The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi,

    Not sure if this is the appropriate forum; please redirect me if not. And apologies in advance for the very basic question!

    Having just picked up the guitar again after several abortive attempts over the years, I got hold of a copy of Jane Miller’s ‘Introduction to Jazz Guitar’, and have run into a problem.

    At some point over the years, I got a couple of major scale fingerings into my head, one of which is the pattern shown as ‘form 2’ at this link, starting with 1st finger on the 6th string:

    Guitarist Ted Vieira - Free Online Lesson 2

    This involves shifting up a position at the B string, and I do it pretty much without thinking now.

    Chapter 1 of Miller’s book lays out seven major scale fingerings, using the principle of anchoring fingers 2 and 3, and stretching 1 and 4 as required. So her version of Vieira’s form 2 involves several 2-fret stretches between fingers 3 and 4. I can see the logic of that, but find it pretty uncomfortable. Is it worth the discomfort for the sake of knowing exactly where you are on the neck? Or some other advantage I haven’t appreciated yet?

    thanks,
    TimH

    (edited to include pic of the Miller fingerings):

    Major scale fingerings-img_2545-jpg
    Last edited by timh; 03-13-2019 at 11:06 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I doubt just playing a major scale is worth any discomfort at all. To quote good ol' Joe Pass: 'If it's difficult, don't play it'.

  4. #3

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    discomfort as in difficult, or discomfort as in pain?

  5. #4

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    Doing finger stretches with your 1st and 4th fingers so that you can stay in position while playing major scales is the same approach that William Leavitt teaches in his method books and is a valid one.

    The discomfort you feel will eventually go away as you develop more reach ability.

    You will find the same discomfort happens with certain chord formations that involve more of a reach. After you work with them for a while they aren't uncomfortable to play anymore.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    discomfort as in difficult, or discomfort as in pain?
    Just awkward - though maybe ask me again in a couple of weeks

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Herron
    Doing finger stretches with your 1st and 4th fingers so that you can stay in position while playing major scales is the same approach that William Leavitt teaches in his method books and is a valid one.
    I see Jane Miller is a Berklee person, so I guess that makes sense.

    The discomfort you feel will eventually go away as you develop more reach ability.

    You will find the same discomfort happens with certain chord formations that involve more of a reach. After you work with them for a while they aren't uncomfortable to play anymore.
    Thanks Steven - I'll persist with it for now. It strikes me that it may also be designed to let you play other scales/modes with minimal changes of hand position(?).

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I doubt just playing a major scale is worth any discomfort at all. To quote good ol' Joe Pass: 'If it's difficult, don't play it'.

    I love this quote, but for beginners I think it's hard to use it because everything will be difficult.

  9. #8

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    Aside from stretches and what not, there are a few 'systems' for playing major scale fingerings. In the end I think a goal should be, that the shapes start turning into a single bigger picture across the neck.

    I have some friends that use the Berkley system, which works great for them.

    I use a 5 shape system-CAGED shapes. I believe Howard Roberts taught these. They're in tons of books and online. Martino used these shapes and tons of players. Sometimes they're called Old school shapes or closed grip. It isn't that there aren't any stretches-you can easily reach to the next note or shape. I'm not sure, but I bet Joe Pass used these shapes.

    I also use a set of 3 note per string shapes that have lots of stretches and shifts. I used these a lot in my rock playing but I use them in my jazz playing as well.

    I never like scale systems that been a few of the 3 note per string shapes and a few of the CAGED shapes. I like to have the full set of each, and that's what I teach. I mainly operate from the CAGED shapes though. ymmv

  10. #9

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    The 3nps shapes are more useful in rock and particularly shred guitar.

    I find the caged shapes better for jazz guitar.

    Ted Viera's shapes are confusing for a newb. I'd use traditional caged shapes or standard 3nps shapes.

    Major scale fingerings-b1c0c67462e38646aeb704431c6e9085-jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images Major scale fingerings-3npsg-jpg 

  11. #10

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    I think an important thing to keep in mind is you don't have to choose only one way to finger a scale. But you also have to decide how much time and effort you want to put into fingering scales.

    I originally learned major scales as 7 positions with finger stretches, and I'm glad I learned it that way. Not avoiding those stretches gave me the ability to play in strict position, adopt CAGED fingerings or adopt 3NPS fingerings with little effort. It also provided the basis for how I move up and down the strings with overlapping 6-note groups.

    There are way more guitar players in the world that avoid those stretches and do just fine, though.

    .

  12. #11

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    I absolutely agree.
    Easier to outline the harmony with CAGED shapes(the same shapes in the beginning of Linear Expressions). I use pentatonic boxes as well and they fit together like a glove.

    There are certain times I like to reach for 3np shapes.
    Certain runs occasionally (way more my rock days). And I like them for quartal stuff too.

    Stuff like this is kind of a personal thing for guitar players so I never like to step on anyones toes, I just know what works best for me.

    I like having full sets of each system and always steered clear of systems that had 2 or 3 of one and 2 or 3 of the other because like having them both worked out across the whole fretboard. I phrase different in each type of shape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    The 3nps shapes are more useful in rock and particularly shred guitar.

    I find the caged shapes better for jazz guitar.

    Ted Viera's shapes are confusing for a newb. I'd use traditional caged shapes or standard 3nps shapes.

    Major scale fingerings-b1c0c67462e38646aeb704431c6e9085-jpg

  13. #12

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    Learning scale patterns from the lowest to highest strings is an important step in organizing the fretboard. I've also found that working 'low to high' on the other axis, by playing up and down an individual string, yields a lot of benefit. Figuring out how to navigate the 'one string guitar', shifts? slides? stretches? can answer a lot of questions you might have about playing in position.

    Check out some videos of jazz guitarists you admire. How do they get around the neck? Can you imagine how they did (or didn't) practice scales to get to that point?

    When you're working on a major scale pattern, can you pick out simple major scale melodies? (Happy Birthday, Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, etc.) Could some patterns be good for playing fast up and down a scale, and other patterns be better for playing melodically?

    Best wishes for your music,

    PK

  14. #13

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    I would advocate "CAGED Plus", which is just what it sounds like. That is, CAGED plus a few of Leavitt's "stretch" fingerings, namely:

    Leavitt Types 1, 1A, 1B, and 4.

    Furthermore, I would generally advise using the 4 Leavitt fingerings in higher positions as opposed to lower ones.

    Some considerations - if you have a long scale guitar (25.5") like a L5, Super 400, Strat, Tele, etc., the stretch fingerings in lower positions are completely unnecessary at best and injurious at worst. Some of the drills that Berklee teachers like Leavitt have stressed involve playing 12 keys in one position down low (2nd or 3rd position). These can injure your hands if you overdo them. You can avoid those drills, the the jazz guitar police won't come to arrest you.

    On the other hand, in the higher positions of the fret board the CAGED fingering shifts can be unnecessary and even disadvantageous.

  15. #14

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    On a basic level, spider exercise for increased dexterity.

  16. #15
    I personally don't like the scale fingerings in post 1 at all. I would recommend NOT using them , unless you are a personal student of the person who posted them or something. At a certain level, it could be beneficial to do thing's your teachers way , only for the sake of learning it their way, but I'm talking about sitting down with them on a regular basis, not just reading something off the Internet.

    There are basically three very popular systems for organizing scale fingerings on the fretboard . Others are more marginal or less used , but the 3 most popular are:
    1. Traditional CAGED fingerings, with shifts to avoid stretching,
    2. Stretch fingerings like William Leavitt layed out in his books, to avoid shifting positions mid pattern and finally
    3. Three-notes-per-string fingerings , which are somewhat a category of their own.

    The fingerings in post one basically combine category one and two in a seemingly arbitrary way. I would avoid these like the plague unless I took personal private lessons with the author and had that very specific reason for adhering to this very peculiar fingering pattern. It comes across as being entirely arbitrary , and I think it's confusing.

    it basically accents the disadvantages of both scale types without any stated advantage. The whole point of stretch fingerings is to avoid shifts, and the whole point of shift fingerings is to avoid stretches . Why would you want to include both of the drawback aspects of both systems? Learn caged or learn the Leavitt fingerings.

    If you want one scale fingering per scale degree utilizing the basic stretch fingering approach, try this.
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Yeah.
    I've attached a couple of pdf's which are more complete. Check out these threads and reg's youtube channel as well. I mostly use reg's fingerings for everything right now, but I'm still learning. He's not dogmatic about that stuff. They're a "starting reference". Once you know one way, you can play things however, but most of us don't learn one way well.

    A lot of people push back on the idea of some of these stretches, as if they aren't practical or something. I certainly did and wasted several years not getting started on this stuff as a result. After some work, I've found that basically my brain much prefers things which make more logical layout sense to ease-of-play and comfort only. You compromise some things, the more shifts you include in your default beginning scale fingerings. Neither way is necessarily right or wrong. You give up things on either side. That has nothing to do with slurs in playing btw. Separate issue...

    Make sure you pay attention to his technique comments here:

    Incidentally I have pretty small hands. You just have to be safe and do things the right way.

    This thread has become a repository for all things reg:
    Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz

    This one is pretty important as well:
    Techniques for Picking and Fingerings... basics and on to the speed of Jazz

    I've also attached some random personal notes on Reg stuff...
    This utilizes the principles of this fingering system without compromising with shifts etc. CAGED works as well and is more widely known. Eventually you probably want to know both but some fringe, outlier isn't going to help as a starting point. Your initial post isn't so much the result of your inability to UNDERSTAND the author's system. It's more the result of your coming to terms with the fact that it's CONFUSING in the first place.

  17. #16
    Many thanks for all the responses - what a helpful bunch of people

    I'll respond further as soon as I get my head round all the suggestions... and, as I should have done in the first place, I've now added a pic of the Miller fingerings to my original post.

  18. #17

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    The 4 finger 4 fret/CAGED shapes are great for outlining harmony IMHO.

    And I've played 3 NPS all over the neck for over 30 years and never had any hand problem and I have small hands and use mostly 25.5" scale guitars.

    But still, figure out what works best for you.
    Last edited by DS71; 03-13-2019 at 01:22 PM.

  19. #18

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    I don't like those types of shapes

  20. #19
    Okay. So the Miller fingerings are stretch fingerings which do adhere to those principles pretty strictly. They are distinctive and that they prioritize fourth finger stretches rather than first finger stretches.

    There is probably a more consensus view for using FIRST finger stretches to avoid fourth finger stretches , but people do it different ways. You'll notice, by the way, that Reg's fingerings which I linked are the same as Miller's basically, except they use first finger stretches instead of fourth finger. They also all begin and end on the second finger (except for one), the way Reg lays things out.

    William Leavitt is considered the guru of stretch fingerings methodology and organization basically, and he also defers to first finger stretches versus fourth finger stretches. His section on the evolution of scale fingerings through the cycle of fifths is really helpful in understanding how these are organized. First finger stretch fingerings can be understood to be at one end of the cycle, while fourth finger stretch patterns are the other end.

  21. #20

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    Yeah I think any stretching is be avoided in single note playing. It’s unnecessary.

    That said learning to reach back a fret from a position is not a technique I often hear discussed. But it’s often much more effective than students get stuck in too low a position and having to stretch up the neck.

    Furthermore that 3nps thing is a good way of optimising scales so they can be picked quickly, but we basically aren’t interested in blazing up and down scales that much.

    I prefer shapes that are small and easy to use, generally starting on finger 2 or 4 and can be linked together via shifting.

  22. #21

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    I'm studying scales splited in octaves and then trying to connect and visualize them connected to the chords shapes. I have no idea if this is the best way because I didn't try a lot of diferents ways, but this is working for now.

  23. #22

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    That's what I said certain times with the 3npc.
    You can still add chromaticism. but the CAGED shapes are my go to, especially when I'm trying to outline the chords with my lines.

    Jens Larsen uses 3nps though, for jazz. To each their own. Works great for him.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by clebergf
    I'm studying scales splited in octaves and then trying to connect and visualize them connected to the chords shapes. I have no idea if this is the best way because I didn't try a lot of diferents ways, but this is working for now.
    This is the way I'm doing things now. I've gone through the CAGED and 3nps thing at certain points, and found both problematic.

    I got into it because I realised using whole scale positions is ungainly in jazz. This realisation only popped up a couple of years ago. There's a Barry Harris exercise where you play through the progression of a tune running scales.

    I found very rapidly that I couldn't do this. So I relearned scales in smaller shapes, and now it's not a problem.

    I honestly feel smaller shapes are much more practical for jazz lines. The advantage is, if you want something a bit bigger, glueing the smaller shapes together is nice and easy.

  25. #24

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    Hi Christian, I realise this might be a hassle so no probs if it is, but do you have a diagram of your shapes, cheers, Simon

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Okay. So the Miller fingerings are stretch fingerings which do adhere to those principles pretty strictly. They are distinctive and that they prioritize fourth finger stretches rather than first finger stretches.

    There is probably a more consensus view for using FIRST finger stretches to avoid fourth finger stretches , but people do it different ways. You'll notice, by the way, that Reg's fingerings which I linked are the same as Miller's basically, except they use first finger stretches instead of fourth finger. They also all begin and end on the second finger (except for one), the way Reg lays things out.

    William Leavitt is considered the guru of stretch fingerings methodology and organization basically, and he also defers to first finger stretches versus fourth finger stretches. His section on the evolution of scale fingerings through the cycle of fifths is really helpful in understanding how these are organized. First finger stretch fingerings can be understood to be at one end of the cycle, while fourth finger stretch patterns are the other end.


    Miller's shapes are exactly seven of the Leavitt fingerings. The fingerings she uses are based on how the major chord sits within the shape. It's CAGED done one better in my opinion.



    ||---|-R-|---|---|---|---|---|-
    ||---|-5-|---|---|---|---|---|-
    ||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|-
    ||---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-
    ||---|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|-
    ||---|-R-|---|---|---|---|---|-



    ||---|-R-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-
    ||---|-5-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-
    ||---|---|-3-|-0-|---|---|---|-
    ||---|---|-0-|-R-|---|-0-|---|-
    ||---|-0-|---|-5-|---|-0-|---|-
    ||---|-R-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-




    There's no need to move your hand down to start the scale off the middle finger. The 4th finger stretches due to how fingers 2 and 3 are dictated by the chord.

    If you look at her pattern #4, the index finger stretches for the same reason:


    ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
    ||---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|-
    ||---|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|-
    ||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|-
    ||---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-
    ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-


    ||---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-
    ||---|---|---|-0-|---|-3-|---|-
    ||---|---|-0-|---|-0-|-R-|---|-
    ||---|---|-3-|-0-|---|-0-|---|-
    ||---|---|-0-|-R-|---|-0-|---|-
    ||---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-


    It's extremely logical and well thought out.

    .