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-23-2020 at 04:50 PM.

  4. #3

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    top-flight jazzers used to know lots of tunes, the new crop focuses on their own music and a double handful of standards, it seems, which is fine if you can get enough gigs playing original material. I found it interesting that the top singers generally program only about 20 tunes in a concert, and ten of those will almost never change over the years. Sinatra and Bennett each did their top 20 for years and years, Buble does a similar thing. It may have to do with the costs of arrangements, or it may have to do with comfort levels. For those of us trying to make a living playing standards and jazz, it is necessary to know lots of tunes, in most any key, at least fundamentally.

  5. #4

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    Once you get to the level of Davis or Dizzy, you get to call the tunes and remember exactly as many as you want to. Here's jazz writer Mark Stryker on Lee Konitz:

    "I’ve always had tremendous respect for Lee....There’s a purity about Lee that’s so admirable. This idea of: I’m going to play a handful of tunes but go deep and challenge myself to find new ways of expressing the eternal truth of these songs. I joked recently on Facebook that I have 15 or 20 Lee Konitz records and he plays a cumulative total of maybe a dozen tunes. An exaggeration, of course, but that’s part of his essence."

    On the other hand, pianists like Jimmy Rowles and Red Garland were famous for knowing not only all the usual 2-300 standards that get called regularly, but bunches of 1920s-30s pop tunes that didn't become standards (things like "I Wish I Were Twins", which Rowles got Zoot Sims to put on a record). Ed Bickert was also legendary for having a large repertoire that included lots of forgotten pop tunes.

    It's an interesting question. I imagine the answer is all over the map when it comes to name jazz musicians. Pianists often seem to be the ones singled out as walking tune encyclopedias.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    I was just curious to know how many standards the greats of the 50s/60s/70s knew inside out and played regularly? Are we talking 50, 100, 500+ songs? I understand that many standards share similar structures so I imagine if you know one rhythm changes based tune you will understand how to play others of a similar structure. However how many tunes would Davis, Burrell or Dizzy have in their bags as signature songs they always played?

    Thanks!
    Certainly much more than 100. Closer to 500.

  7. #6

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    There's a story I read about Jimmy Garrison turning down a standards gig because he didn't remember any tunes after playing with Trane for so long, although you gotta take those stories with a grain of salt.

    I think it is correct that pianists like Jimmy Rowles, Hank Jones, Marian McPartland, etc, know jillions of tunes. We've discussed this a lot but knowing a lot of tunes is definitely a badge of honor in certain sorts of jazz communities, but the reality is that very few people know all the tunes. The person I know that probably knows the most tunes (and can play them in any key) is a very good SF local pianist, but not, like, a super monster player.

    I really liked Ethan Iverson's take on this subject:

    Deepening Your Relationship to Musical Theatre | DO THE M@TH

    and also:

    Eight American Popular Songs + A Tribute to Alec Wilder (By Jacob Zimmerman) | DO THE M@TH

    The important bit is that most good musicians can hear a chorus or two of one of these tunes and know the changes. This used to seem magical to me when I was a younger jazz musician, but today I could hear any of these tunes once through and play all the changes and probably hear most of the substitutions people would use. It's about pattern matching across a fairly narrow set of choices, as opposed to having really awesome ears.

    Great example: descending chord sequence from the #4. This happens in night and day, christmas time is here, just one of those things, time after time, and a fair amount of people play it in the second ending of "it's you or no one". It's a fairly recognizable sequence different enough from anything harmonic that you should be able to hear. Most standard tunes start on the I, the ii, or some kind of IV chord. Most tunes, when they go to minor, either go to relative minor or iii minor, so learn to hear the difference between those two. Learn to hear the Frank Loesser device of going to the major III chord.

    Sorry if I've veered a bit off topic here, but in the past 10 years my ability to learn tunes on the fly has really taken a quantum leap and it's interesting to reflect about why that is.

    Not all tunes fall into this category, certainly tunes by jazz composers are harder to hear and don't follow these kinds of rules, but most standard tunes do. For me, Ellington and Horace Silver are really the bridge between more advanced jazz harmony and basic standard progressions. A lot of Ellington tunes are less fancy, harmonically, than they sound, because Duke was a genius. A lot of Horace Silver tunes are more complex, harmonically, than they sound, because Horace was a genius.

  8. #7

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    Warren Nunes claimed that if he heard a tune on a barroom jukebox just once, he'd know the tune for the rest of his life.

    I heard him play a great many tunes, never using a chart.

    But, just once, I heard him get a harmony wrong, maybe. It was The Song is You, where he used the chords from the last A section in the first two A sections. Most sources have them as slightly different. Of course, Warren might have been right for the sources he used or the players he played that tune with.

  9. #8

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    Interesting topic. These days most music colleges have lists, about 500 tunes for bachelor, 1500 for master in performance. I can imagine players back in the day, playing these standards every day, must have known thousands of tunes. Probably the lesser known players knew more, as they couldn't focus on their own material? I can recall many interviews where older musicians would advise to learn the music, and how everything was about the tunes. I think it is imperative to learn as many as one can, keep learning, and really work on the ability to be able to support a tune in any key once you learn a melody.

  10. #9

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    If you were a professional musician you would either
    1) learn a lot of songs
    2) become a really good reader
    or
    3) both

    these days it’s a bit different. Music has changed

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Interesting topic. These days most music colleges have lists, about 500 tunes for bachelor, 1500 for master in performance
    this one sentence somehow sums up everything that’s problematic about modern jazz education. that is the replacement of something that was very organic with something very top down and fossilised.

    and they are doing it with the best of intentions.

    It’s great to learn a lot of tunes. It’s better develop an emotional connection to them. People who remember a lot of tunes generally really like them....

    here’s the thing. If a student comes in with their version of a current pop song then great. In general is not that people don’t know the jazz standards repertoire, it’s that they don’t know any songs at all. Guitar has become a sport.

    You know I was listening to Paul Gilbert podcast and the guy is just playing songs and singing and playing the changes, just being a musician. And he’s a rock player. Try getting a YouTube shredder doing that.

  12. #11

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    But in what better way could you communicate the music nowdays? Jazz isn't pop music as i was then, so when someone wants to approach it, that sounds like good advice to me: listen to, play and learn 1000 tunes. Which means listen to the players, the albums, etc, hopefully get into the music. And also, be somehow prepared for the bandstand. I've never met anyone that knew that many tunes and wasn't a good player. You almost don't have to be good on guitar if you know the music that good!

    Edit: I remember something Peter Bernstein said on a seminar. He said he knows every tune, all of them, and can play everything in every key. I believe him! Possibly that has a lot to do with how melodic and essential his playing sounds! It was some of the best advice given to me ever..!

  13. #12
    The Lenny Tristano people have a very small repertoire. They preferred to go very deeply into it but with less tunes.
    I don’t necessarily agree with that model but when I was learning it served it’s purpose.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #13

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    I once asked Coryell in a lesson "which tunes should I know?" his reply "All of them"...

  15. #14

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    I haven't made much progress but my goal is to eventually have all these tunes comfortable in 12 keys + rhythm changes + blues + giants steps + so what + confirmation and maybe some modern tunes

    Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners

    And then just add standards in their predictable keys on top of that.

    The efforts I've made so far seem to be paying off and yeah, I can definitely recognize basic patterns in tunes that used to be really hard for me.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s great to learn a lot of tunes. It’s better develop an emotional connection to them. People who remember a lot of tunes generally really like them....
    ....
    You know I was listening to Paul Gilbert podcast and the guy is just playing songs and singing and playing the changes, just being a musician. And he’s a rock player. Try getting a YouTube shredder doing that.
    Maybe there's two kinds of jazz players...those who would put on a Sinatra or Ella record for the sheer joy of hearing the songs, and those who would put on the vocal record only as a measure of last resort. From around 1960 to the present, there have been 3 or 4 generations of musicians growing up who in some (many?) cases relate to standards at an almost purely instrumental level. They often have a story about an old-timer admonishing them for not knowing the words to the songs they are playing, and they might even claim that the old-timer opened their eyes a little. Or they may be like Scott Henderson on his podcast, saying that they find standards corny and uninteresting. Maybe at some point, the standards players will be a scene unto itself, like bluegrass or ska-revivalism, and there will be very little overlap with the players who think jazz begins with Shorter and Coltrane.

  17. #16

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    If you're just out there playing with whoever you can, pickup gigs, jams, it pays to know a lot of tunes...and learning a lot of tunes makes it easier to learn more tunes...

    If you have a steady group or you're leading, you can afford to pare down that rep...focus, maybe not let tunes go completely, but have a set rep you can go deep on.

    So it kind of depends on where you're at, and what your plans are.

    Me, I keep learning tunes. Honestly I've probably forgotten more tunes than I know, but I keep pushing. I should have a reflective sit down and see what tunes I really know and which I need to brush up on. I bet it will be a humbling experience.

  18. #17

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    Some great posts. I must admit, whenever I hear a song I want to learn, the last thing I want to know is the key in which it is played. I focus on relative chord progression : I, IV, VIIm7b5, III7 etc. That way I can take in the shape of the melody and the structure of the song, then when I have to play, it the chords come more naturally. If I have to transpose up a third because the singer sings a particularly high register, I can then more readily cope.

    In terms of numbers of songs I must know several hundred by heart by now - including a fairly full Beatles repertoire. I love learning new songs and will never stop learning

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by 44lombard
    Maybe there's two kinds of jazz players...those who would put on a Sinatra or Ella record for the sheer joy of hearing the songs, and those who would put on the vocal record only as a measure of last resort. From around 1960 to the present, there have been 3 or 4 generations of musicians growing up who in some (many?) cases relate to standards at an almost purely instrumental level. They often have a story about an old-timer admonishing them for not knowing the words to the songs they are playing, and they might even claim that the old-timer opened their eyes a little. Or they may be like Scott Henderson on his podcast, saying that they find standards corny and uninteresting. Maybe at some point, the standards players will be a scene unto itself, like bluegrass or ska-revivalism, and there will be very little overlap with the players who think jazz begins with Shorter and Coltrane
    that’s true, but I don’t really care about that in the end.

    everyone who’s any good is into *something* and they’ve all been through the same process. Use your lugholes, learn music, and play it with other human beings in front of human beings.

    Style and genre aren’t that important in the end; the process is. You learn what you feel drawn to. There’s plenty of straightahead guys who would think Jelly Roll Morton and Bix Beiderbecke are corny. what’s important is that you go deep into what you want to. I don’t want to hear Scott play the GASB... (well actually I do but that’s another story)

    What scott can do is play you the frickin Wayne songbook. And I’m sure he knows loads of blues and rock tunes as well... he played the popular songs of the era... as Miles had (and actually carried on doing!)

    (I love it all, but I don’t have the patience to pull something out of modern pop the way Adam Neely does... so I’m a classical musician I guess)

    its not what songs you learn it’s more like just learn some repertoire and gig it.

    But as I say the world as changed. Scott is in his 60s.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    But in what better way could you communicate the music nowdays? Jazz isn't pop music as i was then, so when someone wants to approach it, that sounds like good advice to me: listen to, play and learn 1000 tunes. Which means listen to the players, the albums, etc, hopefully get into the music. And also, be somehow prepared for the bandstand. I've never met anyone that knew that many tunes and wasn't a good player. You almost don't have to be good on guitar if you know the music that good!

    Edit: I remember something Peter Bernstein said on a seminar. He said he knows every tune, all of them, and can play everything in every key. I believe him! Possibly that has a lot to do with how melodic and essential his playing sounds! It was some of the best advice given to me ever..!
    Yes the song is really important to Peter. Something I really dig.

    friend of mine was in NYC the day Cedar Walton died. Peter played a solo set entirely of Cedar tunes.

    how many songs do you know of your favourite musician? That’s how deep those guys go in NYC. You don’t get there by practicing 2 5 1s and modes, not that that stuff isnt important. But it’s not the point.

    here’s an idea for practice. Learn a new song. everyday. Something you love. By ear. Learn the melody. Try different chords. Try to work out an arrangement. Take it to different keys. Practice your shit over it... modes, voicings, language whatever floats your jazz boat. Rinse and repeat for a couple of decades.

    should do that really!

  21. #20

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    The better players that I know all seem to share the following.

    They are highly knowledgable about jazz history. Common for one person to mention an old, but significant, recording and multiple people in the band will chime in with all kinds of detail about the music, the personnel and the history of the recording.

    The players know the usual standards (or more). For example, if someone calls Donna Lee, everybody, including the bassist, will play the head.

    These are, mostly, older players. They share a foundation.

    Now, that said, few of them are particularly interested in playing those tunes, and, especially not in a jam session way. They are much more interested in more modern jazz styles, world music, original tunes, original arrangements and so on.

    That's what I see in my small corner of the musical world.

    Other experiences?

  22. #21

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    All good discussion that underpins why I don't gig any more. I can't sight read worth a hoot, I need to go over the chart and work it out at home. My ear seems to be made of tin most of the time. And I don't seem to be able to remember more than a handful of standards. I'd just embarrass the **** out of myself on a gig unless there's at least one rehearsal and charts, which is what made it possible for me to play with my old band and sound halfway decent. All things considered, best if I stay home and just amuse the cat (who likes to rub up against the cab when I'm playing).

  23. #22

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    one of the giants when it came to knowing standards?...none other than tiny tim!...as a young man he went to libraries and scoured their music collections..took pics of the scores..and went home and learned them!!


    artie butler, conductor and arranger (no slouch himself!) had this to say about tiny

    "Tiny also had a vast knowledge of songs from the glory days of burlesque and vaudeville. He was a walking encyclopedia when it came to music. He knew the verse to almost every old standard. He knew who wrote it, sang it, arranged it, published it, what year it was released and what record label it was on."


    cheers

  24. #23

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    A current player who knows all the tunes is Howard Alden. He has a reputation for knowing the correct chords for any song. Andy Brown, who occasionally plays with him, seems to be following along. If either comes up with a song the other doesn't know, he goes through it once, and they can gig it. I'm far from up to that standard, and will never come close. It takes decades of dedicated practice and an innate talent and ear.

  25. #24

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    Tbh I think most working jazz guitarists in NYC have a knowledge of jazz standards far in advance of elsewhere. The depth of knowledge of the specialists in that area is truly daunting.

    part of it is what the 80/20 drummer said in his video on subtle signs of a high level drummer ... learning music extremely quickly. Moreno talks about this as well. You learn the process as much as the tunes.... your aural memory, harmonic hearing and ability to translate onto the fretboard becomes really good. Your ability to reharm, arrange and your ear for detail.

  26. #25

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    Just because one loves jazz and playing it on guitar, doesn't mean one will ever attain a professional level. I'm living proof of that. It takes inborn talent. Some people have a disproportionate share of it, and some of us have very little. Just like there are 1352 guitar pickers in Nashville better than you, there are more than that in New York City. If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere, at least according to the song, so that's where the talented and the wannabes go. It was the same in the '50s, '60s, and '70s, just as it was for decades before.