Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Thought I would post an interesting study from Johns Hopkins about how to learn and become better at what your trying to learn, on this Forum, Play the guitar and all aspects relating to. It's not that the info. is new, just the study. It might help teachers jump off that sinking boat. Unless just making $.... is the real goal. If that's the case, might as well just keep going...

    Want to learn a new skill? Faster? Change up your practice sessions -- ScienceDaily
    Last edited by Reg; 10-12-2019 at 11:10 AM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Reg, I clicked on the link and reached "page not found."
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    I think this is the same thing, from another site.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0128130955.htm
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Thanks Mark...

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Very interesting, thank you!

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Teachers do valuable work for little money.

    And they have been doing this sort of teaching for centuries.
    Last edited by Litterick; 10-12-2019 at 06:29 PM.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    Teachers do valuable work for little money.

    And they have been doing this sort of teaching for centuries.
    The "art" of teaching is presenting to the student new information in such a way that the student comes to believe it was always a part of his/her thinking.

    Think of a street sign that you read in a nano-second and then think of the hours it took for your first grade teacher to link those letters with an idea.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    I play guitar [badly] but I train and assess Firefighting from recruit to crew leader level. There we say that we "train not so we get it right, but so we never get it wrong". Obviously that is not achievable in practice, life will always throw you something unexpected! But the only way to to train for this is variation in practice. I have had students come for assessment who know precisely what evolutions they need to perform to pass the basic assessment, but if you ask them anything beyond that they have no idea. As trainers/instructors we need to broaden this, we need students who can think and react on the fly to things other than the drills they trained on.
    I would say it is the same in jazz guitar as it is in firefighting as it was in my military days. If you have the basics solidly under control then you know what you can vary to meet the unexpected and you know what to fall back on to carry you through. Unfortunately the basics of guitar still elude me - but they give me something to live for, get up every day in the hope of learning something new, go to bed every night having done at least that.
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
    God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things -- right now I am so far behind I will never die!

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by thelostboss View Post
    I play guitar [badly] but I train and assess Firefighting from recruit to crew leader level. There we say that we "train not so we get it right, but so we never get it wrong". Obviously that is not achievable in practice, life will always throw you something unexpected! But the only way to to train for this is variation in practice. I have had students come for assessment who know precisely what evolutions they need to perform to pass the basic assessment, but if you ask them anything beyond that they have no idea. As trainers/instructors we need to broaden this, we need students who can think and react on the fly to things other than the drills they trained on.
    I would say it is the same in jazz guitar as it is in firefighting as it was in my military days. If you have the basics solidly under control then you know what you can vary to meet the unexpected and you know what to fall back on to carry you through. Unfortunately the basics of guitar still elude me - but they give me something to live for, get up every day in the hope of learning something new, go to bed every night having done at least that.
    Maybe it is a mistake is to assume it is the same as military training, and this might contribute to a lack of progress (perceived or otherwise.)

    I think that very stereotyped, strict drill might be useful for some skills, perhaps very basic ones such as using the correct fingers for scales etc, but it appears from both the scientific and academic literature and anecdote/personal experience that it isn’t very helpful for adult musical activity.

    One thing you have to develop as a jazz player is flexibility. That’s where the varied practice described in the article is very powerful. Warne Marsh used to advise students never to practice a scale pattern again once it had been played correctly once.

    But that’s an interesting one. Not having taught anyone from a forces background, I think the problems and solutions would be very different from the usual student, who usually needs more stereotyped, prescribed practice haha.

    EDIT: actually on reflection I don’t think the last paragraph is especially true. A lot of players have good command of the basics but need to learn how to apply the material.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-13-2019 at 09:00 AM.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    The "art" of teaching is presenting to the student new information in such a way that the student comes to believe it was always a part of his/her thinking.

    Think of a street sign that you read in a nano-second and then think of the hours it took for your first grade teacher to link those letters with an idea.
    Great, why did I bother starting a masters in it?

    Oh wait, turns out it’s not that simple. As my grades attest haha.

    But I do like it the vein of your thinking. A lot of teaching is a bit like that, but the main thing for me is always to put myself out of a job, to produce self directed learners who don’t need me any more.

    Which is a terrible business model but good pedagogy.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I think that very stereotyped, strict drill might be useful for some skills, perhaps very basic ones such as using the correct fingers for scales etc, but it appears from both the scientific and academic literature and anecdote/personal experience that it isn’t very helpful for adult musical activity.

    One thing you have to develop as a jazz player is flexibility. That’s where the varied practice described in the article is very powerful. Warne Marsh used to advise students never to practice a scale pattern again once it had been played correctly once.
    That's where the dog lies buried imo. Jazz has these constant variations going and to get to learn to play with good groove... ugh. This is so contradictory. Groove gets great by focusing on one thing for a good while in practice session but jazz needs the variations. Those seem absolutely opposite goals for a while when learning. I remember being able to groove well with not too much effort (short licks and whatnot) but sound disgusting (rhythmically) when had to improvise any longer than 8 bars.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Warne Marsh used to advise students never to practice a scale pattern again once it had been played correctly once.

    Admitting that I don't have the full context of that advice from Mr. Marsh, taken at face value it seems to be exaggerated in order to make a point.

    And the point would be that practice routines primarily based on mindless repetition have very low utility for jazz improvisers.


    I think a more balanced and useful challenge to student improvisers would be something like the following:

    1. Take a nice, well conceived, and dare I say "hip sounding" (1) pattern, (2) phrase, (3) section of a solo, or (4) one chorus solo.
    2. Memorize it in half a dozen keys; C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, E - a guitar key!
    3. Introduce variations to it. Consider things like: rhythmic variation, harmonic substitution, melodic variations (approach notes, chromatics, octave displacement, dropped notes, one full chord lay out, etc.).
    4. Write out the variations at first - if need be.
    5. Learn to skillfully introduce variations "off the cuff".
    6. Play it many times in a row, using variations on each repetition - off the cuff.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Admitting that I don't have the full context of that advice from Mr. Marsh, taken at face value it seems to be exaggerated in order to make a point.And the point would be that practice routines primarily based on mindless repetition have very low utility for jazz improvisers.I think a more balanced and useful challenge to student improvisers would be something like the following:1. Take a nice, well conceived, and dare I say "hip sounding" (1) pattern, (2) phrase, (3) section of a solo, or (4) one chorus solo.2. Memorize it in half a dozen keys; C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, E - a guitar key!3. Introduce variations to it. Consider things like: rhythmic variation, harmonic substitution, melodic variations (approach notes, chromatics, octave displacement, dropped notes, one full chord lay out, etc.).4. Write out the variations at first - if need be.5. Learn to skillfully introduce variations "off the cuff".6. Play it many times in a row, using variations on each repetition - off the cuff.
    I think that's a perfectly good way to work. But I'm not (purposefully at least) exaggerating. If you can get it right once in tempo, perfectly, there is no point in repeating it. The first part of the sentence does a lot of work right? I mean can you do it in time, no mistakes, good sound etc? That itself might take a while to get up to speed.But the next point is important because we are not aiming to become technicians. We are aiming to be improvisers. We want to master the process of playing patterns and ideas through scales, not the patterns and scales themselves. This was quite an alien concept at first, but since I started to do this, my flexibility and command of the fretboard have increased massively.The full context - which I strongly urge any serious jazz student to check out - is a Jazz Life by Jon Klopotowski, which constitutes some very careful notes on Warne's teaching practice. I can't quote the passage in question due to restrictions on Kindle, but the relevant passage is on p138-139, and is very relevant with respect to the discussion here. Bear in mind Klopotoswki could already play - and had spend some time studying with Sonny Dallas, before starting with Warne. We aren't talking a beginner here. [BREAK] We can't ever practice all the permutations and patterns, or even scales in one session. This fellow did 5 hours of major scale:



    that's not even all the patterns.And that's just one scale.And scales are one small aspect of music. So obviously that kind of severe linearity is not even manageable, let alone constructive (I don't even think Neely is making a point here, I think he's just doing it to see what its like. He doesn't in fact normally practice this way, I think that's fairly clear.) Sure it's a strawman, but there are comments below the video that seem to think this represents a valid model for practice. So some people do seem to think it is necessary to do this. Again, read Klopotowski's story with respect to this...