How to become better at chord comping

[christianm77]

A more advanced comping approach, requiring a higher level of skill basically has the guitar playing a bass line while sticking and jabbing chord fragments. But, first you have to get 4 to the bar. Next step may be having more movement within 4 to the bar, so every beat is different. Then, after that, playing different rhythms while still implying the groove. Etc etc.

That said, it can be fun, it's not too hard. It was super cool when Joe Pass did it!

The main thing to develop is how you can dress up chords by doing half step slides. That's an important skill, then you separate fingers and thumb and get a nice bass line effect.

I would say these days, I think it's a little naff, a bit of a 'hey I'm doing jazz guitar' trope. I avoid this in my playing now.

[znerken]

So after having spent the entire evening reading what I imagine is a drop in an ocean about Barry Harris stuff, I understand that the stuff presented in the Chordability and Barry Harris harmony for guitar is only a tiny bit of it? So he teaches a lot of stuff, so one can basically go ahead and pick out pieces of what one wants to study, and then go for that. For example the harmonic stuff presented in the two mentioned books. If one were to go ahead and shoot for all the Barry Harris stuff, one would have a lifetime of study in front of them. Agreed?

[christianm77]

So after having spent the entire evening reading what I imagine is a drop in an ocean about Barry Harris stuff, I understand that the stuff presented in the Chordability and Barry Harris harmony for guitar is only a tiny bit of it? So he teaches a lot of stuff, so one can basically go ahead and pick out pieces of what one wants to study, and then go for that. For example the harmonic stuff presented in the two mentioned books. If one were to go ahead and shoot for all the Barry Harris stuff, one would have a lifetime of study in front of them. Agreed?

Yes. This is a massive rabbit hole.

Your problem is you have too much info available to you. You have to find a way to prioritise. The best way to do this is playing with as many good musicians as possible and getting your butt kicked. It rapidly becomes obvious what you need to work on if you are open to it.

[znerken]

Perhaps, it's a matter of taste. I would really rather an accompanist stay strong and simple if in doubt.

If the soloist leaves a gap you can do put in moving line stuff, it's a bit of give and take.

Ultimately, the function of the accompanist is to make the soloist sound good. There are various ways to achieve this, and it depends a lot on variables, experience, knowledge and so on but if I am playing with another guitarist, and they play nice simple voicings with good time and are nice and easy to play with, I am not going to complain.

That's what I aim for in my comping. I'm not trying to 'express myself' too much.

When I do and start doing clever-clever stuff, I think it leads to over-comping. And that's all bearing in mind salient points about lead lines, moving lines and so on, that's all good stuff if it's deeply internalised and natural. Imagination and creativity have their places, but to me that's something that builds on a strong foundation.

But if you only know a couple of voicings for each chord, you can still comp effectively, if unimaginatively.

I do't think comping has much to do with voicings. Voicings are just possible colours or tools or whatever. Some of the best compers I know use dead simple voicings. The aim is to make music.

For instance, probably quite a few people on this forum know more voicings than Jim Hall, but Jim Hall is still the best at comping.

Above all, a jazz guitarist should know their function in an ensemble, and listen at all times.

Well said. Now my teacher studied with Jim Hall, and I don't think he stresses too much what inversions/voicings are called. I beleive he thinks I read too much. Anyway, from what I understood from him, is that this is all one big package. You should be able to do everything discussed, but the most important thing is the groove, always. The tune we comped on was Bye Bye Blackbird, and there's a lot of repeating chords there, so I guess, when I played a pre practiced comping version on that song, and didn't change the for example F maj, the second time, that became boring. Ultimately I would love to be as good as my teacher. He never seem to do pre practice stuff, he just plays what comes to his mind in the moment.

[gggomez]

... a role in comping perhaps not mentioned thus far is also to help the soloist keep the form. I have played with drummers and bassists that play so straight providing little feedback for the improvisor so guitar can signal the turnarounds etc. If you hear the soloist getting wobbly it is super fun to jump in and make those turnarounds really obvious, might be as simple as just playing a bit louder for a few beats.

Perhaps the thing is what is the end game. Are you comping for a due performance, playing in a trio or big band. All quite different. Clarity in the end game will enable focus and achievment in the woodshed.

[christianm77]

Well said. Now my teacher studied with Jim Hall, and I don't think he stresses too much what inversions/voicings are called. I beleive he thinks I read too much. Anyway, from what I understood from him, is that this is all one big package. You should be able to do everything discussed, but the most important thing is the groove, always. The tune we comped on was Bye Bye Blackbird, and there's a lot of repeating chords there, so I guess, when I played a pre practiced comping version on that song, and didn't change the for example F maj, the second time, that became boring. Ultimately I would love to be as good as my teacher. He never seem to do pre practice stuff, he just plays what comes to his mind in the moment.

Yes, OK, that makes sense in context. TBH that is the challenge of those simple tunes.... But then for some styles of comping it's kind of OK to repeat chords - old school rhythm playing for one...

But that's not something Jim did (even when playing rhythm guitar) and I think he was conscious of keeping the harmony moving. Jim Hall basically invented comping in the pianistic sense, on the guitar.

In general, you can always do something - put in a 1-6-2-5 or some other turnaround, sideslips, moving lines and stuff, to keep the harmony mobile. Nothing overly complicated necessarily.

[znerken]

I also bought the Randy Vincent drop 2 book a while back. So what's considered the "best book" to get started on this topic:

Chordability
Randy Vincent Drop 2 book
Barry Harris harmonic method for guitar



I guess what one who has approached drop 2 chords as 7 chords should do firstly, is to practice all the 6 shapes and get them remembered. So major and minor 6. Then do the same for drop 3.


The Chordability book seems to make sure you are suited before starting on the Harris diminished stuff lastly:




The Randy Vincent book seems to jump right into it. Lastly, the Alan Kingstone book. Seems a little vague for someone like me, who is not very well read on the topic. Not a lot of text here.

[znerken]

I'll try and clear it up then

• shell

Just root, 3 and 7 (or 3 and 6 for a 6th chord) - no 5th.

• Barry harris

don't bother until you are strong in the basics

• drop 2

don't need to worry about this yet

• drop 3

This neither

• extensions

Notes above the 7th that you might add to a chord, so any number higher than 7, normally odd, for instnace in a Bbmaj9#11 chord, the extensions are 9 and #11

Don't bother too much with these for now. 7th and 6th chords are fine for now.

• groove

The most important thing. Learn to accurately place beats and off beats at different tempos. Learn the difference between a swung and straight upbeats. Simple repetitive patterns groove more than more interactive styles of comping, and probably a good start point. Must knows:

Straight four - every beat
Charleston - on 1 and 2+
Displaced Charleston - on 3 and 4+
Half time - 1 and 3
Pushes - 4+ and 2+

• rhythm

See groove

• not crashing with soloist

Clashing with soloist - don't get in their way. For instance if I play a 9 when you are playing a b9 in your chord - esp in the same register, will sound BAD.

Therefore, play in a different register to this soloist as much as possible, and don't dick around too much with the aformentioned extensions for now, keeps you safely out of the way where you can't annoy anyone too much.

• only color tones

Color tones = extensions

One good way to start practicing comping then, could be to do this over a 2-5-1 as a daily practice:


Straight four - every beat
Charleston - on 1 and 2+
Displaced Charleston - on 3 and 4+
Half time - 1 and 3
Pushes - 4+ and 2+



Right? Is + and? So 4+ is on the and of 4?

[joe2758]

Chordability
Randy Vincent Drop 2 book
Barry Harris harmonic method for guitar


The Randy Vincent book seems to jump right into it. Lastly, the Alan Kingstone book. Seems a little vague for someone like me, who is not very well read on the topic. Not a lot of text here.

kingstone book imo

[rpjazzguitar]

... a role in comping perhaps not mentioned thus far is also to help the soloist keep the form. I have played with drummers and bassists that play so straight providing little feedback for the improvisor so guitar can signal the turnarounds etc. If you hear the soloist getting wobbly it is super fun to jump in and make those turnarounds really obvious, might be as simple as just playing a bit louder for a few beats.

Perhaps the thing is what is the end game. Are you comping for a due performance, playing in a trio or big band. All quite different. Clarity in the end game will enable focus and achievement in the woodshed.

This is an excellent point. It's always great when one of the accompanying players makes it impossible for you to be lost in the form.

Drummers often do this with a lick at every transition. And, when I play with a drummer who just plays straight through the transition I feel much less anchored to the form.

I play with one bassist who likes going up the neck on oddly syncopated flights of fancy -- during somebody else's solo. I'm sure he believes that he's adding interest and pushing the soloist in an appropriate way. I just find it disconcerting.

Listen to Ralph Sharon with Tony Bennett going into any bridge. He'll play a mini symphony. Not sure where you are in an AABA form? No worries. Hire somebody who does that like Ralph, and you'll never have to count again.

On the guitar, you want to make the groove and form clear. If the soloist is going to outer space, you be sure to stay on Earth. If the soloist leaves a lot of space, you have a decision to make on how much to fill. Some soloists just want to hear the rhythm section ticking along during the spaces in the solo - no fills. I've heard some top pros all go into outer space together, and it can be exciting, but with mere mortals, there's risk.

[guitarplayer007]

Barry Greene has some dynamite comping on his site

[rlrhett]

I will put in one last plug for shedding the material, ANY material. I’m no expert, but I’ve been playing for thirty five years. For me it is always hard to start on a new topic. After years of considering myself a pretty good player, I hate that feeling that I’ve suddenly gone backwards and am playing with the musicality of a twelve year old boy someone taught to strum an open G chord. But there is no skipping this step.

What I hear in your recording above all is simply a lack of facility with the material. You are playing full voicings, with iffy sense of tempo, and less than awesome dynamics. I don’t think you lack a conceptual understanding, just time and practice.

You asked for a good reference, and people recommended the Fareed Haque online course. But you say you know all that already, and still you don’t sound like your teacher. Fareed is a monster player and top educator. But he isn’t inventing new material. He’s giving you standard comping concepts. So, without sounding harsh, if you already know the concepts but can’t play them you just need to shed. There is no new concept anyone can offer that will make you good at comping.

Alan Kingstone’s book is really eye opening and amazing. But it still needs a lot of shedding before it is useful for live comping. It also is more about taking your comping and solo playing to a new level, not necessarily the first level. It’s a fine place to start, but does it make sense to learn that new material when you haven’t mastered the material you already have? That is up to you to decide. But the Kingstone book won’t help you learn which voices to omit, how to keep tempo, or when to accent and when to lay back. From what I heard, that’s what is lacking.

So yes, shed shell voicings for several weeks even if that doesn’t sound like your teacher. Of course practice other aspects of your playing too. But I guarantee that if you just do that one thing for a month your comping will improve more than delving into any new book or exploring any new concepts.

Keep playing and good luck. (And maybe find yourself a different teacher. It doesn’t sound like his hands off approach is really what works for you).

[znerken]

I will put in one last plug for shedding the material, ANY material. I’m no expert, but I’ve been playing for thirty five years. For me it is always hard to start on a new topic. After years of considering myself a pretty good player, I hate that feeling that I’ve suddenly gone backwards and am playing with the musicality of a twelve year old boy someone taught to strum an open G chord. But there is no skipping this step.

What I hear in your recording above all is simply a lack of facility with the material. You are playing full voicings, with iffy sense of tempo, and less than awesome dynamics. I don’t think you lack a conceptual understanding, just time and practice.

You asked for a good reference, and people recommended the Fareed Haque online course. But you say you know all that already, and still you don’t sound like your teacher. Fareed is a monster player and top educator. But he isn’t inventing new material. He’s giving you standard comping concepts. So, without sounding harsh, if you already know the concepts but can’t play them you just need to shed. There is no new concept anyone can offer that will make you good at comping.

Alan Kingstone’s book is really eye opening and amazing. But it still needs a lot of shedding before it is useful for live comping. It also is more about taking your comping and solo playing to a new level, not necessarily the first level. It’s a fine place to start, but does it make sense to learn that new material when you haven’t mastered the material you already have? That is up to you to decide. But the Kingstone book won’t help you learn which voices to omit, how to keep tempo, or when to accent and when to lay back. From what I heard, that’s what is lacking.

So yes, shed shell voicings for several weeks even if that doesn’t sound like your teacher. Of course practice other aspects of your playing too. But I guarantee that if you just do that one thing for a month your comping will improve more than delving into any new book or exploring any new concepts.

Keep playing and good luck. (And maybe find yourself a different teacher. It doesn’t sound like his hands off approach is really what works for you).

Thank you for the advice. You’re probably right. However, according to the Barry Harris book, I shouldn’t omit the root, so then again, multiple views.. they make everything harder.


The comping recording of me is only using drop 2, except one of the chords. So according to the Barry Harris technique, in terms of voicing, that would’ve been correct?



Perhaps a study group on the comping course would be helpful. @Fep, you in?

[christianm77]

Right? Is + and? So 4+ is on the and of 4?

Yes

[znerken]

I will put in one last plug for shedding the material, ANY material. I’m no expert, but I’ve been playing for thirty five years. For me it is always hard to start on a new topic. After years of considering myself a pretty good player, I hate that feeling that I’ve suddenly gone backwards and am playing with the musicality of a twelve year old boy someone taught to strum an open G chord. But there is no skipping this step.

What I hear in your recording above all is simply a lack of facility with the material. You are playing full voicings, with iffy sense of tempo, and less than awesome dynamics. I don’t think you lack a conceptual understanding, just time and practice.

You asked for a good reference, and people recommended the Fareed Haque online course. But you say you know all that already, and still you don’t sound like your teacher. Fareed is a monster player and top educator. But he isn’t inventing new material. He’s giving you standard comping concepts. So, without sounding harsh, if you already know the concepts but can’t play them you just need to shed. There is no new concept anyone can offer that will make you good at comping.

Alan Kingstone’s book is really eye opening and amazing. But it still needs a lot of shedding before it is useful for live comping. It also is more about taking your comping and solo playing to a new level, not necessarily the first level. It’s a fine place to start, but does it make sense to learn that new material when you haven’t mastered the material you already have? That is up to you to decide. But the Kingstone book won’t help you learn which voices to omit, how to keep tempo, or when to accent and when to lay back. From what I heard, that’s what is lacking.

So yes, shed shell voicings for several weeks even if that doesn’t sound like your teacher. Of course practice other aspects of your playing too. But I guarantee that if you just do that one thing for a month your comping will improve more than delving into any new book or exploring any new concepts.

Keep playing and good luck. (And maybe find yourself a different teacher. It doesn’t sound like his hands off approach is really what works for you).

Regarding my teacher. Perhaps I should try and come with some constructive feedback. I mean he has studied under great people like Jim Hall, and he knows a lot. I should probably just ask him to end each lesson by giving me more specific tasks. He has been very open about not focusing on technique and stuff, but rather on music itself. We both agree that I can read and find resources on technique easy online.


In the end, my experience with all teachers has been that they sell well known stuff. And by that I mean, most of this stuff is said elsewhere in books and blogs. There’s no secret. Like one of my tasks until next time is to play target notes on each bar through the form. (3 and 7). That’s a very common exercise. I guess what I like about my teacher is that he tells me I suck. Instead of gift wrapping everything. And he never goes easy on me. I feel like I do stuff good at home, then come to him, and suck. Then back home to practice. :-)

[joe2758]

it comes down to the work. any of these tried and true approaches will yield results equal to the work put in. remember this: understanding something doesn’t mean shit.

Barry Harris method isn’t magic, I’m hung up on it because i’ve been shedding it RELENTLESSLY for 3 years. From my perspective it seems like magic, but all it did was make me enthusiastic enough to work harder than i had in the past. does that make sense?

check out the book The War of Art by Steven Pressfield.
Best of luck to you man!

[rlrhett]

Thank you for the advice. You’re probably right. However, according to the Barry Harris book, I shouldn’t omit the root, so then again, multiple views.. they make everything harder.


The comping recording of me is only using drop 2, except one of the chords. So according to the Barry Harris technique, in terms of voicing, that would’ve been correct?



Perhaps a study group on the comping course would be helpful. @Fep, you in?

I don’t think we are understanding each other, and another post probably won’t help. But of all the advice I was hoping to give, I’m not sure where you got that I was suggesting you not play the root while comping. Nor, for that matter, does FH in his course.

Regardless, I’m not advocating for Fareed. Find a pedagogy that works for you. My advice was simply to spend time really learning proper gait by running slowly and methodically —even if you aren’t competitive in any races at first— before you enter the Boston Marathon and compare yourself with the leaders of the race.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[znerken]

I don’t think we are understanding each other, and another post probably won’t help. But of all the advice I was hoping to give, I’m not sure where you got that I was suggesting you not play the root while comping. Nor, for that matter, does FH in his course.

Regardless, I’m not advocating for Fareed. Find a pedagogy that works for you. My advice was simply to spend time really learning proper gait by running slowly and methodically —even if you aren’t competitive in any races at first— before you enter the Boston Marathon and compare yourself with the leaders of the race.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Sorry I was not implying that you said that. I have read and understood everything you have said. I am very grateful. I just ask questions that come to my mind. Sorry if I seem a little ignorant, I just have a lot of questions. Thank you for all your feedback.

[Reg]

Skip the BH approach for a while....you need to get basics down first....
Generally one starts with Root 6th string and rt 5th string voicings... then add rt 4th string.

After you really have those voicings down... (be able to play tunes with out watching neck). You add the chord scale in the position of the chord.... you then will have access to all the notes of that chord and implied extensions...complete note collection.

There are usually different possibilities to what note collections, (extensions), are possible depending on context and what your trying to do, harmonically when comping..... that will become easier later.

When playing chords and voicings.... you'll have common fingers.... reference target notes that help you connect chords,(voicings),
....these are not musical or harmonic things.... they are very physical references.... that will help you develop skill at comping. Your physically connecting chords with common notes and strings with easy movements with least amount of physical movement.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT TECHNICAL SKILLS ON YOUR INSTRUMENT.... the fretboard and fingerings.

I've laid out my approach many times... it works well, my comping skills physically are as good as it gets.... there are other approaches that also work.... but they all start with developing basic fretboard skills.

Here are some basic voicings.... I'm in process of putting together complete collection of organized chords, voicings and styles etc...

[znerken]

So a little update here. What I do for practice here now(at least for now):
1. Use shell chords with and without bass. I change a little. So basically the chords from the truefire course, although I already knew them.
2. Use them on the standard I am currently on

And mostly importantly:
3. Practice the rhythms here 10 Essential Jazz Guitar Chord Rhythms as rhythm is a big part of comping


Feedback?

[don_oz]

This guy talks about ways to practice comping. It's not really about what voicings you play, but where and how you play them.

this guy talks about it too.

They are both really good compers, but have their own sounds. Pasquale sounds like a piano player on the guitar, he sounds like Pasquale. Mike is kind of similar in that respect but he has a different sound too. It depends on what you want to sound like at the end of the day.

[coolvinny]

So a little update here. What I do for practice here now(at least for now):

2. Use them on the standard I am currently on

Feedback?

Looks pretty good.

Make sure you are not relying on a chart while applying to the standard. Once you're comfortable with that, play it in different keys...always without charts though.

Every now and then take a random tune from the real book and practice comping through it from the chart. Like 10 minutes a week. The rest of the time, no charts.

[znerken]

This guy talks about ways to practice comping. It's not really about what voicings you play, but where and how you play them.

this guy talks about it too.

They are both really good compers, but have their own sounds. Pasquale sounds like a piano player on the guitar, he sounds like Pasquale. Mike is kind of similar in that respect but he has a different sound too. It depends on what you want to sound like at the end of the day.

Yes, they sound great. And neither of them use shell voicings :-) My teacher also sound like Pasquale and he never uses shell voicings. But, I guess it doesn’t hurt to have them in the toolbag.

[znerken]

Yes, they sound great. And neither of them use shell voicings :-) My teacher also sound like Pasquale and he never uses shell voicings. But, I guess it doesn’t hurt to have them in the toolbag.

Wow, he really could comp. I think he is really like my teacher. He wants to sound like a piano player, and he basically talked about many of the same things in the class




He also said this :-)

[christianm77]

Without question, my favourite living comper on guitar is Peter Bernstein

His advice is pretty simple. Practice comping. Set the metronome, and try not to repeat yourself.

Peter's harmonic vocabulary consists of many chord forms which are basic and known to most players (unlike Pasquale say) but the way he threads them together is thing that makes it sound like him. In this he is similar in approach to Mike Moreno.

Here's some more advice, with forum member Jordan Klemons: