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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    But 'do you enjoy it'; who is 'you' here? Audience members or the player (as in ME).

    Anyhow, I can relate to the misguided over-focus on theory and knowledge instead of soul/feel. This is because I went form classical violin in an orchestra setting to jazz in a small group setting, while most of the guys I jam with went from Rock\Blues to jazz. I learned a lot about 'playing over the changes' and very nice jazz chord voicing etc... but my feel and tone weren't very good. It took my wife to be the one to tell me this! (honey, your friend's playing is very limited,,, but he sounds better!).

    So I joined a weekly blues jam session. This improved my feel and tone and that magical 'soul' thing.
    The amount of into on swing and feel are very small compared to the mountain of information on note choice... This is really, how you say - ah yes - shit - because it wires you up wrong to play jazz. You end up thinking notes are most important so they get prioritised in the brain when you play.

    Took a lesson with a good player to tell me I was out of time. And another, and another haha. I got the message, still working on it though, 12 years later...

    But the actual truth is not just - fix your time - but rhythm *is* jazz. Otherwise, how could a drummer take a solo and it be meaningful jazz?

    It's the most important thing. It's the language. Everything else is sugar and spice... Even the note choices in authentic jazz language are governed to a large extent by their place within the rhythmic phrase.

    Also rhythm is kind of more intuitive, like speaking somehow. More natural, fun, right? Obv. you have to know how to express the changes but that's less intellectual that people make out.

    I would say I think the feel of blues and jazz solos are very different. Scott Henderson said when he first encountered REAL blues playing it sounded out of time to him, because he was used to locked in jazz and fusion players who play in strict subdivision and so on, then he learned that that was the thing that made it blues, the vocality and speech like quality of the phrasing!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    BTW, it's all about 'ME' - but what I enjoy is being relaxed, in the pocket and well prepared in the music. Self indulgence is not fun to me. Things that involve the ego usually aren't.

    Takes a while to realise how that feels, and how to put your house in order so you can get in that space more easily.

  4. #103

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    you need "feed back" ..from other musicians..from non musicians..casual listeners..and some recording of yourself..

    OMG what would you do to play/ sound like jeff beck..Scofield said in an interview..when other musicians were "sounding" like him playing..."...I sound like THAT !?...)

    being confident in the sound of your own playing takes time ..one of the most confident players was Michael Bloomfield..he knew what he was playing and what it would sound like when he played it..and he liked it..

    The line many players say after a performance/recording.." I could be better.." well yes we all can be better than where we are at any given point..and with new material and practice we will be..

    Is it easier to learn one style over another...all need drive dedication and practice Beck Benson and all did not start out sounding the way they do today..
    play well ...
    wolf

  5. #104

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    Sometimes originality comes from trying to copy something and getting it wrong.

    It was easier to do when you didn’t have digital audio and Transcribe. Now everyone can get everything perfect.

  6. #105

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    Christian... yea.... It's almost too easy now. Putting in the time is work, but I had to put in the time just finding what to work on... had to go watch other musicians, talk to them etc... there wasn't always lots of choices of what to work on, I had to make choices and figure out ... couldn't just copy. Who knows...

  7. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Youtube rock/blues wanker algorithm (That Pedal Show, Anderton's etc)

    Algorithm 1
    begin
    10 Get a new pedal/amp, max out overdrive
    20 Play G, A, D chords in any order in open position
    30 Be blown away by the amazing sound etc.
    40 IF (bored yet) then GO TO 10 else GO TO 20
    end


    Algorithm 2
    begin
    10 Doodle around pentatonic while staying in comfort zone focusing on licks learned when you were 13
    20 IF (it's a good time to bend) THEN bend one of those notes on easy to bend strings
    30 Doodle some more
    40 GetRandomNumber(i)
    50 IF (i is odd) GO TO 10 ELSE GO TO 20
    end


    All the while thousands of internet beginners think this guys must be god.

    A mediocre jazz player is like Chopin compared to a mediocre rock/blues wanker in all aspects of musicianship.
    Finally someone who is not afraid to call it like it is!

  8. #107

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    All I know is that I'd rather hear a garbage collector say something interesting than hear an English professor say something boring. As Louie Armstrong said, there's only two kinds of music... music that sounds good and music that doesn't sound good. And there are both kinds in every genre of music, and at every level of difficulty. Watching a musician for their virtuosity alone is very interesting for about 20 minutes. Then you want to go hear some good music.

  9. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by strumcat View Post
    All I know is that I'd rather hear a garbage collector say something interesting than hear an English professor say something boring. As Louie Armstrong said, there's only two kinds of music... music that sounds good and music that doesn't sound good. And there are both kinds in every genre of music, and at every level of difficulty. Watching a musician for their virtuosity alone is very interesting for about 20 minutes. Then you want to go hear some good music.
    Wow, you say that like there's someone out there that actually might disagree with such an obvious thing to say!

    Now, if this thread was titled "compare how you feel when listening to really great rock/blues playing vs difficult-yet-uninspiring Jazz playing" - you're comment would be right at home. But seeing it isn't, well....

  10. #109

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    A lot of people feel that way about jazz though, like it or not.

    We can argue about why...

  11. #110

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    Yeah but then judging by the ratings, majority of people rather watch cheesy, exploitative, crime reality shows and keep being moved by the same fake, crude, obvious, banal devices then watching a good history documentary. Because that would be boring.

    Although we all sometimes wonder about the lack of popularity of jazz and question if it's the fault of jazz musicians and culture, ask ourselves if jazz has gotten too carried away, is it too pretentious and in love with the idea of itself. Those elements might be there sometimes. Especially with the young musicians. Nothing is perfect. But jazz has consistently appealed to and satisfied the more curious demographic who is offended by the mainstream populist cliches. That's a very important task to fulfil.

  12. #111

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    yea... sounds like we get it.... more difficult to play and much more difficult to perform Jazz etc...

    So when one goes to see and hear music.... why do they go. the music, the show, the performers, probably the majority go for one of the three.... or maybe for the social action, food etc...

    It's a little weird to be on a jazz guitar site and need to get into why audiences would rather go see and hear jazz rather than pop, blues or rock etc... so as posted... the obvious, most don't....... But if one can actually perform jazz.... have performance skills.... be able actually make connection with audience.... most really dig it.

    The problem is most don't have those skills, because they don't work on them.... it takes years and is nonstop work. If you don't have or make some kind of personal connection to the audience.... your just background music. If you can't chew gum and walk at the same time...you need to work on the skill, it's part of performance.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by strumcat View Post
    All I know is that I'd rather hear a garbage collector say something interesting than hear an English professor say something boring. As Louie Armstrong said, there's only two kinds of music... music that sounds good and music that doesn't sound good. And there are both kinds in every genre of music, and at every level of difficulty. Watching a musician for their virtuosity alone is very interesting for about 20 minutes. Then you want to go hear some good music.
    I strongly disagree! 20 min is way too long, 5 min tops.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by strumcat View Post
    Watching a musician for their virtuosity alone is very interesting for about 20 minutes. Then you want to go hear some good music.
    If all one has to offer is their technical ability then they are an extremely lousy musician. If they can be considered musician at all. They exist in all types of music (rock, blues, jazz, bluegrass, classical etc.). So I don't know how that exactly relates to the thread.

  15. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    If all one has to offer is their technical ability then they are an extremely lousy musician....
    I feel inclined to agree, but then I recall events like going to hear Chris Potter live. Obviously a master musician, but it just didn't go into my body, busloads of technical ability, but mot much soul or something, dunno... Yeah, I wanted to leave after 5 minutes, perhaps more because I was a lousy listener, at least on that night...

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    yea... sounds like we get it.... more difficult to play and much more difficult to perform Jazz etc...

    So when one goes to see and hear music.... why do they go. the music, the show, the performers, probably the majority go for one of the three.... or maybe for the social action, food etc...
    Maybe that's why the food at Ronnie's is so bad? ;-)

    It's a little weird to be on a jazz guitar site and need to get into why audiences would rather go see and hear jazz rather than pop, blues or rock etc... so as posted... the obvious, most don't....... But if one can actually perform jazz.... have performance skills.... be able actually make connection with audience.... most really dig it.

    The problem is most don't have those skills, because they don't work on them.... it takes years and is nonstop work. If you don't have or make some kind of personal connection to the audience.... your just background music. If you can't chew gum and walk at the same time...you need to work on the skill, it's part of performance.
    Indeed.

  17. #116

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    I’m not so sure the chasms between jazz and rock or blues (or even country) has always been that wide. Take Scotty Moore or T-Bone Walker for instance. I hear lots of jazz in their playing.

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post

    If you disagree, you might infer that I must be doing it all wrong (I've heard that one before). Just so I see you coming, let me just say that if you disagree that the difference is that great, I'll say outright, without a shred of doubt, that you must be doing it wrong!

    Novices watching this space will no doubt side with the "Nah, Jazz is not that complicated" brigade. I get it, it's what you wanna believe (and we all tend to read and agree with what suits us these days - Idiocracy an' all that...). Cool, come back to this thread in 5 years and let's see how you're travelling, in fact, let's make it 10!

    I will agree with this and as a personal anecdote I will say as someone who has spent years playing both that I have posted something here some time ago and the consensus was pretty much that it sucked. It wouldn't be nearly that harsh if I posted something on a rock forum.

    However, I will say that most people gloss over the technical proficiency required to play even some non-shred classic rock. Somebody mentioned GnR upthread.

    Try to play this solo like this guy plays it. And it's not considered a hard solo...



    I mean granted, you can play the notes and even throw your own solo in there and it would fit fine, but I think part of the job of a rock guitarist is to play it 'just like that' or better with all the nuances and inflections. And it's not easy.

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks View Post

    However, I will say that most people gloss over the technical proficiency required to play even some non-shred classic rock. Somebody mentioned GnR upthread.

    Try to play this solo like this guy plays it. And it's not considered a hard solo...
    I agree it is not a hard solo. Not at all. I think most jazz guitar players were able play solo's like this and even harder before stepping foot in the jazz world. I personally was playing a lot of Metallica, Pink Floyd etc. before I got into jazz. Not very many guitar players who were teens during and after 80's (even 70's) start jazz before spending several years in the rock/pop/folk genres. You know at some point boredom takes over for some of us after shredding GnR, nR, nR, nR ...
    Rock and pop bands are more entertainers than musicians (with some notable exceptions). This is not jazz snobbery. I think that's how most of the public sees them as well. Learning jazz really makes you feel like you're on a journey to become a musician.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    I agree it is not a hard solo. Not at all. I think most of us in this forum were able play solo's like this and even harder before we stepped foot in the jazz world. I personally was playing a lot of Metallica, Pink Floyd etc. before I got into jazz. Not very many guitar players who were teens during and after 80's (even 70's) start jazz before spending several years in the rock/pop/folk genres. You know at some point boredom takes over for some of us after shredding GnR, nR, nR, nR ...
    Rock and pop bands are more entertainers than musicians. This is not jazz snobbery. I think that's how most of the public sees them as well. Learning jazz really makes you feel like you're on a journey to become a musician.
    Actually I was saying the opposite, lol.

    The consensus is that it is an easy solo, but it's really not that easy.

    I mean, a lot of people 'can sort of play that solo' but not like that guy. That guy hasn't just been playing for a few years.

    Check out the rest of his stuff...

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks View Post

    I mean granted, you can play the notes and even throw your own solo in there and it would fit fine, but I think part of the job of a rock guitarist is to play it 'just like that' or better with all the nuances and inflections. And it's not easy.
    I disagree that reproducing solos or entire performances with all the nuances and inflections has ever been a goal for rock. That's the goal of classical musicians. You'll almost never see a song performed exactly the same way live in the rock genre. That's for the most part because the style favours more in the moment experience and stage performance/entertainment than honouring the exact album recording. But I suspect it's also in part due to the limitations and gaps in the training of the musicians in some cases. It was I think a common practice at some point for rock/pop producers to use A-list session musicians instead of the band members for the recordings to save studio rental time and to get the best possible results. Session musicians had often jazz or classical background.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-02-2019 at 05:46 PM.

  22. #121

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    Who the hell cares if a jazz player can play a Guns n Rose's solo? I dont care if Slash can shred on Giant Steps...

    This whole thread reeks of guitar owner syndrome, where music is a competition and we need to make "best of lists" of everything.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Who the hell cares if a jazz player can play a Guns n Rose's solo? I dont care if Slash can shred on Giant Steps...

    This whole thread reeks of guitar owner syndrome, where music is a competition and we need to make "best of lists" of everything.
    Yea, sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way.

    I don't care, that's for sure.

    OP posted something about people who played both rock and jazz and discussing what goes into learning what and being a good player at both and I was commenting on that.

    Cheers...

  24. #123

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    Its all good. I think the thread is ridiculous anyway, which is no fault of yours.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington