The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub
    As a non-gigger I'm curious: does anyone care to hear these standards besides older folks? Is there much of a demand for such tunes?
    It seems like there's a demand on the bandstand side of the equation for tunes that you can play with pickup bands on a casual/background music gig, tunes that "everybody knows." Not only does "everybody know" these songs, but many of them (uptempo or ballad) can be played as pleasant background music, so they meet that requirement too.

    I imagine the farther you move away from "background music" / "pickup band" situations, towards gigs with real bands who are the main attraction, the less likely you would want to play warhorses from the Real Book. Or at least play them in "faked" arrangements, off the cuff.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by 44lombard
    It seems like there's a demand on the bandstand side of the equation for tunes that you can play with pickup bands on a casual/background music gig, tunes that "everybody knows." Not only does "everybody know" these songs, but many of them (uptempo or ballad) can be played as pleasant background music, so they meet that requirement too.

    I imagine the farther you move away from "background music" / "pickup band" situations, towards gigs with real bands who are the main attraction, the less likely you would want to play warhorses from the Real Book. Or at least play them in "faked" arrangements, off the cuff.
    ...or perform one's own compositions; about half the tunes my jazz trio performs are originals.

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by 44lombard
    It seems like there's a demand on the bandstand side of the equation for tunes that you can play with pickup bands on a casual/background music gig, tunes that "everybody knows." Not only does "everybody know" these songs, but many of them (uptempo or ballad) can be played as pleasant background music, so they meet that requirement too.

    I imagine the farther you move away from "background music" / "pickup band" situations, towards gigs with real bands who are the main attraction, the less likely you would want to play warhorses from the Real Book. Or at least play them in "faked" arrangements, off the cuff.
    I rarely hear old fashioned standards gigs any more. That is, where some players get together and call tunes randomly, no charts and they just play. I do hear some gigs which have a similar format -- some originals, a few well known tunes, and a few more obscure tunes. Some, or all, of the gig being arranged, but with head-solos-head format.

    The old fashioned way can sound good, if the players are good enough but I usually hear that sort of thing at a place where the venue but not the band has a following. And, it tends to appeal to an older crowd.

    In my visit to NYC last week, the shows I saw at Smalls were great, but followed the basic format described above. There were many younger people (younger than the musicians, anyway). I couldn't tell if they were local jazz fans or tourists, or what.

    Then, I heard Robert Glasper at the Blue Note. His set defied virtually all of those conventions -- despite the fact that he played a version of Stella and quoted Body and Soul and a few other standards. Again, I couldn't tell how he attracted that audience. I did notice that at my table of 12, everybody, including us, was visiting NYC. The audience skewed older, but the Blue Note is much more expensive.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Far be it for me, a mere semi-hollowist, to disagree with Christian77 (I assume the 77 is his level of mastery of all taste in the universe), but there is nothing better in said universe (or some universe, anyway) than Pat Martino's version of DoW&R



    John
    Thanks of that. Not a big fan...sometimes wonder why not. That did swing.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Far be it for me, a mere semi-hollowist, to disagree with Christian77 (I assume the 77 is his level of mastery of all taste in the universe)
    Excellent, you are learning!

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Say what you want about the early jazzers, but the tunes are great. I love most of them, and rather play that than freaking Jeanine or Beatrice or what have you. You can tell I was at a 'serious' jazz jam session recently.
    There's some dogmeat early tunes. But yes they tend to have catchy melodies. i might start a thread, modern guys playing old tunes. Always fun to hear. Not tonight though... The thing I find, and I say this as someone who is plunging into the post-bop rep a bit more seriously atm, is that people often play more modern tunes, I think, because they like the record, not the tune. But I think Wayne Shorter is genuinely a really good composer of melodies. I reckon he comes up with melody first. A lot of other modern jazz tunes sound like they came up with a chord progression and then added a melody as an after thought.

  8. #32

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    I suspect you are also going to disagree here, but I think Kurt comes up with great melodies. It's just that they are sometimes pretty unconventional, often tinged with a whole tone meets pentatonic vibe. Certainly not pop songs. But I think he often goes melody first. Zhivago is a good example, extremely motivic, catchy melody.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I rarely hear old fashioned standards gigs any more. That is, where some players get together and call tunes randomly, no charts and they just play. I do hear some gigs which have a similar format -- some originals, a few well known tunes, and a few more obscure tunes. Some, or all, of the gig being arranged, but with head-solos-head format. The old fashioned way can sound good, if the players are good enough but I usually hear that sort of thing at a place where the venue but not the band has a following. And, it tends to appeal to an older crowd. In my visit to NYC last week, the shows I saw at Smalls were great, but followed the basic format described above. There were many younger people (younger than the musicians, anyway). I couldn't tell if they were local jazz fans or tourists, or what.Then, I heard Robert Glasper at the Blue Note. His set defied virtually all of those conventions -- despite the fact that he played a version of Stella and quoted Body and Soul and a few other standards. Again, I couldn't tell how he attracted that audience. I did notice that at my table of 12, everybody, including us, was visiting NYC. The audience skewed older, but the Blue Note is much more expensive.
    I think jazz in the big metropolis with intensive entertainemen and cultural life (like NY, Paris, London etc. or even the city I live in) - jazz became a part of the general landscape: it can be baclground music in the restaurant but also it can be some kind of siphisticated enetertainmen for young people.It is like new type of book stores with cafeteria - I see many young people in the book stores today - it is kind of fashionable trend today... I like it... whatever trash they actually read there...And jazz became a part of that activity... and I know quite a lot of young people who do not really understand jazz (I mean they can't follow music) but they regular visit popular local clubs and jam bars just for the sake of communication and atmosphere... Also today we live in the time of 'revival' of everything... every other day I hear: it's reavival of uke, revival of manouche, revival of Russian 7-string guitar, revival of lute, renaissance of renaissance etc. It is all partly true becasue there is really activity in these areas but it is a part of general process which I believe partly connected with Internet development - cultural interestes today are not presented with one-two general trends - of course there is still Hollywood, TV and pop music - but today (especially in the big cities) people can afford ignoring those major trends and still feel themselves in quite comfortable active and freindly cultural enviroment... in the past only artistic Boheme could afford it... not every on can search the net, find friends on FB and join the Lute Society of America or Association of Lindy-Hop Dance of Finlandia... Those 'revival movements' are quite small but it does not matter any more.What I am trying to say that there is no such scene for mainstream jazz as for pop music (and there is no such audience for Woody Allen as for Marvel trash) but still there is one... And by the way Woody is a good example... I meet people who enjoy his current films and think this is what he really is.. younger people know 'Mindnight in Paris', 'From Rome with Love' etc.People a bit older say: Today Woody is no good.. I remember days when he did good - when Scarlet Johansson was in his movies... not his greatest period - but much better than today.But for me he is 'Purple Rose of Cairo', 'Anny Hall', 'Hanna and her Sister', 'Manhattan'... where he was really creative. (not becasue I am old but becasue I watch not only modern movies.)The same thing may happen with jazz... As for standards - it may be a bit different in teh States where old tunes are a part of national culture and people may have some personal associations that are connected with particular generation... (like 'my mom used to sing it while cooking' etc.)...

  10. #34
    joelf Guest
    I live in Philly---a college town. To establish myself here I've had to make jam sessions with Temple and other students 1/3 my age. The good news: I've gotten 3 gigs in 2 years as a result. Why, I figure by age 107 I should be working 2-3 nights a week! Just hook up the aqualung and dialysis machine and get to the gig. Oh joy!Seriously, ladies and germs, what is quite disconcerting about these nice, baby-faced fledgling jazzers is their lack of knowledge of the American Song Book. I mean meat and potatoes tunes one must know to get through the average paying gig. They play the same 'hip' jazz standards: Straight Street, Solar, Minority, Herbie/Wayne tunes. The few standards they know are MAYBE There Will Never be Another You or Invitation. This is not true across the board, but it IS a disturbing trend. What are these guys gonna do on a gig w/a vocalist w/o charts? Scratch their asses and either sit down---or bring out the dreaded (by me) apps. Where are they ever gonna work if they don't know tunes? Door gigs playing those 'hip' tunes they were taught in school? Try feeding a family on that sad $. I have a student, a multi-reed player and a shrewd article. I love this young man b/c he soaks up knowledge like a sponge, and approaches music as both art and business. B/c he's playing all kinds of gigs, including rock, shows and swing gigs he came to a lesson one day and I had written titles of must-know swing and early jazz tunes---everything from That's a Plenty to Sleepy Time Down South to After You've Gone. Turned into 8 pages, both sides. At 22 in 10 years, b/c he composes and arranges and reads shows down this cat is gonna OWN this town. It is gratifying to me to have been able to help. There are other sincere young players I'd like to work with, on these tune gaps and other weaknesses, but one has to be careful approaching people b/c they already have teachers and you also don't want to come on strong---like YOU'RE the shnizzle. When I do get young musicians' ears I tell them my approach to learning standards: go on youtube, find Doris Day or Jo Stafford--NOT a jazz singer we may love---b/c those gals will sing the MELODY and the chart will be close to the composers' changes in most cases. I sing it to myself, sometimes for a week, internalize it. Then I write my own lead sheet. I have file cabinets full of these sheets. The songs, though, are in my head---and that's the point. So, yeah, learn Beatrice and Fee Fi Fo Fum or Voyage, but do not sleep on the songs that are the plasma of our musical contribution. Not if you want to be accomplished and not feel embarrassed---and especially if you want to WORK...

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    The only embarrassing tune not to know is Happy Birthday.
    I reckon I should probably take a bit of time and figure it out...

    But I used to know The Beatles "Birthday" and in my youth it was a big hit and got everybody up dancing, in fact there were nights when nobody had a birthday but our youthful rock band would call out the birthday song for (insert a name here) just to play it. And we would also call out special requests that were non-existent but since we knew the tune and it was on our set list people would think that we could play anything on demand...

    Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end...

  12. #36

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    What's really emabassing is what you need to tell the landlord when he comes hunting for the rent, because you thought knowing a bunch of 70 year old tunes would get you gigs...

  13. #37

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    Truthfully though, if all the things you are is boring...it ain't the song's fault.

  14. #38

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    Inagadadavida.

  15. #39

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    From a fairly evangelical standards'n'bop vibe, I've basically downgraded my expectations to - it is good if a musicians knows a repertoire of songs. The more songs the better. Obviously in jazz, it is important to have some songs in common, hence standards. Quite a lot of jazz guitar students don't know any songs at all.

  16. #40

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    When you go to a jazz jam these days in Amsterdam, Berlin, Barcelona or Milano and expect to "survive" on the bandstand then you better have a good understanding of jazz harmony, good ears and TIME .... the level of musicianship is rising steadily and sessions are increasingly becoming more of a showcase event than a friendly get-together of some nerds.... there are session leaders, prepared setlists and an un-experienced player will have major difficulties keeping up.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by geogio
    I reckon I should probably take a bit of time and figure it out...

    But I used to know The Beatles "Birthday" and in my youth it was a big hit and got everybody up dancing, in fact there were nights when nobody had a birthday but our youthful rock band would call out the birthday song for (insert a name here) just to play it. And we would also call out special requests that were non-existent but since we knew the tune and it was on our set list people would think that we could play anything on demand...

    Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end...
    It's no joke. I was on the gigs with some dudes who seem like pro players, but all of a sudden we asked to play HB, and they messed that up. Recovered quickly, of course, but its funny see them messing up chords or melody to THIS tune.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    From a fairly evangelical standards'n'bop vibe, I've basically downgraded my expectations to - it is good if a musicians knows a repertoire of songs. The more songs the better. Obviously in jazz, it is important to have some songs in common, hence standards. Quite a lot of jazz guitar students don't know any songs at all.
    Mimi Fox tells the story of going to meet Joe Pass at his hotel for a lesson. He was in a bathrobe, smoking a cigar. He had her play several things. Then he put the cigar out and said, "Thank f*cking God. Mimi, you won't believe the shmucks that come to see me and can't play their way through a 12-bar blues."

    She tells this story around the 6:30 mark of this video.

    Jazz is a way of playing. If you don't know some tunes other players can be assumed to know, what will you play when you get together?


  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Truthfully though, if all the things you are is boring...it ain't the song's fault.
    then the way you look tonight may help... maybe

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    then the way you look tonight may help... maybe
    I’ve never liked that tune much. But Jimmy Raney does some cool things with it.


  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I’ve never liked that tune much. But Jimmy Raney does some cool things with it.
    The whole album is remarkable. Something special for me.Though I was kidding a bit as mr.beaumont wrote 'if all the thing you are is boring... ' as if it is not a tiltle of a tune so I continued 'maybe the way you look tonight would help')))Byt the way I never liked ''All Teh Things You Are'' - I uderstand why it became a standard and why it can be interesting changes to solo over... butas original song... I always found this set of harmonic sequences a bit mechanical.And also... I never liked minor jazz tunes like Beautiful Love, Autumn Leaves etc. - formally ATTYA is not minor key but it has general sound minor key tunarounds.The Way You Look Tonight is a bit too simplistic I agree... very inert diatonic harmonic movement - such a traditional pop song of the period --- but it has its bit of a charm to me ... I like this 11th over minor Dominant... the trunaround itself is common but its location (how it is used) in the song is a bit unpredicatable and brings in special colour... I also like the bridge ... 'all in' the song sems made pretty well to me.

  22. #46

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    I like it when they have nice melodies.

  23. #47

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    All the Things You Are was from a movie musical. Quite a few years ago I happened to see the scene it was in, it was a crooner number for the male lead. Very, very, stiff, corny, and schmaltzy. It's a wonder it was adopted as a jazz standard.

    I first learned it probably 40 years ago, and boy did I get sick of it. I didn't play it for a long time, but I put it back in my repertoire about 5 years ago, in case some young kid called it at a jam session. Which happened. I don't go there much anymore.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ
    All the Things You Are was from a movie musical. Quite a few years ago I happened to see the scene it was in, it was a crooner number for the male lead. Very, very, stiff, corny, and schmaltzy. It's a wonder it was adopted as a jazz standard.
    Not really. Most of the original versions of jazz standards were 'legit' - i.e. stiff and corny...Jazz is the art of making stiff and corny things hip. It's basically the job description.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Not really. Most of the original versions of jazz standards were 'legit' - i.e. stiff and corny...Jazz is the art of making stiff and corny things hip. It's basically the job description.
    Agreed, that was especially true in the 40's and 50's, and Coltrane did that with another Hammerstein tune, My Favorite Things in the 60's. And I have to correct myself about the origins of that song- it was originally from a Broadway show, and the only one used when it was adapted to the movie. They both flopped, but the song certainly lived on. And on.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ
    Agreed, that was especially true in the 40's and 50's, and Coltrane did that with another Hammerstein tune, My Favorite Things in the 60's. And I have to correct myself about the origins of that song- it was originally from a Broadway show, and the only one used when it was adapted to the movie. They both flopped, but the song certainly lived on. And on.
    Uh, not so sure about 'they both flopped': "they" being the song and The Song of Music musical the song came from: The original Broadway production, starring Mary Martin and Theodore Bikel, opened in 1959[1] and won five Tony Awards, including Best Musical, out of nine nominations. The first London production opened at the Palace Theatre in 1961. The show has enjoyed numerous productions and revivals since then. It was adapted as a 1965 film musical starring Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer, which won five Academy Awards. The Sound of Music was the last musical written by Rodgers and Hammerstein; Oscar Hammerstein died of stomach cancer nine months after the Broadway premiere.