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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    No, that would be too bleak a prospect for jazz. I meant when people you date get old enough not to be infatuated by rock guitar playing crowd. Let say 27 and older in most cases. A lot of Jazz guitarist started by playing rock. I don't see this forum being filled by 15 year olds unlike other guitar forums.
    Yea, I was worried if young ladies approach me after the gig does it mean I'm not jazz enough? Fortunately it rarely happens these days so I have more time in my hands to practice.


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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    No, that would be too bleak a prospect for jazz. I meant when people you date get old enough not to be infatuated by rock guitar playing crowd. Let say 27 and older in most cases. A lot of Jazz guitarist started by playing rock. Also I don't see this forum being filled with 15 year olds unlike other guitar forums.
    Well if there are some people who started playing jazz guitar when they were 10 or 11, I don't think they would post something here but for sure we would talk about them. Or if they posted something they wouldn't give their identity.
    Who knows ?
    Yes, it's true, everyone starts with rock or started, now I guess there is a kind of revival, when I was younger it was difficult to meet someone who really played jazz guitar and all the things around it. Now with internet, everyone knows it's something that exists.

  4. #53

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    the thread title compare learning rock/blues to learning jazz

    to me this would have to be the most basic of each style...

    learning 5 or 6 chords in rock and you could play hundreds of songs by "ear" and not have to learn a bit of theory-- from the 50's and early mid 60s ..after that "rock" evolved and Jimi took over and it has been evolving since..learning a Hendrix solo is not going to be an easy task as learning a beach boys solo..

    same time period early 50s/60s..jazz--Wes..Kenny Burrell..and others were playing standards and doing improve over them that took practice to some degree and absorb theory by osmosis if not through formal studies .. learning this by ear alone would be a challenge I think..the harmonic background would require some study of chords and voice movement ..

    when Miles went "fusion" .. McLaughlin and many others went with it..and it has been evolving since..again learning a standard from the 50s like "on green dolphin street" would be fairly easy .. but a "return to forever" or Mahavishnu tune is going to take some time and study of music directly or indirectly
    play well ...
    wolf

  5. #54

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    Joe (or anyone):

    Are there young rock players who I should be listening to? John Mayer is refreshingly competent instrumentalist at a time when pop artist tend to be mostly dancers with passable singing voices performing music written by professional composers and producers. But John M doesn’t surprise me with his inventiveness (like Julian L) or wow me with his technique (like Pasquale G).

    I don’t mean that in an angry old man way. I would love to be turned on to exciting new players. I think I’ve gravitated to jazz because rock guitar felt so stilted and preserved in amber. Weirdly rock feels like its gone backwards where Gilad H, Pasquale G, Julian L, et al, are making fresh contributions.

    Whenever I see live music it is usually some grey haired white guy trying to sound like one of the Kings. Hendrix, Page, and even Gilmore were much more avant-garde than what I hear out today. I would love to hear rock players as exciting as the young jazz players (or bluegrass players, for that matter).

    Suggestions?

    (PS sorry for the highjack. Joe’s posting put this in mind. )


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  6. #55

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    There is no genre of music harder to comprehend than Jazz. None. It's relatively easy to be an acceptable Rock or Blues player by comparison. Even Classical is easier to master as it's a more linear pursuit with a clear pedagogy. Jazz is unmercifully cerebral. Jazz requires deep commitment. Additionally, Jazz culture is such that unless you can show that you have done the work, you are NOT a Jazz musician. It's set up to be a fairly exclusive club from the get-go. If you want feel ok about yourself as a player and a person, stick with Rock and Blues. If you want to have your world and self-worth destroyed consistently, study Jazz. Jazz looks down on you with utter snark for even asking this question. (With the exception that it gives old-timers the opportunity to man-splain ad nauseum.)

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1 View Post
    Additionally, Jazz culture is such that unless you can show that you have done the work, you are NOT a Jazz musician. It's set up to be a fairly exclusive club from the get-go.
    No, you just need to have some friends around you who are always ready to congratulate you, the more you play, better you seem to be. You just need a start, you play something, you are not a virtuoso but people trust you because you know what to do, you accept sometimes mediocrity and try to fix the problem. There will always be someone who will support you, always someone but never yourself. If you're in love with yourself and think you are the best or a phenomenon and you are always giving advice "you should", "I'd rather you play", "stop it"...
    Be a diva, be a rocker.
    No, I'm kidding.

    But you're not wrong, people who play jazz or pretend playing jazz (that's my case) are always looking for something, they get complicated things and go back to simple things then take another direction, they make, they destroy, go further then back, learn something then surrender, get something they didn't expected, is it new ? No, it's a cliché... Need some ? Let's find oneself... it doesn't sound like the others want... oh ? I don't have the basic things...

    A good thing : everyone can take a place...

    Just about guitarists...

    Charlie Byrd, Mike Stern, Jim Hall, Lenny Breau, John Scofield, Joe Pass...
    Every kind of style, playing, concept, personality...

    The best musicians are always intimated when they listen to another musician and has to play with him or after him.

    One day Art Pepper met Sonny Stitt during a jam session, both were intimated, different styles.

    One day Paul Desmond said he was the slowest saxophonist in the World but he was someone, he had his thing.
    Last edited by Lionelsax; 02-23-2019 at 01:43 AM.

  8. #57

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    i think a lot of the "jazz is hard/jazz requires theory" thing stems from people not realising they are also crap at rock and blues.

    I bet loads of people think "twiddle around in this pentatonic here and there" and I am playing the blues. But they sound garbage, and dont realise what makes a good player sound like they are playing the blues (e.g through right notes collections at the right time, and phrasing)

    When they try and play jazz they sound even worse because the noodling pentatonic approach wont get them close enough to what the estimate jazz to be and this leads them to think their theory is letting them down - that they arent finding the right notes somehow.

    The lack of theory probably IS letting them down, but a good ear player can get pretty far with pentatonics and a few choice notes too.

    For me anyway, facing jazz head on was about throwing out the noodler in me and acknowledging that what I was doing, wasn't really music to anyone but me. For many learning jazz guitar is just learning MUSIC from scratch. many hobby guitarists (self included) and many of my friends, play for years without thinking of it musically.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet View Post
    i think a lot of the "jazz is hard/jazz requires theory" thing stems from people not realising they are also crap at rock and blues.
    Theory is just there to make you understand what you can't hear.
    Think about Babik Reinhardt, he didn't know anything about theory but heard everything because his ear was his only tool, for sure he had been born in a musical environment and for sure he was gifted.
    If you add theory to such people, it makes guys like Boulou and Elios Ferré.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Joe (or anyone):

    Are there young rock players who I should be listening to? John Mayer is refreshingly competent instrumentalist at a time when pop artist tend to be mostly dancers with passable singing voices performing music written by professional composers and producers. But John M doesn’t surprise me with his inventiveness (like Julian L) or wow me with his technique (like Pasquale G).

    I don’t mean that in an angry old man way. I would love to be turned on to exciting new players. I think I’ve gravitated to jazz because rock guitar felt so stilted and preserved in amber. Weirdly rock feels like its gone backwards where Gilad H, Pasquale G, Julian L, et al, are making fresh contributions.

    Whenever I see live music it is usually some grey haired white guy trying to sound like one of the Kings. Hendrix, Page, and even Gilmore were much more avant-garde than what I hear out today. I would love to hear rock players as exciting as the young jazz players (or bluegrass players, for that matter).

    Suggestions?

    (PS sorry for the highjack. Joe’s posting put this in mind. )


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    my point might have been missed here. i don’t like john mayer, although he does what he does well. I was trying to show how a top level blues rock player isn’t even in the same world as a top level jazz musician and the “difficulty” doesn’t come close”
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  11. #60

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    ps i dont think a player like mayer would ever CLAIM to be able to play at grassos level, or that they want to. Joe bonamassa or whatever his name is has some serious technique from learning danny gatton, but even him..
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  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Joe bonamassa or whatever his name is
    It's Joe Bonamasturbate....
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  13. #62

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    It's hard to play rock well.

    It's hard to play jazz even poorly?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    ps i dont think a player like mayer would ever CLAIM to be able to play at grassos level, or that they want to. Joe bonamassa or whatever his name is has some serious technique from learning danny gatton, but even him..
    I think he figured out to swing... Gary Moore.


  15. #64

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    Does it matter? If Rock were more complex and theory-bound, it would not be rock. Nobody demands that Reggae or Country be more difficult.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    Does it matter? If Rock were more complex and theory-bound, it would not be rock. Nobody demands that Reggae or Country be more difficult.
    True, but nobody demanded jazz to be more difficult either. It became that way during the wars and the economic collapse in the US. It became complex because the mainstream audience couldn't effort to see shows so musicians stop caring for the audience. If it weren't for that period, jazz would've continued to be commercial music today like country. Economic situation recovered later of course but jazz never regained interest in the mainstream audience.

  17. #66

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    ^^^^ this

    It is complicated by design. But so are some styles of classical music.

    One friend calls it, “bored musician’s music”. At least Bebop is. Played by musicians for musicians to showcase virtuosity in music.

    Rock can be that too, I just don’t think many people are doing that. Perhaps it wouldn’t be called “rock”. What would have sounded like if Bird had ripped up a Ariana Grande concoction rather than some broadway show tune? Would we call it jazz, rap, rock, pop?


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  18. #67

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    If the aim or the highest level is melody should it not all merge?

    There is so much jazz that is not melodic hence it lacks popularity. Too many wasted notes.

    Jazz is hard as a beginner let alone to progress to advanced There are many intermediate rock guitarists I would prefer to listen to than even so called jazz masters. But why progress or strive to be advanced in jazz if you cannot play a memorable blues solo or a memorable solo to Summertime. Is the complexity a crutch?

    I think jazz is hard to learn and easy to hide in its complexity and be average or below melodically, in other words really hard to be melodic, is there a fundamental floor there? Rock perhaps the opposite, easy to be melodic and easy to learn.

    How many jazz solos stand out and stick in your head compared to say Something by George Harrison? Lee Morgan has some unbelievable moments, Miles of course, Clifford Brown, there are some golden moments from Kenny Burrell and early George Benson but compared to the volume of their stuff the memorable singable melodies are few. And in the thousands and thousands and thousands of jazz recordings there are tit bits of amazing melody but can we name even 10 jazz albums that have the melody of a Rubber Soul or Abbey Road?

    Maybe jazz is more a live thing, when the band is burning and you are there feeling the energy there is nothing like it, the only recordings I feel a glimmer of that energy are Wes' live recordings. But burning is not memorably singable melody it is more like a metal shred fest without an overdrive pedal.

    I am currently weeding out my itunes playlist, if it is not melodic and memorable I am deleting. There is a lot receiving the delete button.
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    True, but nobody demanded jazz to be more difficult either. It became that way during the wars and the economic collapse in the US. It became complex because the mainstream audience couldn't effort to see shows so musicians stop caring for the audience. If it weren't for that period, jazz would've continued to be commercial music today like country. Economic situation recovered later of course but jazz never regained interest in the mainstream audience.
    That theory is arguable. But in any case, it does not matter why jazz became complex, only that it did. It stopped being danceable. Rhythm and Blues filled the space it left behind for black audiences, as did Rock'n'Roll for white audiences. Rock developed from Rock'n'Roll, retaining its rhythmic and melodic simplicity. Many have experimented with complexity – The Beatles, the Canterbury scene, various contemporary forms of Metal – but Rock keeps returning to its roots.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    That theory is arguable. But in any case, it does not matter why jazz became complex, only that it did. It stopped being danceable. Rhythm and Blues filled the space it left behind for black audiences, as did Rock'n'Roll for white audiences. Rock developed from Rock'n'Roll, retaining its rhythmic and melodic simplicity. Many have experimented with complexity – The Beatles, the Canterbury scene, various contemporary forms of Metal – but Rock keeps returning to its roots.
    Jazz is a sponge, when Blacks in the US became progressively (I'm not American but I can analyse some facts) real citizens (maybe during and after the 2nd WW) for the society, it became like classical Afro-American music and took all the things they had missed and became more intellectual, and got a kind of dignity and respect in Europe, something they didn't have in the US. So they became musicians and composers, not just funny entertainers as they used to be seen.

  21. #70

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    My 2 cents:

    I am not really sure this is a helpful comparison, but it almost seems like a paradox of sorts. As amorphous as a jazz composition can be it is reliant on a full cohesiveness of everything involved, meaning it is less about a pastiche of things and more about the full interplay between the components. Rock can be a pastiche of things if even for the reason to be cohesive. Ever heard Pete Townsend's isolated guitar on some of the Who's biggest hits? He really isn't playing songs. Here is an example from Terry Kath. Remember that they played this stuff live, so they were truly pastiches to make songs with everyone else in the band. Although it might not be fair to everything in the rock world it does illustrate a kind of separate of how the latitude of a jazz composition encircles a larger area than rock. Does this make sense?


  22. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez View Post
    ....And in the thousands and thousands and thousands of jazz recordings there are tit bits of amazing melody but can we name even 10 jazz albums that have the melody of a Rubber Soul or Abbey Road?
    ....
    Aw c'mon, there are thousands of Jazz albums with melodies to die for, left right and centre... Just because something is fast, it doesn't mean it's not melodic! Slow down Bird, early Getz, Clifford, Dexter, Rollins, Bill Evans etc etc etc.... It's all melody!

  23. #72

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    For sure man. I am talking about the other 4 minutes of the tunes the improv.
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  24. #73

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    Let's compare learning country compared to learning bluegrass....

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez View Post
    For sure man. I am talking about the other 4 minutes of the tunes the improv.
    Speak for yourself, I would rather hear any solo by Bird, Dexter, Wes, etc. than most rock guitar solos. And I am not a ‘jazz elitist’, I used to play rock guitar so the rock guys were my original heroes, before I got into jazz.

    I still like a bit of rock now and then, but it’s not long before I get a bit bored with it and go back to jazz.

  26. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez View Post
    For sure man. I am talking about the other 4 minutes of the tunes the improv.
    Um, that's what I'm talking about too! Seems we have different ideas about what constitutes "melody"...

  27. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    Let's compare learning country compared to learning bluegrass....
    My reply to this was equally as smarmy, but seems it got bounced... hmmm...

  28. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    My reply to this was equally as smarmy, but seems it got bounced... hmmm...
    Apparently different people have different tolerances for irony...

    I see nothing vicious in his comment. Mean-spirited sarcasm and sniping at another person in a direct and personal way are a pretty different type of thing. I just don't see it as that.

    Comments have a context, based on the individual delivering them, as well. The jester has always had his place in society. He often risks being burned at the stake I guess, but let the jester do his thing. He very often delivers truth juxtaposed with the ridiculous. In a DIFFERENT way, the shaman has deep truths which have to be sifted through vast quantities of seeming insanity.

    Tolerances for all of these types will vary based on temperament and on regional communication styles etc. There's a strong modern western society prejudice in my opinion towards a very linear, reductionist, scientific way of talking and relating. other societies seem to value very different communication styles 's being valuable for their own sake.

    To those of us who are less inclined toward an overly linear way of speaking all of the time, the overly pragmatic and academic/scientific way of talking about things comes off as being just as annoying as the babbling shaman may be on the other side of the coin. A lot of it is largely personal preference.

    Anyway, speaking of babbling... Sorry.

    Let the jester be the jester.

  29. #78

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    oh shit lemme be a knight
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  30. #79

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    I actually often find swing through most bop and even beyond improv MORE melodic. Anything that follows the changes...

    I think that's one of the reasons a player like say, Gilmour sounds so "melodic" in a rock context...he actually addresses the chord changes, doesn't just stuff the tune into a box and make "melody" from that.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  31. #80

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    Jazz is harder on many levels. So why does this need to be discussed?
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Speak for yourself, I would rather hear any solo by Bird, Dexter, Wes, etc. than most rock guitar solos. And I am not a ‘jazz elitist’, I used to play rock guitar so the rock guys were my original heroes, before I got into jazz.

    I still like a bit of rock now and then, but it’s not long before I get a bit bored with it and go back to jazz.
    It is not fair to compare jazz solo to rock solo. Again, the cult of soloist who can improvise their asses off is what jazz is build on, not rocknroll. It's your ultimate goal is a musician or thats what you looking for in jazz as a listener.

    Solo in rock doesn't have and never meant to have the same status. It's normally just an icing on top of the cake, the cake being a tune itself. And there great bands with great songs that don't even have solos.

    Of course there are exceptions like Jimi, Eddie etc., but Rock is still an art of the song, not art of improvisation. It's also an art of the band. Get the right people together and magic happens. And they don't need to be virtuosos either.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    It is not fair to compare jazz solo to rock solo. Again, the cult of soloist who can improvise their asses off is what jazz is build on, not rocknroll. It's your ultimate goal is a musician or thats what you looking for in jazz as a listener.

    Solo in rock doesn't have and never meant to have the same status. It's normally just an icing on top of the cake, the cake being a tune itself. And there great bands with great songs that don't even have solos.

    Of course there are exceptions like Jimi, Eddie etc., but Rock is still an art of the song, not art of improvisation. It's also an art of the band. Get the right people together and magic happens. And they don't need to be virtuosos either.
    I was just replying to ggomez, he made that comparison. But I understand your point.

  34. #83

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    "Music is hard" Miles Davis

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    It is not fair to compare jazz solo to rock solo. Again, the cult of soloist who can improvise their asses off is what jazz is build on, not rocknroll...
    You might want to be careful with the labels "rock" and "rocknroll." There is someone on TDPRI that will chew on your backside if you equate the two as one. They have a point, but to hear them get into it is tedious to say the least.

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    "Music is hard" Miles Davis
    "Life is hard, wear a cup."
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  37. #86

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    "Why is this chair so damn hard?" -my grandpa everyday
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  38. #87

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    I can have plenty pints and still rip blues/rock. I give up on jazz after half a pint. The beer doesn't drown my musicality that fast, but the brain support, focus and precision required for jazz goes out the window

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200 View Post
    You might want to be careful with the labels "rock" and "rocknroll." There is someone on TDPRI that will chew on your backside if you equate the two as one. They have a point, but to hear them get into it is tedious to say the least.
    Yea, sure, I can see that. Sometimes there's a thin line. But if we are being pedantic, there are even less people today who can play rocknroll than rock proper. "Roll" in music terms is just a sub word for swing. Those who know swing are in the jazz field, usually can't rock. Rock guitar is all shred today, those guys can't swing to save their lives.

    It's complicated

  40. #89

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    "......learning a Hendrix solo is not going to be an easy task as learning a beach boys solo........"

    I wonder what Barney Kessel would make of that?

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    It is not fair to compare jazz solo to rock solo. Again, the cult of soloist who can improvise their asses off is what jazz is build on, not rocknroll. It's your ultimate goal is a musician or thats what you looking for in jazz as a listener.

    Solo in rock doesn't have and never meant to have the same status. It's normally just an icing on top of the cake, the cake being a tune itself. And there great bands with great songs that don't even have solos.

    Of course there are exceptions like Jimi, Eddie etc., but Rock is still an art of the song, not art of improvisation. It's also an art of the band. Get the right people together and magic happens. And they don't need to be virtuosos either.
    Thank you for saying this!

    Funny how comparing apples to oranges reveals one’s biases. Both are fruits, both have their place. Some prefer one over the other. But ultimately they’re both meant to be consumed and enjoyed. Rock and jazz are both forms of music, like apples and oranges are both fruits. This is a jazz forum, so the biases show pretty easy. This discussion has migrated from comparing LEARNING (chords/progressions vs scales/progressions) to a popularity contest where jazz has no chance of being dethroned because THIS IS a jazz forum.

    Jazz is so much more complex, where rock is so much more simpler. Even most rock players will agree with this, and those who don’t are revealing their own biases. But complexity and difficulty are not always the same thing. It’s DIFFICULT to be a SUCCESSFUL musician in either field. Jazz is neurosurgery compared to rock & blues being general physicians or dentists. But they all are challenging to get to the point where you get paid well for doing them.

    There are complex rock musicians, like Beck, Vai, Malmstein, etc. They are considered virtuosos by other rock musicians. But, they aren’t as popular as some bigger names because their music doesn’t move the general public the same way. I prefer older, swing jazz, like Armstrong, Bechet, Django, Gershwin, Nina Simone, etc. I prefer the simpler, catchy melodies. The chords and progressions are STILL more difficult than the blues and rock I cut my teeth on, but I like them and that’s why I’m just now getting to learn jazz guitar. I don’t get into the modal stuff as much like Miles Davis, just my own preferences. But I resent anyone who looks down on someone else as INFERIOR because they’re DIFFERENT. That’s a revelation that your biases have more control over you than you think. And I see a lot of that in this thread.
    Last edited by zcostilla; 02-26-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    It is not fair to compare jazz solo to rock solo. Again, the cult of soloist who can improvise their asses off is what jazz is build on, not rocknroll. It's your ultimate goal is a musician or thats what you looking for in jazz as a listener.

    Solo in rock doesn't have and never meant to have the same status. It's normally just an icing on top of the cake, the cake being a tune itself. And there great bands with great songs that don't even have solos.

    Of course there are exceptions like Jimi, Eddie etc., but Rock is still an art of the song, not art of improvisation. It's also an art of the band. Get the right people together and magic happens. And they don't need to be virtuosos either.
    I suppose the Cream (live) was the jazz cult of the soloist applied to blues/rock.

    Not sure if it worked quite so well. I like the records better, the live stuff I find goes on a bit.

  43. #92

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    It will be a few years before you have that HONEST talk with yourself to decide if you can make decent sounding jazz music or not. Don't be like that player who focuses on theory and hormony while ignoring the most important part of jazz... the feeling/soul

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0 View Post
    It will be a few years before you have that HONEST talk with yourself to decide if you can make decent sounding jazz music or not. Don't be like that player who focuses on theory and hormony while ignoring the most important part of jazz... the feeling/soul
    You have no valid intrinsic reference points for this unfortunately.

    Remember an interview with Sco saying 'I can never listen to myself and work out whether it's any good or not.'

    He probably worked out he didn't totally suck when Mingus and Miles hired him... but that's extrinsic, right?

    Holdsworth famously hated his own playing.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You have no valid intrinsic reference points for this unfortunately.

    Remember an interview with Sco saying 'I can never listen to myself and work out whether it's any good or not.'

    He probably worked out he didn't totally suck when Mingus and Miles hired him... but that's extrinsic, right?

    Holdsworth famously hated his own playing.
    I stand by my statement and I believe it is valid.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0 View Post
    I stand by my statement and I believe it is valid.
    Oh I agree about the soul/feel thing 100% - I just think you overestimate one's ability to evaluate your own playing from an audience perspective.

    The main thing is always for me - do you enjoy it?

  47. #96
    Sick playing. Rarely heard someone using wholetone scale so innovative.

  48. #97

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    There are aspects of learning rock playing that I never grasped. When I was a teenager in the 70's I learned bar chords, pentatonic scales, box patterns, etc. My teacher would write out chords & melody lines for Clapton (Layla), Frampton, etc, and I learned Black Sabbath, Rolling Stones, BTO riffs & such from books and records,playing in garage bands. But somehow I never figured out how to get the sound and feel that sounded like the records.

    But I kept on learning guitar, moved on to Mickey Baker, jazz chords, Bird solos. It wasn't easier, but it made sense, it was more musical.

    It was years later, watching a friend of mine who was a good rock/blues player, that I figured out it was technique (picking, bends, etc.) and gear setups that gave him that "sound". I still remember my old Guild Starfire and rattle-trap Ampeg Gemini setup- wasn't so great for the jazz I was trying to play, but when he picked it up he totally ripped it up with sounds I didn't know it could make. But he would watch me play changes to "Au Privave" and wondered what I was playing!

  49. #98

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    Youtube rock/blues wanker algorithm (That Pedal Show, Anderton's etc)

    Algorithm 1
    begin
    10 Get a new pedal/amp, max out overdrive
    20 Play G, A, D chords in any order in open position
    30 Be blown away by the amazing sounds etc.
    40 IF (bored yet) then GO TO 10 else GO TO 20
    end


    Algorithm 2
    begin
    10 Doodle around pentatonic while staying in comfort zone focusing on licks learned when you were 13
    20 IF (it's a good time to bend) THEN bend one of those notes on easy to bend strings
    30 Doodle some more on pentatonic
    40 GetRandomNumber(i)
    50 IF (i is odd) GO TO 10 ELSE GO TO 20
    end


    All the while thousands of internet beginners think these guys must be gods.

    A mediocre jazz player is like Chopin compared to a mediocre rock/blues wanker in all aspects of musicianship.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 03-28-2019 at 07:05 AM.

  50. #99

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    yea... I tend to look at aspects of playing any style of music.... you need technical skills, both on the instrument and technical understandings of the music... the forms, the characteristic, both musical and non musical.

    And then you need the performance skills. Most tend to just combine the two and try and get lucky by playing the music over and over etc...

    I played rock, R&B and Jazz when I was kid... played gigs. I had a music teacher that taught me musical concepts while I was in elementary school. I also was made aware of the notation... I tried to transcribe jazz from the radio... (had a memory back then) I'm probably not the norm... that's what I hear from my kids all the time.... But

    It's pretty simple.... when one plays jazz they need to crunch more information in real time than rock. You need skills to perform any music. If you don't understand the information you need to crunch.... all you can do is memorize etc... I tend to talk and text more theory and harmonic BS... because I put in the time to understand the language.... that doesn't mean I didn't put in the time playing or getting my feel and soul part together.

    You want to play Jazz in a jazz style.... you need skills, technical skills.... before you can even develop your performance skills.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Oh I agree about the soul/feel thing 100% - I just think you overestimate one's ability to evaluate your own playing from an audience perspective.

    The main thing is always for me - do you enjoy it?
    But 'do you enjoy it'; who is 'you' here? Audience members or the player (as in ME).

    Anyhow, I can relate to the misguided over-focus on theory and knowledge instead of soul/feel. This is because I went form classical violin in an orchestra setting to jazz in a small group setting, while most of the guys I jam with went from Rock\Blues to jazz. I learned a lot about 'playing over the changes' and very nice jazz chord voicing etc... but my feel and tone weren't very good. It took my wife to be the one to tell me this! (honey, your friend's playing is very limited,,, but he sounds better!).

    So I joined a weekly blues jam session. This improved my feel and tone and that magical 'soul' thing.