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Just wondering what your thoughts are about learning Jazz vs. Rock.
Do you feel that Jazz is much harder, or complicated?
If you were just beginning lessons, would you say in a year you would be a better player in rock, or Jazz?
I'm taking Jazz lessons right now, working chords, and scales. My teacher is very good at not giving a student too much. I've taken rock lessons previously, but I don't feel like I was catching on as quickly as I am with this teacher.
If you could start over, would you still learn rock first?
Just wondering what style is more difficult to learn.
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12-22-2009 11:27 PM
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I studied classical guitar for a few years, then played/wrote in pop/rock bands for some years, then started studying jazz.
The classical playing - technique, reading, exposure to excellent repertoire, the challenge of exams - was imo of *much* more lasting value as a foundation for my jazz playing. With hindsight, I wish I'd taken the classical playing further instead of indulging myself playing rock, but hey, I was young and I made a few lifelong friends doing it.
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Imo it is not even close. Rock is very simple music both harmonically and structurally. Not to say that all rock is easy to play, because there certainly is plenty that is very challenging. Rock is mostly based on blues changes, and is diatonic. With jazz, you can be changing keys many times within a tune, and the changes are not I IV V based, unless you are playing a jazzed blues.
So rock guys can play one scale throughout the whole tune, whereas jazz guys can't. You can play rock without knowing the instrument or how to read music, much tougher to do in jazz. I think the knowledge gain from studying jazz is much more beneficial, because it is a bigger box. However, all genres has their own vocabulary, phrasing, etc. Jazz phrasing doesn't always sound good in a rock context, so transcribing solos is a key no matter what style you are pursuing.
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As a avid player of both rock and jazz I have to completely disagree with you on pretty much everything in this post. I agree that Rock is usually blues based and diatonic USUALLY. but simple structurally? what could be simpler than playing the same 12, 16, ect.. bar form over and over again for 7 minutes at a time?
Originally Posted by derek
Jazz players often play one scale over a whole tune, and rock players often write non-diatonic chord progressions and solo over them.
Saying that jazz is a bigger box of knowledge than rock just seems silly to me.
IMO learn the songs that you like and pay no attention to weather or not it's jazz or rock or anything else. you are probably doing better with the jazz stuff because you have a better teacher now and you're older. dig it. scales, chord progressions, rhythms, and form are way older than jazz or rock work on mastering those and play the music that you love.
P.S. Jazz is much more musically stimulating MOST of the time. But rock is way more fun to play when it's good. IMO
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I respect everyone's opinion and by no means am I looking to fan any flames that may be sparked with this topic but this caught my eye.
I have been playing guitar for almost 14 years and 13 of those have been blues/rock focused. The reason that I have gotten into playing jazz is the simplicity of rock which left me bored. I do not claim to be Adam Jones or anything but I am also not the worst guy with a guitar. I understand that for every rule there is an exception but I have a hard time seeing how the basic rock song and accompanying guitar parts are more or even as complex as the "common" jazz tune. If nothing else, the essential improvisational aspect of jazz demands more than what is found in any rock song found on a classic rick station.
just my opinion...
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i think we're defining rock differently. im not talkiing about ONLY the classic rock station. there are many rock bands that are still putting out very creative music right now.
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The problem is all generalizations are false
There are so many examples of complex rock music. Frank Zappa immediately comes to mind. Put his music side by side with jazz standards and tell me which is more complex and difficult to play.
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I'm happy I started a discussion that has such deep feelings for people. I have to say, that it seems the general opinion is that rock is easier to learn.
I have to agree with what was said above though, play what you love.
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My opinion is that although rock tends to be simple and limited (progressive rock aside), those limitations often create difficulties when it comes to sounding good. Key changes are rare, and chromatic notes don't usually fit within the idiom, so you're limited to the same seven notes and probably the same two or three chords to back you. The disadvantage is that it's almost entirely within the soloist's hands to make it interesting, whereas in the case of jazz you usually have a pretty complex harmonic structure which will keep it fairly interesting regardless; and if you're able to keep up with the changes, then you'll be pretty interesting as well.
If we include progressive rock and many types of metal under the umbrella of "rock" though, the style gets basically as complex as the musicians want to make it. Some RIO (rock in opposition) bands such as Thinking Plague and Henry Cow have complexities which rival that of early 20th century composers such as Bartok and Stravinsky.
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Jazz or rock? Hmm...Keith Richards or Kurt Rosenwinkel? Pete Townsend or John Abercrombie? Angus Young or John Scofield? Paul Gilbert or Frank Gambale? Eddie Van Halen or Marc Ribot? Steve Vai or Joe Pass? Peanut butter or jelly? Flatwounds or roundwounds? Coke or Pepsi? The freedom to make your own choices for yourself.
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Thanks for giving me some new bands to check out! Originally Posted by bifodus
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I would go as far as to say that even bands like soundgarden, tool, and weezer, leave a diatonic context regularly. Not to mention the rhythmic complexity. Seriously, transcribe a Nirvana song sometime, you might be surprised... Originally Posted by bifodus
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I have to agree with Miles Davis on this one there is no Jazz music only music. Labels are what we use to get behind our own bigotry much like we do in other aspects of life. Bluegrass is primarily thought of as 3 chord music but some of the players swing like Charlie Parker. Good is good and that's really all ya need to know about any music. Music evolves and some of us might prefer to play it at different stages of its development. Its ok we don't have to be defensive or snobbish about it we like what we like.
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I think I see one of the problems many of us have with this topic. In my case, being 59, I just don't listen to a great volume of rock bands like some of you do. Also, many rock players don't listen to a lot of music jazz players do. Combine these two facts and that's one reason why we wind up with so many opinions. It's a matter of breadth of experience and who we've seen and not so much a blanket who's better than who.
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You and I will have to disagree then. Yes, rock is very simplistic structurally, unless you are talking about prog, but then Prog isn't just rock anymore. Jazz is without a doubt a bigger box of knowledge, it ain't even close. I regularly play rock also, and in fact did today. Not hating rock, but rock music is very dumbed down compared to what was happening before it. Originally Posted by timscarey
However, the rhythm was so compelling at the time, Elvis et al, took over in no time. Ask the Tommy Tedescos, Howard Roberts, and other studio guys who played on all the early rock records what they thought. Those interviews are all still available.
I agree that it has an energy and is very fun to play. But usually diatonic? Come on. What rock tunes are not diatonic, other than an occassional chord out of the key? Zappa was moving the genre toward jazz with his fusion stuff, at least the stuff I have heard. I will admit to not being much of a Zappa fan though.
One scale over an entire jazz tune? I guess you could do that with a few standards like Autumn Leaves and some modal stuff, but that kinda defeats the point of jazz no? Jazz guys can play rock (lame perhaps), but rock guys can't play jazz without shedding.
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Originally Posted by timscarey
You're totally right. I haven't heard a lot of this from weezer, but tool and soundgarden are definitely good examples. It seems like the more repetition you use the further you can stray from functional harmony. You'll never hear a V-I progression in a tool song. Although bebop has a lot of chromaticism, the chords are usually very functional and the notes not in the current key are usually used in passing. And actually, my background in harmony has been a real hindrance for me in writing decent metal.
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i pretty much agree with derek, jazz is much more difficult to learn than rock music
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As a fomer rock player who started playing jazz about 18 months ago I have been thinking about the differences recently.
First off, I wouldn't say that one genre is harder overall than the other. There seem to be areas where rock is harder than jazz, and vice versa.
In rock, there is a lot of emphasis on technique - bends, double string bends, vibrato, bends with vibrato, trills etc. What I noticed when getting into jazz was that there actually seemed to be less technique involved -but a lot more thinking. There is a lot more variation to contend with - hardly any plain vanilla major chords, few open chords, lots of extended sevenths as well as awkward chord shapes to learn. Rock tends to focus on major, minor, dominant/minor/major sevenths. Rock also uses a lot of open string chord voicings, or power chords, limiting the range of potential chord shapes, but which means that it is easier to "get away with it" in rock compared to jazz. Of course, rock covers a whole variety of styles and sub-genres, so it's not something that can be generalised about, and at the same time things that might appear to be simple can be tricky to learn. The other day I was teaching someone three-string power chords; very simple in themselves but actually playing something like American Idiot involves careful technique in muting strings and changing from a fifth-string root chord to a sixth-string root.
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I have to agree that if we are allowed generalities, I would say that Rock Musicians (with many exceptions) do not have to have as much knowledge of music technically as do Jazz players. Same with rock singers and Jazz singers. How much brain power does it take to remember the words to "Dude Looks Like a Lady"?
Ron
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LOL! Originally Posted by Ron Vermillion
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They're different genres, and require different practices. Jazz players need to focus a lot more on theory and chord changes. Rock players need to focus on different things like bending, vibrato, whammy, pinch harmonics. IMO, neither genre is "harder" than another, it just depends how far you go with them. I could learn Wes solo's with relative ease, but a Vai solo seems like a monster challenge. At the same time, every Green Day song is insanely easy. A genre is only as hard as the artists make it. I would agree though that there are far more easy rock songs than easy jazz songs.
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BTW I agree with On Sugar Hill. Nice way with words. Besides how many Jazz Players suffer whiplash from slamming their heads around with 4ft hair.
Ron
Happy New Year
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Originally Posted by derek
Most rock guys, as well as jazzers, can solo over Watermelon Man, Chitlins Con Carne and other tunes in that style. Jazz is about a hundred years old; rock is about sixty years old; neither one adheres to strict limits and boundaries. And any claim that one music has more challenging pieces that another is pure speculation and anecdotal.
Both musics are so big and have gone through so many changes and styles that it really isn't too helpful to say that one is this and the other is that and a player of this won't be able to play that. All that talk is just marketing and helps you find a CD at a store. Marketing/record execs love that kind of shit, but musicians should only be full of shit -- not buying into it or loving it.
Didn't Duke say it best: there are only two kinds of music -- good and bad.
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True - apples and oranges.
Ron
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I play metal, and I agree, the genre is what you make of it, but you are only limited by the genre, I learnt jazz mainly so I could throw it into metal, and I like the result, also for you thrash metal players try speeding up the 12 bar blues, now thats fun.
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