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Thanks for all the answers. However, I kind of miss a little on the book suggestions. What is considered the golden book on this field? The Barry Harris Harmonic Method?
And perhaps starting here: https://www.amazon.com/Chordability-.../dp/B004X60QI8 together with the book.
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11-23-2018 06:57 PM
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I would say that Barry Harris book is way too advanced for now. I think you need to spend at least a couple of years just developing comping feel and learning tunes.
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Have you really gone through all of Fareed Haque’s course, or are you still on the first chapters? Like all TrueFire courses, there is A LOT of material presented in a rapid fire format. Your brain can listen to ten segments in one sitting, but that isn’t going to give your fingers anything to work with. Spend a week on each segment or two, no matter how basic or boring the first ones are, and your comping will drastically change in the nine months or so it should take you.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Perhaps like 50%.. And I have checked out the headlines of the rest. Haven't been anything about what we have talked about yet. I mean, spending a week playing 3 and 7 of chords?
I absolutely hate when I don't know how to practice something, but I have the time... This is my biggest frustration with jazz.
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That's a good point. Even though I know all the drop 2 and drop 3 for the 7 chords, which I understand is what the book is built on. Originally Posted by coolvinny
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absolutely not too advanced. it IS the golden book, and there are people here who can answer any question you might have. author himself is pretty easy to contact also Originally Posted by znerken
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Originally Posted by joe2758
Could you help me understand the purpose of the whole 6 chord approach? I mean are you to stop thinking of anything related to normal major/minor scales with 7 chords, like most/many people do? If so, won't that crash with thew way I approach scales? I am a little scared of having to change everything I have learned so far, if you know what I mean.
Or are you just supposed to create a map in your head that creates a connection between all chords and 6 chords?Last edited by znerken; 11-24-2018 at 11:29 AM.
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Also, since this is the tune I am currently working on.
Would you consider this poor comping then? It sounds to me like the comper gets in the way of the soloist, and they are also using a very static groove/rythm. Becomes very predictable?
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Here are two books that helped me immensely, though they are all business. Voicings, exercises, examples. The Crowell book uses standards for the examples and exercises. It's available on Steve Herron's excellent web store. The Mel Bay book is on Amazon.
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well that’s like a very heavy-handed sort of ‘4 to the bar’ type comping, personally I would probably try and break up the rhythms a bit, not play a chord on every beat like that. Also try and make the comping a bit less obtrusive, a bit more supportive. Originally Posted by znerken
But I think comping is hard to do well, I think the best way is just to find examples that sound good and try to emulate them. Try and copy the rhythms as much as anything.
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the purpose is to develope movements so that we get away from hitting static chords. The 6th chord thing gets the most attention because it is so cool, but there is way more to it than that. you don’t forget what you already know. it won’t clash with how you solo. you’re not changing everything, you’re learning new stuff. Originally Posted by znerken
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Originally Posted by joe2758
That sounds just like what I need, in a way. Perhaps I should start with the Chordability DVD? That's the same material but in video format right? I have the Harris book.
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you have the alan kingstone barry harris harmony for guitar book? just use that. if you need video sign up at jazzschoolonline.com and watch the alan kingstone videos. you know drop 2 and drop 3 so you are ready to rock.
also watch the things i learned from barry harris videos on youtube. they are free and you can see if it is a good fit for you
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The way this guy plays Ornithology head with Barry concept chords is also pretty cool:
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Jens about Barry Harris approach:
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Yes it’s good for harmonising a melody like that. But you could comp by just using some of those 6th/dim chords he was using. Originally Posted by znerken
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Which often are basic drop 2 Voicings right? Which mean I already know them, I just need to understand how Barry would've used them
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The book will do nothing for your comping feel and is not what you "need" right now. Your problem is rhythm and feel. The BH book is way too advanced for now and I think will actually slow down your development. You can do a lot with so-called static vanilla chords. But it's your choice so whatever you decide, good luck to you. Originally Posted by znerken
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It’s odd, because of the 40 or so segments in the course only the first couple is playing only 3/7. It is, however, the foundation of his approach. From there he goes on to ii-V substitutions, tritones, walking bass lines, extensions, etc. Everybody has their own way of presenting this material, but shell voicing/walking bass/substitutions/extensions is more or less how comping is taught by a huge segment of mainstream jazz educators. Originally Posted by znerken
Spending a week or two comping 3/7 to as many tunes as you can until you totally master it may seem boring. I’m not sure what your technique for mastering new material is, but shedding in that way is how most people are taught. I’m not sure there is a technique that bypasses shedding a foundation.
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My problem is that there seems to be so many different approaches, and I don't know what to follow. You have the following buzz words: Originally Posted by rlrhett
- shell
- Barry harris
- drop 2
- drop 3
- extensions
- groove
- rhythm
- not crashing with soloist
- only color tones
and the list goes on. When my teacher comp I think it doesn't sound like in that truefire course at all.
As I have said earlier, this is what makes jazz guitar so frustrating for me.. I have the time to practice, but there's so much, and there is often no clear road. It often ends up with me putting it to the side, until I can comprehend what to practice.. Much more fun practicing other stuff, where I know what to practice. As I do with comping right now. I HATE when I don't understand something, and that comes from someone with an academic background.
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I'll try and clear it up then
- shell
Just root, 3 and 7 (or 3 and 6 for a 6th chord) - no 5th.
- Barry harris
don't bother until you are strong in the basics
- drop 2
don't need to worry about this yet
- drop 3
This neither
- extensions
Notes above the 7th that you might add to a chord, so any number higher than 7, normally odd, for instnace in a Bbmaj9#11 chord, the extensions are 9 and #11
Don't bother too much with these for now. 7th and 6th chords are fine for now.
- groove
The most important thing. Learn to accurately place beats and off beats at different tempos. Learn the difference between a swung and straight upbeats. Simple repetitive patterns groove more than more interactive styles of comping, and probably a good start point. Must knows:
Straight four - every beat
Charleston - on 1 and 2+
Displaced Charleston - on 3 and 4+
Half time - 1 and 3
Pushes - 4+ and 2+
- rhythm
See groove
- not crashing with soloist
Clashing with soloist - don't get in their way. For instance if I play a 9 when you are playing a b9 in your chord - esp in the same register, will sound BAD.
Therefore, play in a different register to this soloist as much as possible, and don't dick around too much with the aformentioned extensions for now, keeps you safely out of the way where you can't annoy anyone too much.
- only color tones
Color tones = extensions
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Thanks for this, however I knew most of the terms. I just don't know what to practice. Haha
I have already practiced shell Voicings, drop 2 , drop 3 etc. When I comped with my teacher, I only used drop 2 Voicings. He still complained I think rhythm and groove was an important point. However, I think he also was very focused on creating small lines and melodic ideas in the comping. He said my comping was too predictable and boring. <--- this is why I was looking into Barry Harris in the first place.
Your remarks on groove and rhythm looks killer though. Thanks!
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Good advice if you play piano, maybe. Obviously those guys are super advanced. I think better to listen to Russell Malone with Diana Krall and that great recording he did with Roy Hargrove and Jimmy Cobb or the Grant Green with Sonny Red, Herb Ellis with Oscar Peterson, some Peter Bernstein (just among those guys is a wide variety of styles). Go see some local acts and listen to the guitarist. What do you like want don't you like. Originally Posted by znerken
I offer a bit of a contrarian view, its working for me, books have not.
Make up your own chords (you will naturally collect your favourites, that will become you). Work out the inversions on the a to g string and the a to b string, the d to b string and the d to e string, add colour tones and approach chords (listen to Malone how and where does he do that).
Pick any song, pick one position on the neck and comp straight 4 to a bar but do not change positions.
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Well said. There are a lot of approaches to jazz guitar. There is so much material available it can be overwhelming. In fact, it can be a near bottomless abyss, with a single post suggesting years of work. Originally Posted by znerken
A lot of it is seductive. Somebody whose playing you admire recommends, for example, the Barry Harris approach (full disclosure: I know nothing about it, other than that fine players use it). So, there is, naturally, curiosity about the approach. But, it requires an investment of time and focus -- and there are other approaches requiring equal such investments. What do you do?
I confess that there are many posts on here I can't understand and I've probably spent too much time trying to extract the meaning.
Here's something worth remembering: Andres Varady made the cover of GP as a jazz guitarist as a young teenager -- for his playing, not his youth. In the interview he says that he knows absolutely no theory.
Whatever you decide to do to progress on guitar, there is a great player who did it differently.
A good teacher will have an effective approach and it may be important to follow it while being careful not to be distracted from it.
As far as the video .. that was you and your teacher? That's a basic comping skill. Foundational. If you can't do that, you will have trouble doing more complicated things. I'd suggest listening to Gypsy jazz to nail a good 4 to the bar feel.
A more advanced comping approach, requiring a higher level of skill basically has the guitar playing a bass line while sticking and jabbing chord fragments. But, first you have to get 4 to the bar. Next step may be having more movement within 4 to the bar, so every beat is different. Then, after that, playing different rhythms while still implying the groove. Etc etc.
One last point. Guitar duo is a specific musical setting, requiring skills which fit that setting. To get good at it, you have to master those skills. But, maybe you aren't interested in guitar duo. If not, why spend a lot of time focused on it? If you want to always play with a bassist, you'd probably want to learn other comping skills. I'm not saying to ignore it, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of ways to approach it.
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Perhaps, it's a matter of taste. I would really rather an accompanist stay strong and simple if in doubt. Originally Posted by znerken
Thanks for this, however I knew most of the terms. I just don't know what to practice. Haha
I have already practiced shell Voicings, drop 2 , drop 3 etc. When I comped with my teacher, I only used drop 2 Voicings. He still complained I think rhythm and groove was an important point. However, I think he also was very focused on creating small lines and melodic ideas in the comping. He said my comping was too predictable and boring. <--- this is why I was looking into Barry Harris in the first place.
Your remarks on groove and rhythm looks killer though. Thanks!
If the soloist leaves a gap you can do put in moving line stuff, it's a bit of give and take.
Ultimately, the function of the accompanist is to make the soloist sound good. There are various ways to achieve this, and it depends a lot on variables, experience, knowledge and so on but if I am playing with another guitarist, and they play nice simple voicings with good time and are nice and easy to play with, I am not going to complain.
That's what I aim for in my comping. I'm not trying to 'express myself' too much.
When I do and start doing clever-clever stuff, I think it leads to over-comping. And that's all bearing in mind salient points about lead lines, moving lines and so on, that's all good stuff if it's deeply internalised and natural. Imagination and creativity have their places, but to me that's something that builds on a strong foundation.
But if you only know a couple of voicings for each chord, you can still comp effectively, if unimaginatively.
I do't think comping has much to do with voicings. Voicings are just possible colours or tools or whatever. Some of the best compers I know use dead simple voicings. The aim is to make music.
For instance, probably quite a few people on this forum know more voicings than Jim Hall, but Jim Hall is still the best at comping.
Above all, a jazz guitarist should know their function in an ensemble, and listen at all times.
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