The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Hi all.

    I have recently started to study the Jazz Guitar book by Jody Fisher. So far it's quite good.
    Does anyone have any experience with this book?

    Anyway, I am towards the end of the introduction book, and I am struggling to wrap my head around modes.
    The modes are just the major scale with certain start and end points?

    Help! :P (thanks)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by onborrowedthyme
    The modes are just the major scale with certain start and end points?
    Technically, yes, and not only the major scale. Minor scales also.

    For example, the C major scale from D to D is the C Dorian mode. Modes derived from the harmonic and melodic minor scales also have names, some of them confusingly complex.

    It's easy to think of the parent scales, and simply play them, but many players will say that each mode has its own flavour - i.e. C Dorian over a Dm7 chord - and are best played as though it were a scale in its own right. You get a better effect than just thinking 'C major'.

    There's considerable truth in that but there are many modes. Fortunately, some are used more often than others. Also some serve a dual purpose and have different functions.

    So it can get complicated. Possibly the best way is to tackle one at a time. Modes are used a lot more as scales in their own right in modal tunes than, say, ordinary standards - although, again technically, each scale over a chord is a mode of something.

    Take a tune like 'So What' by Miles Davis. There are only two chords, Dm7 and Ebm7, each lasting for several bars at a time. You may wonder why we don't just play F and Gb major over them.

    The answer to that is because the tune isn't really 'in' D minor or Eb minor, it floats between the two chord-sounds and requires a different approach. So the Dorian mode is used for both chords (C and Db major). If you try this you'll see the difference right away.

    It's a complex subject, too long to explain here, and you'd probably do better looking it up online. There are lots of sites on it but the trick is to get one that you find easy to understand. If you start glazing over with one, just try another one.

    Good luck! Any difficulties, come back.
    Last edited by ragman1; 01-25-2019 at 10:07 AM.

  4. #3

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    Rag, I know you're trying to help, but there are a lot of things flat out wrong in your post.

    OP, true beginner? I'd put the modes away for a while.

  5. #4

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    I know, I edited. Trying to condense it too much :-)

    You'll have him worried now, he'll think it's all wrong. Tell him it's not

  6. #5

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    Looking at various sites myself just now, it is actually incredibly difficult to explain modes simply and clearly. You should try it! When you think of one thing you think of something else too...

    They all do a fairly good job of explaining how you get Ionian through to Locrian from the major scale, but anybody can do that. It's explaining how, when and why they're used, that's the hard bit.

    I'm not surprised the OP is bewildered.

  7. #6

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    I've used some of Jody's books in the past. He has a lick book(vocab for me early on at the time) and Chord Melody book. I worked through both cover to cover. As far as fingerings for scales. I use both close grip and 3 nps, so none of my shapes are exactly the same as his-but in the end it's all the same notes.

    I wouldn't get to worked up on modes just yet. Time feel is huge to me. You could learn 100 tunes and 1000 lines and if your time feel sucks they're just notes. Learn a lot of tunes as well.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by DS71
    Learn a lot of tunes as well.
    I'd go for that. You'll discover modes more clearly as you go along.

  9. #8

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    Jody Fisher has another book/CD out that is entirely focused on the 7 major scale modes and how to use them.

    It is called "Modal Soloing Strategies For Guitar".

    Since you like his book that you're working with now you might want to check out his other one on modes.

  10. #9

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    The modes are just the major scale with certain start and end points?
    As a redererence to memorize - you can use it.

    But essentially I descrobe as two approaches

    1) Modality/modal music
    in that case the most important thing in the mode is its root. you should learn hear it stabel then it makes modality. You should learn to hear characterestic pitches and intervals and the relations within a mode and inside a mode. Modern modlity is quite open model, so do not expect strict rules there, it is all buil on how you hear it.

    2) Chord scale theory
    In that approach modes are applied in reference to chords (it is often irrespective what music it is). In othe rwords it can be traditional tonality and you refer dorian mode with II chord, Lydian with IV etc... sort of 'scope of notes over the chord'

    Again this approach is very controversal, and may lead to many mitakes, frustration and misunderstandings.

    In my opinion if you do not dive into 1st type (modal music), it is more important to lear traditional functional harmony, chord tones, arps and tension release. And then if interesting try chord scale approaches to see if they help you.
    There are quite a few pro players who use it and as many who do not use at all (though usually are familiar with the conception)

    I think this is the best that one can say in a few words... I came to understanding of these things theough years of playing, listening, reading, communicating... it is the process.

  11. #10

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    Chord Scale Theory is just a descriptive name for what everybody utilizes to one degree or another.

    The only things controversial about it are (1) it's name, and (2) the fact that it's taught in a certain Boston based conservatory as opposed to a dive bar with a backed up toilet.

  12. #11

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    Also, I frequently go into a rant about mode-naming. So I'll do it again!

    Why isn't D dorian (C major) just called C dorian? Then you know it's the C major scale from the 2nd degree, i.e. D.

    That's much simpler than, say, seeing Ab dorian and having to work out which scale Ab is the 2nd degree of. Or, if you see Ab phrygian, which scale has Ab as the 3rd degree (trick question) :-)

    Even better, scrap the Greek names and just call D dorian: D(C). Or F mixolydian: F(Bb).

    Or especially D(C hm) instead of D locrian nat2!

  13. #12

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    I'd have to disagree there...D Dorian...it's D to D...it's a D minor scale with a nat. 6th.

    Dorian scales(and quite a few others) are useful enough that you gotta just know 'em, and know what notes are the "important" ones. It's not just playing a major scale starting and ending on the second note. I mean, if you were playing C major, would you hang on an F?

    But playing D dorian, that F is a damn good note.

    But back to the OP, if you're really new to jazz, I'd reccomend a steady dose of tunes, chords and arpeggios before digging into "modes."

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Also, I frequently go into a rant about mode-naming. So I'll do it again!

    Why isn't D dorian (C major) just called C dorian? Then you know it's the C major scale from the 2nd degree, i.e. D.

    That's much simpler than, say, seeing Ab dorian and having to work out which scale Ab is the 2nd degree of. Or, if you see Ab phrygian, which scale has Ab as the 3rd degree (trick question) :-)

    Even better, scrap the Greek names and just call D dorian: D(C). Or F mixolydian: F(Bb).

    Or especially D(C hm) instead of D locrian nat2!
    I agree, but I'd keep the Greek nomenclature, which would make it easier (at least to me) to differentiate them.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by onborrowedthyme
    The modes are just the major scale with certain start and end points?
    In the same way that a minor scale is just a major scale with a different starting point.

    Thinking of modes as a major scale with a differnt starting point is IMO only useful to explain the concept of modes and how they relate to each other during a theory lesson*, but from a practical point of view, what they really are is a group scales that sound different from each other.

    If you hear the Summertime melody you'll probably not think something like "that sounds just like a major scale but with the 6th note as the root".
    I guess most people would rather think "that's a melody in the minor scale".

    The same is true for the other modes...

    ... almost

    The other modes are quite similar to the major and minor scales. Most of them differ by only one note from either major or minor.
    So instead of recognizing them as totally different "sound worlds" some people think of them as minor sounding or major sounding + this one note that is different.
    Dorian is minor sound with major 6th, lydian is major sound with #4, mixolydian is major sound with b7, and phrygian is minor with b2.
    (locrian is minor with b2 and b5)

    As has been said, it is not urgent to learn all of this ASAP.

    (* practically speaking you also take some advantage of the modes' relationship in the same way you take advantage of the relationship between minor and major. For instance you can reuse scale fingerings).

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Also, I frequently go into a rant about mode-naming. So I'll do it again!

    Why isn't D dorian (C major) just called C dorian? Then you know it's the C major scale from the 2nd degree, i.e. D.

    That's much simpler than, say, seeing Ab dorian and having to work out which scale Ab is the 2nd degree of. Or, if you see Ab phrygian, which scale has Ab as the 3rd degree (trick question) :-)

    Even better, scrap the Greek names and just call D dorian: D(C). Or F mixolydian: F(Bb).

    Or especially D(C hm) instead of D locrian nat2!
    The tonal center is D not C, all the intervals relate to the tonal center. I.e. the flat third is part of the dorian scale and is derived by flatting the 3rd of D major. It would be strange to call the F note a 4th when the tonality is D.

    To emphasize the modal sound you can emphasize the notes that make the mode different. For instance in lydian that flavor tone is the raised 4th. So F lydian it is the B natural. It would be strange and musically confusing to say emphasize the 7th of the C major scale to highlight the lydian sound of C lydian. Better to say the raised 4th of the F lydian scale.

    Modes are useful in composition/songwriting. Here you think of the tonal center, say G, but work with the chords built from the mixolydian scale for instance. Yes these are the same chords as C Ionian (C major). But the I chord and tonal center is G7 and it would be wrong and musically confusing to call the tonal center chord a V of C major. That would be like calling the G7 a V chord in a G blues.

    I don't think D dorian as being a C major scale. D dorian is a D major scale that has a lowered 7th and a lowered 3rd, that is the way I think of it and I believe is the more musical way to think of it. But really, I'm just playing my D minor chord stuff and am aware of the chord tones. Not thinking C major at all.
    Last edited by fep; 01-25-2019 at 02:37 PM.

  17. #16

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    The practical application of modes is creating melody drawing from a specific note collection
    in a harmonic context.

    Step 1:

    Improvise with a C major scale (any 2 octave fingering will do) against the following pedal tones or chords (one at a time).

    C (Cma7)
    D (Dm7)
    E (Em7)
    F (Fma7)
    G (G7)
    A (Am7)
    B (Bm7b5)

    Be mindful of chordal notes and passing tones/extensions.

    Step 2:

    Improvise with the following scales against a C pedal tone or the following chords:

    C/Cma7 C major scale
    C/Cm7 Bb major scale
    C/Cm7 Ab major scale
    C/Cma7 G major scale
    C/C7 F major scale
    C/Cm7 Eb major scale
    C/Cm7b5 Db major scale

    Be mindful of chordal notes and passing tones/extensions.

    The major modes in order of brightest to darkest

    IV-Lydian...I-Ionian....V-Mixolydian...II-Dorian...VI-Aeolian...III-Phrygian...VII-Locrian

    Do the same in all other keys (at your own pace).

    The same approach can be applied to melodic minor, harmonic minor and harmonic major as well.

  18. #17
    i'm enjoying the replies, it's put me at ease that people come at the modes from different frames of reference.

    I AM a totall beginner to jazz, I have played and recorded some of my own (non jazz) music over the last 2 years though, so i have some knowledge of chords/ major scale. I mainly just noodle over chords with the associated major scale and find what feels right.

    some of what was said here makes sense to me... totally agree with ragman1's frustration, why not call it C Dorian, or something similar. So you have an immediate acknowledgment of the key, being a beginner i'm having to work out what scale it belongs to each time.

    Thanks for the recommendations. Will do some more research, but as some suggested... learn pieces!

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    OP, true beginner? I'd put the modes away for a while.
    Seconded.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    you gotta just know 'em
    Of course.

    It's not just playing a major scale starting and ending on the second note.
    That's how it's explained theoretically, that's how they're derived. I never said that's how you play them.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    I agree, but I'd keep the Greek nomenclature, which would make it easier (at least to me) to differentiate them.
    That's what you're used to so you want to stick with it. And I suspect most players have their own ways of rationalising the confusion.

    But starting from scratch is a different matter. It could all be a helluva lot simpler. In fact, I reckon it's OUTMODED!

    Just my little joke :-)

  22. #21

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    If anyone had designed modern music theory in a sensible way, the name of the scale would be the same as the related chord.

    But it was designed by hippy layabouts and beatniks. So there you go.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep

    I don't think D dorian as being a C major scale. D dorian is a D major scale that has a lowered 7th and a lowered 3rd, that is the way I think of it and I believe is the more musical way to think of it. But really, I'm just playing my D minor chord stuff and am aware of the chord tones. Not thinking C major at all.
    Absolutely. That's what I said in #3.

  24. #23

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    Like I said, explaining what the modes are and how they're derived, or even what the notes are and how one thinks of them, is one thing. Knowing when, how and why they're used is another.

  25. #24

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    onborrowedthyme -

    The best way to understand modes is to use them, hence the advice to do tunes.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    If anyone had designed modern music theory in a sensible way, the name of the scale would be the same as the related chord.

    But it was designed by hippy layabouts and beatniks. So there you go.
    Jesus, right? Hell, I think I'll just start doing this anyway and see if it catches on.

    D Dorian = Dm6 scale. DONE.