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  1. #1

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    Hello!
    I have recently been focusing on arpeggios and playing through changes of standards just using them. I am now adding various extensions for colour and depending on the melody. However I am now finding it difficult to mix this with my previous approach which was very much key based where I focused on the various blocks of keys and function and then played melodies. Is there a good way to think to effectively blend scales and arpeggios in your playing? The melodic approach feels more natural however I think I am missing some important target notes when I play this way and so focused on arpeggios to get more of a harmonic outline.

    Any advice would be much appreciated as I feel a bit stuck!

    Thanks

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Scales are just 13th chord arpeggios.

    A few things to look at would be the Joe Elliot "Connecting Game" (search here, you'll find it) and the concept of "arpeggio up, scale down" and practicing that over chords.

    Also, practice 3 5 7 9 arpeggios, they sound great because they're not beating you over the head with the root.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  4. #3

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    It's all about what you hear. If you hear an arpeggio, play it. If you hear a melodic line, play it. If you hear an altered sound, play it. If you hear a triplet, play it.

    This is the danger of playing exercises - first arpeggios, then scales, then something else; it compartmentalises everything. Then you're stuck with the problem of integration.
    Last edited by ragman1; 09-27-2019 at 06:13 PM.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma View Post
    Hello!
    I have recently been focusing on arpeggios and playing through changes of standards just using them. I am now adding various extensions for colour and depending on the melody. However I am now finding it difficult to mix this with my previous approach which was very much key based where I focused on the various blocks of keys and function and then played melodies. Is there a good way to think to effectively blend scales and arpeggios in your playing? The melodic approach feels more natural however I think I am missing some important target notes when I play this way and so focused on arpeggios to get more of a harmonic outline.

    Any advice would be much appreciated as I feel a bit stuck!

    Thanks
    I don't know if you'll find this helpful, but ...

    Start with the key based approach. Then, instead of thinking arpeggio (that is, if you're using that term to imply playing the notes of a chord from the root up, as in, for example) 1 3 5 b7) just think about scale tones.

    So, if you're playing, say, a Gm7 C7 Fmaj7, you know you're in F tonal center. And, if you just think Fmajor scale, you'll probably avoid glaring clams. But, then, you can think about the notes which differ among the three chords. So, if you know the notes in each chord, you'll recognize that Gm7 has an F note and C7 doesn't. C7 has an E. So, there's a nice (albeit vanilla) sound you can get. In the context of your Fmajor scale, emphasize the F against the Gm7 and lower it to E for the C7.

    Then, when you move to the Fmaj chord, you'll notice that the Bb in the C7 is going to sound funny against Fmajor. To be clear, in a good line, it can sound great. But, generally, that Bb is going to imply a C7 (dominant) kind of sound, not the major chord resolution of the Fmajor.

    To sum it up, if you're playing these things in order e.g. F G A Bb C D E F, or, C E G Bb, you might consider avoiding that. Instead think of melody using those notes and thinking about the notes within each chord to catch the character of the chord changes.

    The same idea applies to extensions or color tones. If you know the notes in the chords or sounds you want, you can find a way to embed them within the tonal center -- as long as you're thinking melody first.

    This is a very basic idea. There is an endless number of ways to expand on it. And, I'm not at all certain if this even addresses the issue you raise. I responded based on having had a similar problem and having seen it in others.

  6. #5

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    One of the things I do is take simple theme. A theme could be triads from the 3rd's or even just an interval. For many, many choruses, with a metronome or backing track, take the theme through the harmony in parallel (in the case of triads from the thirds, that means just playing triads from the thirds of every chord).
    After a few choruses a transformation will start to happen.
    You'll start hearing other lines and embellishments.
    Resist.
    Then you'll start pre hearing the next chord, the note you wanna target etc.
    Resist. Stick to the theme.
    Play 5 choruses or so and now release.
    At this point allow yourself to start moving away from the theme and play what you hear. By this time you'll get very comfortable with the form and be able to take chances playing around the theme. But don't move too far away from the theme. Play 20 choruses.
    Then pick another theme and repeat. Another theme could be a couple of Charlie Parker licks that you can use for the whole tune. Play for 10 choruses, then allow yourself to freely change it as you start hearing variations.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma View Post
    Hello!
    I have recently been focusing on arpeggios and playing through changes of standards just using them. I am now adding various extensions for colour and depending on the melody. However I am now finding it difficult to mix this with my previous approach which was very much key based where I focused on the various blocks of keys and function and then played melodies. Is there a good way to think to effectively blend scales and arpeggios in your playing? The melodic approach feels more natural however I think I am missing some important target notes when I play this way and so focused on arpeggios to get more of a harmonic outline.

    Any advice would be much appreciated as I feel a bit stuck!

    Thanks
    Practice your scales in 3rds, triads and four note chords and bigger.

    Go down the scale and up the arp

    Build arps on the chord tones of scales, e.g
    G7 Bm7b5 Dm7 Fmaj7
    Cmmaj7 Ebmaj7#5 G7 Bm7b5

    Play inverted triads through the scale

    Play intervals

  8. #7
    Yea. And play intervals in intervals!






    Effectively mixing arpeggios and scales, mental block-int-pngAnd in arps!





    Edit: more serious though - mixing arps&whatever just takes intense practice for a while. Fortunately it's pretty simple this time - just do it until it gets comfortable. It's a standard practice I think - mix all that stuff, stumble a lot... until you can shoot it from the hip. I mean - I've asked around for this and people say something like: "wait, I thought it was obvious you'd wanna practice mix and blend".But any hints doing it more effectively is welcome for myself also. Struggling here a bit with the same thing

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
    Yea. And play intervals in intervals!






    Effectively mixing arpeggios and scales, mental block-int-pngAnd in arps!
    Play scales on your arps on your scales, dog!

    Play arps on your arps!

  10. #9

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    Buy Bert Ligon's Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony

    OR

    Google the term "Chord Outlines".

    Chord outlines are not necessarily purely comprised of scale or arpeggio tones only. They can be, but many are not. They may include chromatics, approach notes, other embellishments, etc. They are representative of the jazz language. Scales and arpeggios are the skeletal building blocks of the jazz language, but are much too plain sounding, a good deal of the time.

  11. #10

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    yea... there are many approaches for.... becoming a better player. The main differences, some take a long time, and some just don't get there. So you need a practice routine that covers your technical skills, the technical skills that will help you become a better player.

    Sounds like your working on soloing... if your going to play jazz, it's better to learn how to comp. Most guitarist can't comp, really and the reason is because they haven't put in the organized time developing the skills.

    Anyway... so your working on soloing... do you know how to construct melodic lines that reflect the harmony, or as least make the harmony work for your melodic lines.
    Do you know any simple very mechanical approaches for creating melodic lines over changes.... by that I mean can you verbally create a line and develop it. This is of your guitar.


    If you like arpeggios... when playing through changes of standards, create organized patterns of what scale degree your starting pattern on for each chord.... create a few rhythmic patterns that work together and then change.... the targets notes , the starting notes. Add scale or chromatic notes within pattern and again create repeating patterns.Try and create the impression or repeat...

    These exercises usually work better when just using two chords. Which will help your learn how to connect chords besides using basic voice leading, learn to connect chords with licks... don't worry about the voice leading.

    Back to melodic lines...

    It starts with the space.... the physical space your trying to play in. That space is almost always organized in a Form. So if you understand Form, The musical organization of space, Time.... you'll at least be able to give what you play a Shape that works within the SPACE... the Form. ( all the aspects I'm talking about, also work with comping)

    Keep it simple.... a 12 bar blues.... three 4 bar sections Think of it as an "A" "B" "C" The "A" section can be a statement, somewhat like a melodic line that becomes the basic Reference... Having a Tonic feel. The second 4 bars, "B" can be a new version of that 1st line... but with a new relationship... the new reference is the IV chord, Bb7.... and generally last part of that 2nd section, "B" moves back to the Tonic, F7. Then the 3rd or last section uses same line shape but now with reference to The V7 chord... C7.

    So if you become aware of what make melodic lines and how they work, learn how to develop melodic lines, again all very mechanical ... you sound like you can already use scales and arpeggios... anyway there are very standard mechanical developmental melodic tools... that work within space, The form .

    So you have a space.... if you want to keep it even simple... just have 4 bars divided into two 2 bar sections. The 1st two bars are your basic reference.... the melodic foundation of what your creating relationships with and then developing them. A very standard approach is to use a call and response mechanical shape.... the 1st two bars are the call and the 2nd two bars are the answer.

    You could just start with the call being a note or short motif... a simple melodic line. Then on the 2nd two bars start using melodic mechanical tool to create a answer or response.

    Scales and arpeggios are just melodic tools, ways to physically play notes.

    The easiest tool is just rhythmic variation....
    You can then use melodic variation of the basic motif
    You can use shape of the line, Range, change the chords.... use subs

    All this material is out there.... The jazz approach basically use more harmonic developmental approaches to develop melodic ideas.

    Very standard approach.... play a line over Fmaj 7.... create a shape and some target notes that help define that shape..... then take the same line and play it down a min 3rd. So now your playing the line with a relative minor reference.

    Ex. B C D B (G)... E C (D)....now play down a min 3rd, the target notes are in parentheses
    ......G A B G (E)....C A (B)
    All over Cmaj7

    So next time I might change the filler or connecting notes between the Targets... I can change one target or both.... whatever i do I keep it musically organized.... using simple devices.... like rhythm, harmony, range, octave displacement.... any tool(s). But I keep it organized so that I at least keep the feel of repeat, there is a balanced shape.

    If any thing sounds interesting... just ask
    Last edited by Reg; 09-28-2019 at 08:59 AM.

  12. #11

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    I really will need to look at that Ligon book at some point

  13. #12
    Thanks for all the great answers!!

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Scales are just 13th chord arpeggios.

    A few things to look at would be the Joe Elliot "Connecting Game" (search here, you'll find it) and the concept of "arpeggio up, scale down" and practicing that over chords.

    Also, practice 3 5 7 9 arpeggios, they sound great because they're not beating you over the head with the root.
    The 3579 approach is a good idea thanks.

    Not sure what this means sorry? Scales are just 13th chord arpeggios

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma View Post
    The 3579 approach is a good idea thanks.

    Not sure what this means sorry? Scales are just 13th chord arpeggios
    That just means if you re-order a 13th chord arpeggio to fit an octave, you get the underlying 7 note scale.
    1 3 5 7 9 11 13 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (note when you put 9, 11 and 13 inside the same octave as 1 you get 9 = 2, 11 = 4, 13 = 6 )

  16. #15

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    You kind of end up using bits of the 13th chord though. It’s not so often you get the whole thing.

    If you want to sound like Wes, play the upper bit of it.

    So on G7 play Fmaj7
    On Cm play Gm7
    So on

    I mean, just check out your favourite players. Don’t waste time asking us doofuses, we’re just middle men telling you what we heard our favourite players doing and probably getting it wrong haha

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Buy Bert Ligon's Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony

    OR

    Google the term "Chord Outlines".

    Chord outlines are not necessarily purely comprised of scale or arpeggio tones only. They can be, but many are not. They may include chromatics, approach notes, other embellishments, etc. They are representative of the jazz language. Scales and arpeggios are the skeletal building blocks of the jazz language, but are much too plain sounding, a good deal of the time.
    With all due respect to the other solid advice here, the post above from jazzstdnt might be the key to what the OP may feel he's missing. Scales and arps, even patterns based on them still do not sound like Jazz. To the OP, the answer to your question surely depends on exactly what kind of Jazz you wish to play, but let's suppose it's a solid straight ahead Bop derived type. If you listen to Wes, Pass, Burrel, Benson etc, you will find bits of scales and bits of arps, sure, but the rest is chord tone embellishment in ways that resemble the time honoured "language" of Bop. You will need to spend thousands of hours with these types of cells, first in isolation, then "connecting" them within a larger context (addressing changes etc).

    Where do you find this language? The same place all the players you probably admire did - by breaking down the solos of their favourite players. Yes, there may be some books that cater for those too lazy to put in the effort, but it's not the same result, for too many reasons to mention. Foremost is that you need to hear what you like, then spend an age decoding it such a way that you can put it in your own bag. You end up collecting ideas you choose, instead of ideas that are chosen for you out of context. This is how you develop your own voice, which should take you many years if not decades.

    So in a nutshell, analyse solos, decode the language (look for various kinds of chord tone embellishments) and make it your own by practicing improvisation where you learn to include any new material you master (preferably in all positions which will mean you can transpose to any key).

    The lessons section on this site can get you started with this stuff. Hop to it!
    Last edited by princeplanet; 09-28-2019 at 01:03 PM.

  18. #17

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    I mean the best road map I’ve come across for constructing bop lines from scales and arpeggios is of course Barry Harris. You might want to dip into that. Or David Bakers how to play bebop.

  19. #18

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    Some classic bebop phraseology using ( mostly ) ascending arpeggios and descending scales .

  20. #19

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  21. #20

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    So after you go through all the learning aspects of what makes music... musical. Your going to find that some players use melodic approaches and some use chords.... and some use a little of both. We're talking with respect to the OP's post about using arpeggios and scales with.... embellishments, added notes and all the other BS. I would suggest that Your playing the guitar... not a sax etc..

    You can copy single line players approaches, and use their approaches for creating musical organization for playing through, over, around... anyway you choose. But generally on Guitar... your playing a chordal instrument. learning melodic patterns... organized with reference to single line references... is somewhat silly on the guitar.

    After you have the technical organization of the guitar together... you can play anyway you want... but the reference will be harmonically... chords because that how the instrument is organized. I'll add that after you eventually get to the point where you understand Music organization, you'll see that music is also organized through Harmony.

    The 3 5 7 9 arpeggios are cool and sound hip because they set up the 9th .... but what make that note a 9th... a chord, there is no 9th without having a harmonic reference... Just a note... there are other approaches for using that note sequence, 3 5 7 9. or any note pattern.... harmonically. I tend to think of that 3 5 7 9 as a functional sub. if your playing on a static Cma7 chord, the 3 5 7 9 is a E-7, which is a Diatonic functional Sub. Just as is the pattern, 6 1 3 5 or 13 1 3 5 is also a Diatonic functional sub.... A-7

    So rather than..."thinking" Cma9 or Cmaj6 You can think harmonically, using Diatonic Functional subs... E-7 or A-7. The advantages are rather than just embellishing using the 9th, with reference to Cmaj.... THIS IS WHAT MAKES THIS A BIG STEP... your embellishing using E-7 or A-7. Which becomes instantly.... at least 4 notes and all the different relationships using either E-7 or A-7. Examples can be using all your, E-7 or A-7 LICKS and worked out improvisation or patterns.

    This simple awareness or approach instantly opens .... many more mechanical options for getting rid of your mental blocks, opening your ears to actually hear what your trying to play.... Sometimes. My point.... mental Blocks are generally from some type of technical problem.... trying to play or hear something without having the right reference. I just gave you ONE approach, but you might be getting the concept, the concept of EXPANDING what you know for helping you become a better Jazz player.

    Generally the books mentioned are just technical organization for playing... how to play patterns on your instrument. Which I preach and have always believed... without having your technical skills together...... It doesn't matter how mush you know. But actual performance... playing jazz can become much easier if you understand the musical organization.

  22. #21

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    I did a vid a while back that might be helpful, who knows?


  23. #22

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    [QUOTE=Reg;980676

    I would suggest that Your playing the guitar... not a sax etc..

    You can copy single line players approaches, and use their approaches for creating musical organization for playing through, over, around... anyway you choose. But generally on Guitar... your playing a chordal instrument. learning melodic patterns... organized with reference to single line references... is somewhat silly on the guitar.

    [/QUOTE]

    Reg - would you mind expanding on these two comments. Not sure what you are referring to here...

  24. #23

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    Oh I kind of understood that last one. I’m getting better!

  25. #24

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    My interpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    So after you go through all the learning aspects of what makes music... musical. Your going to find that some players use melodic approaches and some use chords.... and some use a little of both. We're talking with respect to the OP's post about using arpeggios and scales with.... embellishments, added notes and all the other BS. I would suggest that Your playing the guitar... not a sax etc..
    Seems fairly self explanatory.

    You can copy single line players approaches, and use their approaches for creating musical organization for playing through, over, around... anyway you choose. But generally on Guitar... your playing a chordal instrument. learning melodic patterns... organized with reference to single line references... is somewhat silly on the guitar.
    I think this relates to Reg’s organisation of the fretboard which is based around chord grips to some degree. Matt could give more info.

    I agree. Most players (including this one who has been described as a frustrated alto player) organise the fretboard in terms of chord grips. It’s kind of part of the deal of playing this instrument.

    We are all reformed banjo players underneath haha, even now....

    After you have the technical organization of the guitar together... you can play anyway you want... but the reference will be harmonically... chords because that how the instrument is organized. I'll add that after you eventually get to the point where you understand Music organization, you'll see that music is also organized through Harmony.
    This is one reason why I think Barry Harris chord stuff is quite hard to apply on guitar. I know it’ll get me thrown out of the club but I think you’d be better off learning a load of grips and applying them at the intermediate stage anyway, working on the possibilities out of the fretboard.

    Anyway, Peter Bernstein works almost exclusively this way. Also see Bobby Brooms comments on comping/soloing.

    I don’t see the horn stuff as that different when you put it on guitar.... A lot of the time those guys are playing triads and chords anyway.... Unless it’s Prez or something. That def counts for Donny Macaslin, Joel Frahm. Big triad players, as much as Lage Lund.... They must all play arrangers piano....

    The 3 5 7 9 arpeggios are cool and sound hip because they set up the 9th .... but what make that note a 9th... a chord, there is no 9th without having a harmonic reference... Just a note... there are other approaches for using that note sequence, 3 5 7 9. or any note pattern.... harmonically. I tend to think of that 3 5 7 9 as a functional sub. if your playing on a static Cma7 chord, the 3 5 7 9 is a E-7, which is a Diatonic functional Sub. Just as is the pattern, 6 1 3 5 or 13 1 3 5 is also a Diatonic functional sub.... A-7
    So I think here Reg is talking about the mental difference between thinking about a chord related to some root or a functional sub. I always prefer the latter because I feel it’s more flexible. E-7 is the same sort of thing as C so a thing that goes from, say F to Em7 would sub in from Dm to C, or a ii-v-I type of thing.

    This is a more colourful way to go because your moving chords can be a lot more ‘out there’ For instance play a F#o7 or an F7#11 into Em7. You wouldn’t normally think to do that on G7 would you?

    So rather than..."thinking" Cma9 or Cmaj6 You can think harmonically, using Diatonic Functional subs... E-7 or A-7. The advantages are rather than just embellishing using the 9th, with reference to Cmaj.... THIS IS WHAT MAKES THIS A BIG STEP... your embellishing using E-7 or A-7. Which becomes instantly.... at least 4 notes and all the different relationships using either E-7 or A-7. Examples can be using all your, E-7 or A-7 LICKS and worked out improvisation or patterns.
    Yeah, I think that’s it... and it’s not just boring arpeggios and scales - it’s any licks, lines and doodads you know that work on minor chords. You can use different types of minor together - Reg has said that...

    This simple awareness or approach instantly opens .... many more mechanical options for getting rid of your mental blocks, opening your ears to actually hear what your trying to play.... Sometimes. My point.... mental Blocks are generally from some type of technical problem.... trying to play or hear something without having the right reference. I just gave you ONE approach, but you might be getting the concept, the concept of EXPANDING what you know for helping you become a better Jazz player.

    Generally the books mentioned are just technical organization for playing... how to play patterns on your instrument. Which I preach and have always believed... without having your technical skills together...... It doesn't matter how mush you know. But actual performance... playing jazz can become much easier if you understand the musical organization.
    I think Reg and I actually think along very similar lines, it’s just taken me a long time to work this out.

    Or maybe not! Is that the right ball park?

  26. #25

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    to me..the study of music and the playing of it are akin to the map and the territory..it is extremely fustrating to translate some concept written in a "how to play" book into a real musical idea..

    once the basics are digested (diatonic harmony-all keys..and the inversions of chords in all positions are useable..that is moving voices withing the chord itself transforms it into another chord and its inversions..you begin to see just how complex learning an illogical fretboard layout really is..yes the piano does laugh at the guitar in this regard..

    now that is the mechanical part..then the puzzle part ..what can you play in terms of a melodic idea over a G7 chord...well lets see there are hundreds of books and vids that will tell you a hundred different things some easy as just play the 1 3 5 notes of the chord.. to the mind bending..symmetric cycles and augmented scales over it..and even then you may listen and study a top player doing things that are not part of any thing you can relate to books or vids or advanced concepts..and they sound great and super hip..and how do you learn to play like that..

    I was told long ago music is a fustrating art and a life long journey..and even though I have studied and played with some great musicians and read the methods of top guitarists I find my self going back to basic triads and arps and scales from time to time and I always find something new to develope and expand

    I wont give any examples of how to "mix" scales and arps in time with enough effort you will find a way to do it and in time look back and wonder why it was such a mystery

    I watch Jeff Beck vids and am just amazed at his talent and the mastery he has with effects and sounds and wonder..does he even think in terms of scales and all that or is it all so ingrained in him he does not need to..

    I have found that we spend so much time trying to learn "how/what to play" we miss the point of just playing what we already know and enjoying it...sometime just playing several simple chords and a few licks feels just wonderful..
    play well ...
    wolf

  27. #26

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    Beck IS a melody guy....

  28. #27

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    [QUOTE=wolflen;980745] I watch Jeff Beck vids and am just amazed at his talent and the mastery he has with effects and sounds and wonder..does he even think in terms of scales and all that or is it all so ingrained in him he does not need to..
    /QUOTE

    Big fan of Beck. Here he is with Imelda May doing "Tiger Rag."

    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  29. #28

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    Well:

    Facts:
    1. In regards to Ligon's book "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony", it is about chords and harmony, and the creation of melodic lines by the jazz improviser.
    2. After all, that's what an improvised solo is - a melody - not accompaniment.
    3. It focuses on 3 very simple chord outlines which are used and have been used widely in jazz music. Then it shows a myriad number of ways to introduce variation to them, both (1) formulaic (enclosures, approach notes, chromatics, etc.) and (2) creative variations transcribed directly from master jazz soloists.
    4. Chapter 10 focuses more on the formula variations, and earlier chapters more on jazz artists' variations.
    5. And yes, the 3 outlines are guitar friendly enough, as are many of the variations. (but not all, of course)
    6. The book is not an armchair read - the person buying it is instructed to play their way through it.

    Opinion:
    Some big parts of the value of the book are;
    1. It teaches you just what the heck a chord outline is,
    2. It teaches you how to invent your own,
    3. Chapter 10 is guitar friendly (enough),
    4. It teaches you how they have been and how they can be varied and thus how to vary them yourself - to your own liking and capability, and the capability of your instrument.
    5. In that sense it is both a physical and cerebral study that covers all three facets of jazz improvisation development: Imitation, Assimilation, Innovation***.


    There are some caveats/limitations too of course:
    1. It is focused on II-V-I
    2. Many transcribed samples are from non-guitarists. Not every horn line or piano line are guitar friendly, (but many are). But let's not pretend for a second that jazz guitarists haven't spent and don't spend a considerable amount of time and effort aping horn players (like Bird for an obvious example).
    3. It's not a guitar book and doesn't provide fingerings or position markings etc.

    ***
    This approach is in stark contrast to Joe Elliots book about Jazz Guitar Soloing. Unless I missed a few key pages, that book skips right over Imitation while instructing the student to come up with their own "licks". It is written with the assumption that the student is a pop/rock/blues player, as the author himself was. That was/is the reality at G.I.T and M.I. of course so there's nothing wrong with that at all - except that it doesn't teach the jazz language - and so undermines its own title. That is a HUGE shortcoming. The good parts of that book are that it (1) teaches many common progressions, and (2) teaches the concept of voice led arpeggios.

  30. #29

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    [QUOTE=MarkRhodes;980752][QUOTE=wolflen;980745] I watch Jeff Beck vids and am just amazed at his talent and the mastery he has with effects and sounds and wonder..does he even think in terms of scales and all that or is it all so ingrained in him he does not need to..
    /QUOTE

    Big fan of Beck. Here he is with Imelda May doing "Tiger Rag."

    This was a tribute to Les Paul (and Mary Ford!) they captured the sound of her voice and his playing..Beck doing standards...
    play well ...
    wolf

  31. #30

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    I treat such excersises as something for practice room... arpeggio is arpeggio.. and melody is melody even if it contains arpeggio.

    Playing arps is one of the way to learn navigation over fretboord and it shows when you begin to play melodies.

  32. #31

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    Yea, thanks Christian.... pretty simple.

    Just for reference... we are talking on a jazz guitar site and about playing Jazz.... Jazzstdnt... Melodic solos are just part of the picture. If one is not improvising while they're comping or accompanying .... one might be missing part or what playing jazz is. There's a big difference in the result. I mean the interaction part can be just as important as the solo.

    I know I generally skip much of the beginning... even intermediate level BS... but I though I said that up front..... "After One Gets Their Xhit together".....So personally, That can be part of why most hit walls, mental blocks... we don't know where we're going, what the end result is.

    Guide tone jazz is cool... but it's pretty vanilla (That's not a bad thing, I'm pretty vanilla.) still from the everything is tonal and embellishments. Improvising with harmony doesn't always need to be.... fixed harmony.

    The somewhat next step, ( not for the 10 step or even the 12 step programs), is to expand the organizations from what paraphrasing, improvising w/harmony and melodic development use as a Reference... expand the Harmonic reference organization, can be as simple as using Functional organization, using Modal expansions of harmonic references...(not modes), Modal tonality concepts...

    Again... I'm not talking about how to spell and embellish II V I's .... more Like how to imply II V I's using different chord patterns derived from functional subs, modal subs. Different approaches for deriving Blue Notes chord progressions and same with MM.
    It's not complicated.... one can just use expanded use of subs and chord patterns from those subs. You can and usually still do develop and embellish the changes and melodic improv.

    Ex. Take a II- V7 I.... there are Blue notes from each chord, there are blue notes from subs of those chords, there are blue notes from chord patterns from each of those three chords.

    Then you can apply any of the typical melodic organizational improv approaches, Creating relationships and the development of that relationship. Simple ex. D-7 G7 Cma7....

    X 5 3 5 6 X ....D-
    3 X 3 4 3 X ....G7
    X 3 2 4 5 X ....Cma
    --------------
    X 5 3 5 3 X ...D-
    3 X 3 4 4 X ...G7b13
    X 3 2 4 5 X ...Cma
    --------------
    X 7 8 7 8 X ...E-7b5 (function sub from Chord Pattern of D-)
    X X 5 6 6 8 ... A7alt or Eb9#11 ...also from Function sub C.P.)
    X X 5 6 6 5 ... same
    4 X 4 5 6 X ... Sub...or X 5 4 5 6 X Ab13 or D7#9
    X X 3 5 5 3 ... Fma9 function sub of D- or G7
    X X 3 4 5 4 ... G13b9, modal interchange chord from Har. Maj.
    7 7 7 7 8 7 ... Emin... function sub foCma7... used Modal voicing to back up MI use

    So this is just simple chords using subs and chord patterns. Melodic soloing would be the same. This example is many of the chords and patterns I use regularly.... How you use rhythmically... Rhythmically is generally based on Harmonic Rhythm.... not just basic chord beats. Rhythmic patterns, rhythmic grooves, create feels of repeat. Those patterns have implied Harmony, Functional harmonic patterns, that create a feel of motion with repeat.

    Simple example is just V I V I Dom Tonic Dom Tonic. anyway that rhythmic pattern has harmonic pattern also. So when you use expanded Subs.... The rhythmic usage becomes more important. When you mechanically organize musical organization, you create value systems of what you use.... eventually this becomes internal and you don't need to go through the actual mechanical organizational process. You develop Licks... work with larger sections of musical space, this is where understanding of Form helps.

    Getting to detailed, sorry.... anyway like I said most books deal with technical organization of basic starting points.... whether they're harmonic, melodic or both, by basic I mean they're traditional functional harmony based with embellishment. There can be more.

  33. #32

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea, thanks Christian.... pretty simple.

    Just for reference... we are talking on a jazz guitar site and about playing Jazz.... Jazzstdnt... Melodic solos are just part of the picture. If one is not improvising while they're comping or accompanying .... one might be missing part or what playing jazz is. There's a big difference in the result. I mean the interaction part can be just as important as the solo.

    I know I generally skip much of the beginning... even intermediate level BS... but I though I said that up front..... "After One Gets Their Xhit together".....So personally, That can be part of why most hit walls, mental blocks... we don't know where we're going, what the end result is.

    Guide tone jazz is cool... but it's pretty vanilla (That's not a bad thing, I'm pretty vanilla.) still from the everything is tonal and embellishments. Improvising with harmony doesn't always need to be.... fixed harmony.

    The somewhat next step, ( not for the 10 step or even the 12 step programs), is to expand the organizations from what paraphrasing, improvising w/harmony and melodic development use as a Reference... expand the Harmonic reference organization, can be as simple as using Functional organization, using Modal expansions of harmonic references...(not modes), Modal tonality concepts...

    Again... I'm not talking about how to spell and embellish II V I's .... more Like how to imply II V I's using different chord patterns derived from functional subs, modal subs. Different approaches for deriving Blue Notes chord progressions and same with MM.
    It's not complicated.... one can just use expanded use of subs and chord patterns from those subs. You can and usually still do develop and embellish the changes and melodic improv.

    Ex. Take a II- V7 I.... there are Blue notes from each chord, there are blue notes from subs of those chords, there are blue notes from chord patterns from each of those three chords.

    Then you can apply any of the typical melodic organizational improv approaches, Creating relationships and the development of that relationship. Simple ex. D-7 G7 Cma7....

    X 5 3 5 6 X ....D-
    3 X 3 4 3 X ....G7
    X 3 2 4 5 X ....Cma
    --------------
    X 5 3 5 3 X ...D-
    3 X 3 4 4 X ...G7b13
    X 3 2 4 5 X ...Cma
    --------------
    X 7 8 7 8 X ...E-7b5 (function sub from Chord Pattern of D-)
    X X 5 6 6 8 ... A7alt or Eb9#11 ...also from Function sub C.P.)
    X X 5 6 6 5 ... same
    4 X 4 5 6 X ... Sub...or X 5 4 5 6 X Ab13 or D7#9
    X X 3 5 5 3 ... Fma9 function sub of D- or G7
    X X 3 4 5 4 ... G13b9, modal interchange chord from Har. Maj.
    7 7 7 7 8 7 ... Emin... function sub foCma7... used Modal voicing to back up MI use

    So this is just simple chords using subs and chord patterns. Melodic soloing would be the same. This example is many of the chords and patterns I use regularly.... How you use rhythmically... Rhythmically is generally based on Harmonic Rhythm.... not just basic chord beats. Rhythmic patterns, rhythmic grooves, create feels of repeat. Those patterns have implied Harmony, Functional harmonic patterns, that create a feel of motion with repeat.

    Simple example is just V I V I Dom Tonic Dom Tonic. anyway that rhythmic pattern has harmonic pattern also. So when you use expanded Subs.... The rhythmic usage becomes more important. When you mechanically organize musical organization, you create value systems of what you use.... eventually this becomes internal and you don't need to go through the actual mechanical organizational process. You develop Licks... work with larger sections of musical space, this is where understanding of Form helps.

    Getting to detailed, sorry.... anyway like I said most books deal with technical organization of basic starting points.... whether they're harmonic, melodic or both, by basic I mean they're traditional functional harmony based with embellishment. There can be more.
    Thanks for your reply Reg. Yes I understand that everyone (in small group anyway) is improvising to one degree or another. Even the drummer and bassist never play it the same way twice, they're not supposed to. That even extends to the cheese-ball, under-talented singer, does it not?.

    And I do appreciate that elementary jazz guitar studies and topics can sometimes be too pedestrian and under-stimulating for your interest. I can relate, but in other fields. But this thread isn't about any of that of course.

    Your posts above regarding substitution remind me of some upcoming goals of mine - Berklee's own Garrison Fewell and his two Jazz Guitar Improvisation books - the first with a Melodic focus (and harmonic TBH), and the second with a Harmonic focus. Not for the meek. We could start a couple of new threads. You're a Berklee man, you could lead the way.

    Who's in?




    .

  34. #33

    User Info Menu

    Play melodies.
    Best regards, k

  35. #34

    User Info Menu

    yea...Jazzstdnt.... I'm an old Berklee grad and UCLA back in 70's. Don't really have time to put together and lead a new thread. I'll help.

    The old just play melodies as approach works, just takes a life time...and doesn't really cover.

    Babaluma... seems to be like many amateur guitarist in general. Don't have the time, the guidance, the interest to have an organized approach for learning to play.

    If one wants to just be able to play some jazz tunes, have fun etc... it's great. Yea learn some melodies, memorize some tunes and basic changes... If you gets your technical skills together.... be able to play. That's what's been going on for a while....

    If one puts the same amount of time into organized practice working on Jazz musical skills... you might have different results. Wood shedding is work, organized work. Learning tunes... melodies, changes etc... is just a small part of the process. There isn't that much gratification from the process up front. But when you go through the part of learning tunes... you might be learning jazz tunes as a jazz player. I'm saying a lot of BS... I don't generally say.... but were on a Jazz Guitar site... I don't say BS I haven't already gone through and can't cover. Generally the one liners or light approach is more of what gets printed.

    All good...