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And, that's the way one of my teachers, a brilliant musician and composer, referred to it.
Originally Posted by christianm77
He did not say "fourth mode, D melodic minor" or "G lydian dominant". Rather, he'd say "play a G7#11 scale".
I confess that some of the focus on modes eludes me.
For example, I understand that there may be an advantage to thinking D dorian rather than Cmaj, if you're playing So What in Dm. But, that's only if you're playing a Cmaj scale as if the chord was Cmaj.
OTOH, if you know the chords tones of Dm7 or Dm13 and you maintain awareness of those tones as you solo, you could think Cmaj and sound exactly the same.
The key is not to think of Cmaj as 7 notes always in the same order. You can think Cmaj as a pool of notes to select from, while simultaneously maintaining awareness of the chord tones in Dm7.
I see an advantage in thinking this way. It keeps you from always thinking about things from the root.
My apologies to the OP. You were probably hoping for something a little less convoluted.
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01-25-2019 04:28 PM
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One thing: The way the terminology around "modes" is used in jazz is more of a shorthand, not always (or not usually) directly related to actual modal music. It's a shorthand label used for disambiguation. D Dorian, D Aeolian and D melodic minor are all pitch collections which could be played over the same Am chord. Originally Posted by onborrowedthyme
Hi all.
I have recently started to study the Jazz Guitar book by Jody Fisher. So far it's quite good.
Does anyone have any experience with this book?
Anyway, I am towards the end of the introduction book, and I am struggling to wrap my head around modes.
The modes are just the major scale with certain start and end points?
Help!
(thanks)
The Greek names may seem convoluted, but not LESS so than referring to each of these from its related major key.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-25-2019 at 05:58 PM.
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Moderator: Please change the title of this thread to "Be Careful What You Wish for Because You May Get It" ...
OP: Yes, this thread is a typical response to a simple question. Try not to hold it against us, or jazz. And whatever you do, don't ask us what kind of guitar to buy.
John
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I bet he wishes he’d never asked...
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The way most guitarists learn modes initially is in a derivative fashion. It's easily accomplished by taking a scale form and simply playing modes from each step of the scale. The problem with that approach is that it has a tendency to become more a digital process than an aural one.
If you are going to dip into modes, I'd suggest learning them in a parallel manner. Make a note of their individual qualities and spellings and try to sing each one. Bako mentioned learning the major modes in order of brightest to darkest. That's something I've taught many students and they tend to get the concept and hear the differences immediately. Notice the incremental nature of their transformation as they follow a descending cycle of 4ths - Mode IV, I, V, II, VI, III, VII:
Last edited by PMB; 01-26-2019 at 12:45 AM.
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Here is one of the points. Say you're in a section of a tune where the key is C major and you're playing over E minor 7. You might be:
- Just playing key center oriented lines. You're blazing through C major and don't give a damn about or aware of what chord you're on.
- You're playing harmonically specific lines. Then it's useful to think of the parent scale in a "chord in the moment centric" way. So you know it's a minor 7 chord but you also need to know the qualities of the 9th, 11th and 13th (flat, sharp, natural). These are either your passing tones (if you're playing a scalar line) or your upper extensions (if you're playing arpegiated lines). Emin7 has b9 and b13, "Phrygian" is just another way of saying this. If you're just thinking of the parent scale, the note F is the fourth of C major. It's not that easy to quickly realize that it's the b9th of the chord in the moment.
The point is not that you have to memorize 7 scales for the major scale. Whether you do that or not is up to you. But it's useful to develop some way of seeing the extesions/passing notes of a chord quickly as well as the primary chord tones within the vicinity of the chord root. I don't think of modes, but I trained myself to know all the intervals with respect to any note within 3-4 fret radius. The more you utilize this way of looking at the fretboard the more you internalize it. It feels really good when your ears start finding these notes without you thinking about it. There are different approaches but the goal is the same.
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Great! Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
... as opposed to a dive bar with a backed up toilet.
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Geez, look at all the modes the alphabet has. It's a wonder any of us can speak or write.
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so correct me if i'm wrong ...
the modes ARE technically the major scale with different starting points. E.g C major, but starting on G for Mixolydian
HOWEVER they are referred to as certain modes because the intervals are different, and this give the scales a distinct feel?
Side question... improvising with modes: how does that work with quite fast chord changes?
(youtube link to a popular song example would be cool)
Also I did reply before, but as a new member it kept blocking my replies awaiting moderator approval.
So my previous reply was something along the lines of:
Thanks for all the answers, the fact that experienced people are coming up with answers from different frames of reference puts me at ease slightly.I agree with Ragman1, I wish in the name of the mode, there was an instant symbol of what key the scale relates to. But i guess i'll learn them eventually. I will look into learning some tunes as suggested, I have been looking up 'fake books' and will invest in one on pay day!!
Thanks all.
Last edited by onborrowedthyme; 01-26-2019 at 05:50 AM. Reason: post script
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True beginner to jazz, I have written and recorded a few songs in the past 2 years while learning some basics of guitar. Mainly just finding nice chord sounds (without much theory knowledge) and noodling over the top in Major Key. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Correct. Originally Posted by onborrowedthyme
Side question... improvising with modes: how does that work with quite fast chord changes?
(youtube link to a popular song example would be cool)
Short answer - not very well
Long answer - you are really talking about learning to play changes. To do this you are going to need to be able to outline the harmony of a song clearly in chord tones. It doesn’t matter whether this is a tune where all the chords belong to one scale, like C major, (although in most jazz progressions there are at least a couple of chords that don’t belongs.)
For instance Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7
If you just play a C major scale on top of this it will kind of work, but you might be highlighting weak notes on top of those chords, for instance F on C or Am is highly dissonant. Learning to hear the strong notes on each chord is an essential step to being able to link them together with scale steps and chromatics.
OTOH this closely related chord progression includes alterations to the basic key so C major becomes less usable (although a skilled improviser could use it no problem). But learning to play chord tones on it would remain an effective route:
Em7 A7 Dm7 Db7
And even for something a bit more chromatic again:
Cmaj7 Eb7 Abmaj7 Db7
Same strategy.
And you could even play the chord tones of the second and third thing on the first thing and sound good because the progressions have related function.
Further down the line you can use what jazz musicians call chord scale relationships to extend what you might play on each chord. For instance Db7 on G7 relates to the Altered scale and so on. But this still relies on being able to outline a chord in your playing.
Any study of jazz should begin with learning tunes as early as possible.Also I did reply before, but as a new member it kept blocking my replies awaiting moderator approval.
So my previous reply was something along the lines of:
Thanks for all the answers, the fact that experienced people are coming up with answers from different frames of reference puts me at ease slightly.I agree with Ragman1, I wish in the name of the mode, there was an instant symbol of what key the scale relates to. But i guess i'll learn them eventually. I will look into learning some tunes as suggested, I have been looking up 'fake books' and will invest in one on pay day!!
Thanks all.
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In chord-scale theory use of phrygian does not imply modulation at all. See jonah's post above for definitions (post #10) modal music vs chord-scale theory. One of the confusion for the learners is these to are lumped together implicitly. They are very different. Originally Posted by djg
Last edited by Tal_175; 01-26-2019 at 07:54 AM.
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In fact none of them does. The purpose is not really to "describe melodic movements". I agree. Originally Posted by djg
The purpose I believe in Greek names to diatonic chords is to view the scale in a chord centric way as I said above (see post #32). I think the use of the Greek names for this purpose is a casual abuse of musical terminology and adds a lot of confusion. But chord centric view of scale is useful in playing the changes and coming up with chord material and being aware of the qualities of non-primary-chord tone notes (natural 6th for ii7 etc). This is the meaning I believe often implied in the use of the term "chord scale theory" (see Mark Levine). When used in this sense it doesn't imply modulation at all.
This becomes less controversial when the chord-scales aren't diatonic. Say D7#11 scale (lydian dominant) for chord-scale of non-functioning dominant chords. It's apparent here no modulation is implied. At least no modulation to "lydian dominant"
Last edited by Tal_175; 01-26-2019 at 09:01 AM.
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Sorry folks...
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I think Joe Pass deliberately down played his knowledge of theory. Perhaps he preferred to be seen as a pure artist or may be he was making a point of criticizing attention given to theory. I remember reading in an interview, someone said F#, he was like "What is F#, show me, I don't know these things", paraphrasing. I'll try to find the interview.
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Dunno who I agree with here in the back and forth, but here’s something I will mention. Originally Posted by djg
Playing E Phrygian on C Major is different to just playing C major. Adam Rogers talks about his teacher being hot on this btw, but let me make this less high faulting.
As you prob can see I tend to think chords not scale names. So here I was in a session (Gypsy Jazz lol) on Tuesday outlining Bm on G. I remember descending the arpeggio and thinking to myself - I don’t want to sit on G I want to resolve the line to F#. It sounds wrong otherwise.
Huh? G is resolved if the chords are the same thing, and Bm an extension of G.
Well I’m actually hearing Bm in G. The mode that is diatonic happens to B Phrygian. In CST terms that b6/b13 - G - is an avoid note.
The way Mr Klemons puts it, the melodic triad here is Bm and the b6 is a tension note. (But tension notes and avoid notes are not synonymous.)
I don’t know how the old fellas would say it, but Louis and Django heard it and played it way back when.
So maybe not a modulation, but not exactly the tonality. Where I diverge from CST is I don’t think it’s related to the root as a stack of thirds - I actually think we are dealing with music of layered tonalities and rhythms.
Anyway, this is not beginner stuff.
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What's common to all things attributed to CST is that it's a system of matching scales to chords. So may be it's best to see it as a non-committal platform that is just that. It can be used as a theoretical machinery in different contexts with more specific and committal meaning. Originally Posted by christianm77
So the two contexts being discussed in this thread are:
1- The notorious Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 as Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian. Many of us are grossed out by this. But it exists in respected educational publications. In response to a beginners question about modes, this use should not be ignored all together. Here this is a pedagogical tool. I tries to discourage student from just thinking and playing C major scale over the changes and help him/her be aware of the qualities of the extensions of the chords. It also facilitates aligning chord tones with the down beats. No modulation is implied. May be Greek names and referencing modal harmony is pedagogically shooting oneself in the foot here though
2- More complex treatment with tonal/harmonic implications. Let's take Summertime. First 4 bars are Gm. What scale or tonality to use. It's up to the improvisor. Most literal would be to treat it as G natural minor (as there is also a Bb major 7 chord in the tune). But Wes Montgomery and many others can be heard playing G dorian and G Melodic Minor over these bars. It can be treated as a "modal moment" in the tone. That seems to get the most interesting results. This is I believe similar to Christian's example. Does using G Dorian implies modulation to F major? Or is it a temporary harmonic reference? Same as G melodic minor. Is it modulation? or harmonic reference to MM? Either way there is more going on harmonically than case 1 above. It's not simply a pedagogical tool in this instance.
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Nah, it actually sounded tense/dissonant to me. Originally Posted by djg
There's a difference between saying resolving to the root is a bit boring, and saying it sounds tense. The G sounded tense in this context. Like a b6 on a minor chord.
'Bm is the upper structure of Gmaj, so if you start your Bm run the ear wants to hear it complete' just sounds like what I said in different words, unless I understand you hear it differently. Which you might, but language is limited.
But anyway, I've been practicing Jordan Klemon's stuff a lot. His thinking is very much based on hearing what you would term the US triad as a separate tonality on top of the basic chord. He uses the term tonicization. So your ears tonicize the sound of Bm on G. You don't hear a Gmaj7 chord bottom to top.
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1. Yep.... We would not be grossed out by the suggestion to play the chord tones? You know this advice would be pretty good if the scales were played in such a way as they emphasised the chord tones - e.g. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 5 4 3 2 1. But.... Best to start in chord tones. Originally Posted by Tal_175
What's common to all things attributed to CST is that it's a system of matching scales to chords. So may be it's best to see it as a non-committal platform that is just that. It can be used as a theoretical machinery in different contexts with more specific and committal meaning.
So the two contexts being discussed in this thread are:
1- The notorious Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 as Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian. Many of us are grossed out by this. But it exists in respected educational publications. In response to a beginners question about modes, this use should not be ignored all together. Here this is a pedagogical tool. I tries to discourage student from just thinking and playing C major scale over the changes and help him/her be aware of the qualities of the extensions of the chords. It also facilitates aligning chord tones with the down beats. No modulation is implied. May be Greek names and referencing modal harmony is pedagogically shooting oneself in the foot here though
2- More complex treatment with tonal/harmonic implications. Let's take Summertime. First 4 bars are Gm. What scale or tonality to use. It's up to the improvisor. Most literal would be to treat it as G natural minor (as there is also a Bb major 7 chord in the tune). But Wes Montgomery and many others can be heard playing G dorian and G Melodic Minor over these bars. It can be treated as a "modal moment" in the tone. That seems to get the most interesting results. This is I believe similar to Christian's example. Does using G Dorian implies modulation to F major? Or is it a temporary harmonic reference? Same as G melodic minor. Is it modulation? or harmonic reference to MM? Either way there is more going on harmonically than case 1 above. It's not simply a pedagogical tool in this instance.
But of course the 2 4 6 are just passing tones in this case. They have no harmonic function, and are just diatonic tones from the key. See also bebop scales etc etc. So, conceptually, we are dealing with chord tones, no?
One of my two or three big problems with CST is that the way its taught (from my experience) conflates passing tones and harmonic extensions. Passing tones are in general diatonic, or chromatic. They really don't have much to do with the chord scale. The chord scale sound is only there if the upper structure note is featured as a harmonic tone - or as many might understand it - a chord tone of substitute chord. Such as a D or Bm triad on G, for a very simple example.
It's important not to get misled by coincidences. The fact that I might play an F# LNT on the 5th of a C7 does not make it a #11, for instance. Experience tells you this stuff...
(And of course, experienced jazz musicians tend to see Dm7 and G7 together as a unit of some kind rather than separate entities, but schools of teaching differ.)
But yeah, it's about emphasis.
2. Major sixth on tonic minor has a long history in jazz, and I can't track down its history, but certainly the Basie band, Charlie Christian and Django all used this minor tonality as default. That includes the use of the Dorian mode. Take CC's Six Appeal, or the middle 8 of Django's Douce Ambiance, for instance.
The m6 is also the basic minor sound of the Barry Harris approach.
The Dorian and Melodic Minor were pretty interchangeable and the b7 usually used in descent and the 7 in ascent. Basically.... diatonic passing tones without function.
What makes this a bit different from Wes, IMO, is that they weren't hearing the b7 on those chords as a type of chord tone and he was... Even in the Douce Ambience example, that b7 sounds tense and resolves to 6.
Wes OTOH was following the later fashion for playing all minors as if they are the ii chord in a ii-V...
You don't REALLY have a true Dorian or MM sound until the player leans on the 7... Until then it's m6.. Which is the default functional jazz era tonality for a tonic minor chord. The 6/b7 thing in minor is quite interesting. (There's also a kind of exactly opposite way to look at it from the prism of modern jazz edu where a 6th on a m7 chord is seen as 'giving away the sound of the dominant')
Anyway apologies to the OP... :-)Last edited by christianm77; 01-26-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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That's a good point. Originally Posted by christianm77
Last edited by Tal_175; 01-26-2019 at 12:21 PM.
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Some other educators disagree. Originally Posted by djg
https://www.amazon.com/Chord-Scale-T.../dp/389221056X
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
What are some examples of that, and reliable sources?
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I'm not sure what you are referring to. I was agreeing with Christian in making a distinction between passing notes and upper extensions. If you contrast Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian approach of teaching with the chord tone oriented, more traditional approach, chord tone approach tends to treat passing tones as embellishments of chord tones (see forward motion by Hal Galper for example). They can be chromatic, appogguaturas, enclosures etc. You can be embellishing primary chord tones or upper extensions. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
In the Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian approach 9, 11 and 13 are seen as both passing notes and upper extensions. I'm not saying that's not correct. But there is a difference in the educational approach.Last edited by Tal_175; 01-26-2019 at 01:22 PM.
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The table of contents of this book doesn't really give a good idea about it's CST emphasis. If one goes by the chapter titles, it appears to be a fairly standard treatment of jazz harmony. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Do you know how is it different than this (which I have):
The Berklee Book of Jazz Harmony
That one has quite a bit of advanced CST stuff in it.
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A little more basic and maybe these will help:
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