-
My first question is I have been learning some altered chord shapes however due to the varied ways you can alter a dominant chord I am curious to know of any standard grips you guys use when confronted by an altered chord? I understand that a lot of it is down to interpretation and what everyone else is playing. However are there any grips that often come up and that you find useful when comping?
My second question is the terminology used. Sometimes a lead sheet with be quite specific in the chord alterations required, other times it will just say "altered". Sometimes it will be a G7#9 which could be an altered scale but is more likely to be diminished harmony, or a G7#5 which is more likely a whole tone harmony I believe? Is this again down to interpretation and I should not get too hung up on the terminology? Generally I have been just seeing what the melody note is and then from there seeing if any alterations besides the stated ones work.
Thanks in advance
-
09-14-2018 10:20 AM
-
Look at what the melody is?
There’s a lot of variation in charts. Some charts write out the melody as an extension of the chord symbol, others don’t bother.
-
G7#9 and G7#5 can open doors into other scales but basically they fall within the domain of the altered scale.
But my thoughts on those two chords from the point of view of traditional bebop is quite different again (they belong to a scale that is a combination between phrygian dominant and Phrygian if you like, which is itself a mode of the combined natural and harmonic minor scale.)
It depends on what sounds you like. But a b5 in there as well and you are in altered scale territory.
-
(In the case of the altered scale those chords have either no 5 or a b5)
-
I really like harmonizing the 6th scale degree of melodic minor for really basic altered voicings in the beginning.
So for D7 voicings, sub C-7b5. Implies D7b9#5. If you learn C-7b5 voicings as a chord-scale with its extensions (nat9, 11, b13), you get entry-level vanilla altered voicings, with pretty familiar fingerings, if you know half diminished voicings already.
Lydian dominant is the other one which is going to be most familiar in terms of fingerings etc, but it's going to sound like it's own thing mostly and not as much like altered, unless you voice things in specific ways. So, that would playing Ab7(9,#11,13) voicings for D7. The 3rd degree of MM gives you the good colors, but is less familiar to most, relative to major diatonic chords.
Learn to harmonize all of MM though, and use Reg's "extended diatonic" approach to organize, and things suddenly become much simpler. Pairs of voicings are often easier and more effective than any single voicing.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-14-2018 at 05:41 PM.
-
I like this kind of organization for basic rootless dominants because it addresses many combinations of both
altered and unaltered dominant notes. For me, using comparative approaches made it much easier to learn
some of the quantity of what's out there.
X X E Bb C Gb
X X E Bb Db Gb
X X E Bb D Gb
X X E Bb D# Gb
X X E Bb C G
X X E Bb Db G
X X E Bb D G
X X E Bb D# G
X X E Bb C G#
X X E Bb Db G#
X X E Bb D G#
X X E Bb D# G#
X X E Bb C A
X X E Bb Db A
X X E Bb D A
X X E Bb D# A
Chords with C and D are not
X X Bb E Gb C
X X Bb E G C
X X Bb E G# C
X X Bb E A C
X X Bb E Gb Db
X X Bb E G Db
X X Bb E G# Db
X X Bb E A Db
X X Bb E Gb D
X X Bb E G D
X X Bb E G# D
X X Bb E A D
X X Bb E Gb D#
X X Bb E G D#
X X Bb E G# D#
X X Bb E A D#
These voicings can be moved also to string sets ADGB and EADG.
-
^^^ I see those like this. Magic decoder ring!
Code:|---|b5-|-5-|#5-|13-| |-R-|b9-|-9-|#9-|---| |---|---|b7-|---|---| |---|-3-|---|---|---| |---|---|---|---|---| |---|---|---|---|---| |---|-R-|b9-|-9-|#9-| |b5-|-5-|#5-|13-|---| |---|---|-3-|---|---| |---|b7-|---|---|---| |---|---|---|---|---| |---|---|---|---|---|
-
Exactly, nice graphic.
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
-
As the others say, it's got a lot to do with melody. But there are certain shapes I use automatically (depending on the sound I want).
I don't necessarily play the root. In a band situation it's not always necessary because of the bass or keyboard.
Most of these shapes can be worked out for oneself anyway just by jiggling the basic shape around.
So - G7 - 3x3433 - reduced to xx3433
#5 - xx3443
b9 - xx3434
#9 - xx3436 or xx3466
b5 - 3x342x
#5b9 - xx3444
b5b9 - xx3424
b5#9 - xx5666
Etc. There are the 9 and 13 variations - i.e. 9b5 - xx3223 and 13b9 - xx3454
That's a 6th string root chord, moveable, of course, and playable on the inside strings, but the same idea can be applied to 5th string root chords, i.e. D7. They're not hard to figure out. And you don't have to play all the notes.
-
P.S. I forgot, there's also all the inversions of those chords too.
-
Yeah I think just learn where the notes are by taking a simple dominant chord, working out what the notes are and moving notes around. That’s how I did it.
-
It's cool too understandings things multiple ways.
For anyone who hasn't done it, I would just say this about learning melodic minor voicings as an approach to understanding altered as an entity on the entire fretboard: It gives you so much more than just altered DOMINANTS. It gives you different ways to play on almost EVERY chord type used in jazz.
Once you know one application, you basically get all of the others for free, and if you're using actual MM as your template, you also automatically know what works MELODICALLY without having to think.
It's very difficult to apply this to guitar using traditional methods of guitarists in my opinion. I personally think we do it wrong, but there are very good reasons why keyboardists and horn players feel like melodic minor is important ....and very good reasons why they CHOOSE to think that way rather than simply "altering" mixolydian. In the end, you should be able to see it both ways of course, just like you should be able to think parallel or relative minor. but we usually begin with one and then learn the other.
All of the above is true in similar ways for harmonic minor as well. If you do this the right way, this is anything but wasted time and over-analyzing. All this material is valuable for understanding basic harmony in jazz. It enables you to see and hear entire minor chord progressions much more easily and UNDERSTAND them beyond just memorizing root movement etc.
-
i use 7b5 or min6 for “plain” altered and then play around with them from there
-
If the chord is say G7alt in the context of a ii V I ...
One of the things I have practiced is using Abmelmin (7th mode of that is Galt). I have the usual voicings created by stacking thirds, eg Abminmaj, Bbsusb9 Cmaj7#5 etc.
I also practiced voicings in stacked fourths. I'd start with xx3344 and then move that voicing through the Abmelmin scale. That gives 4 grips. You can do the same thing starting with any group of notes within Abmelmin.
All of these voicings are interchangeable. They don't all sound the same, and you will like some more than others, but they'll all work without sounding like a clam.
One example: this grip xx6887 will work anywhere Abmelmin Galt etc will work.
-
Thanks this is sort of my approach at the moment but could to have some confirmation! I am really intrigued by how the altered notes open doors into surprising approaches in my playing! Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Thanks for the interesting and helpful thoughts. But can I ask what is Reg's "extended diatonic" approach? Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
-
Originally Posted by bako
Great I will try these out thanks a lot!
-
Thanks Rags, helpful as always!! I have added these to my learning sheet to try out Originally Posted by ragman1
-
This is very interesting, however can you recommend me where to start with exploring your approach? I know MM and HM well on the fret board and use the chords quite often however is there a book or pdf that goes more into what you are talking about please? Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
-
Not just to try, but understand what they're doing, how the notes are working. That's much more important than just copying them. Then you can apply it yourself to almost anything. Originally Posted by Babaluma
Thanks Rags, helpful as always!! I have added these to my learning sheet to try out
-
When thinking about alt7 chords in the context of minor II-V-I (or without the I even), I rather focus on the m7b5 and how to move it's individual voices over the passing alt scale.
There are a few ways to help keeping it simple. The easiest would be perhaps just figuring out the voices of that m7b5 chord(and its inversions if you ever have the time) - what voices can be moved -up or down? how much? - and which can stay put to construct the next passing alt7 chord...
so, when not doing anything hip or exotic and have no clue about the alt scale yet.
the m7b5 chord degrees:
1st can move half step up or down, cannot stay put
7th same
3rd can stay put, can go up or down whole step
5th can stay put, can go half step down or whole step up
works a bit like this:
alt.mp3 - Google Drive
When moving those around, you should get nice fresh sounding dominant chords. Needs experimentation. I did this a long time ago before digging into alt scale(which would be the proper way of course) and many of those voicings are still with me.Last edited by emanresu; 09-17-2018 at 08:11 AM.
-
Yea (Babaluma)... It's not really interpretation, maybe what one chooses or personal choice. But when one uses altered chords.... they have very harmonic implications.
Many approach as somewhat... the embellished approach....Ornamentation.... they use functional harmony, Maj / Min functional Harmomy, which is based on Major... Ionian diatonic Functional organization..... anyway then use ornamentation or embellishment as access device for creating and adding notes to chords .... again Standard western maj/min functional harmony musical organization.
Like with blue notes, approach notes....Auxiliary tones and Nonharmonic tones...... they/we use a contrapuntal approach which is organized by where they happen, weak or strong attack... which creates a list of terms....(auxiliary, nonharmonic, passing, grace, appoggiaturas, mordents etc...) describing how they work contrapuntally......
... check out Piston's or any of the standard Traditional Harmony bibles.
The bottom line is... This approach misses much of how jazz harmony works.... when I use the term Vanilla etc... that's what I'm talking about.
I'm not saying it's wrong... obviously, it just misses way too many possibilities for how to musically organize different approaches for performing and understanding Jazz.
Anyway..... if you choose to comp using Altered chord based on modal organization... you also have functional chord patterns.
More choices beside Functional Movement based on Ionian. It takes more than me giving a brief explanation here to understand etc...
The short version.... the notes you chose to alter or add.... come from a harmonic organization. Harmonic organization is ...how notes react to each other and which notes control those reactions... all in an organized context. (Not voice leading. Voice leading is how you choose to realize).... those reactions result is harmonic, chord movements that define Function.
Simple example... / A-7 D7 / Gmaj7.../ Sub dominant to Dominant to Tonic. Maj/Min functional harmony Context Ionian.
Same chords... / A-7 D7 / A-7 Gmaj7(G#-7) / A-7 / Now using Dorian Modal Functional Organization .... A-7 becomes the Tonic and D7 and Gmaj7 become .... Dominant like function chords...... Don't get hung up on the term Dominant. I'm EXPANDING the use of the term Dominant by changing the CONTEXT.... The chord with the least amount of tension, or perception of wanting to Move in this Dorian Context.... is A-7, the new I chord and D7 and Gmaj7 become chords that want to move or return to A-7. This is very Vanilla.... and there is much more etc.... But this is simple example of Modal concepts, and the use of EXPANDING common musical terms.
So how I approach comp using Alterd chords is ,
1) Basic Functional Harmony.... which uses Harmonic Min. and any other embellishment or added notes.... symmetrical etc... all using Ionian Musical Organization for chord movement function or perception of movement.
2) Modal concepts of chord movement etc... I generally only use Dorian and MM. But sometimes, Lydian and phrygian... Blues etc...
Example... G7alt going to Cmaj...(or Cmin) I use different chord patterns ... but they have harmonic organization, Modal style organization.
So if you follow Matt's line above...
G7alt.... generally implies The chord constructed on 7th degree of MM. G7alt would be that Chord constructed on 7th degree of Abmm.
What gets complicated here is.... there are almost always many harmonic and melodic musical organizations going on simultaneously. Not to mentions... Rhythmic organizational concepts.
So trying to keep it somewhat simple.... one example could be.... A blusy I V7 tune .. Key is Cmaj and the V7 chord is altered
Sp Cmaj7 or / C6/9.... / G7alt. / Simple right. and yea during the melody... one would obviously use chords that work with the melody, harmonically, melodically and rhythmically. There are always more that one layer of musical organizations going on... so sure you would play G7altered chords and voicings along with rhythmic attacks that work with and support melody.
So I'm pulling from MM for my note choices, and using Sub V or tritone subs. And I would also be EXPANDING my use of Subs for creating motion and feel....
So G7alt .... sub is Db13#11 .... Expanding that Db7 sub.... the Diatonic related sub would be F-7b5.... which is the chord up a diatonic 3rd of the Reference chord... Db7 up a diatonic 3rd is F-7b5.... and if I keep the MM note source .... there would be a nat. 9, F-7b5 9.
There are many sub approaches.... adding the related II- , subbing Chord Patterns or cycles... example...
/ C6/9 ............./ G7alt............../
/ C6/9............../ E-7b5 A7alt D-7b5 G7alt /
/ C6/9............../ E7alt A7alt D7alt G7alt /
/ C6/9............../ Db13#11........./
/C6/9...............Ab-9 Db13 #11 /
I can go on and open as many possibilities as the context allows and my skills allow.
So the next thing.... how one actually comps.... what yo actually play, the chords, the voicings.
Generally you use melodic lead lines and voice chords below. So the melodic line would compliment and support the head or soloist rhythmically, melodically and harmonically. A counter line, a groove line or a backing type of line that helps organize the chords below.
The melodic line supports the chords.... or the chords could supports your melodic line... doesn't really matter which approach you choose... it's organized to work in the context.
I generally always play chord patterns.... common root motion patterns that support and imply the context , and I use Diatonic and expanded Diatonic functional chord movement. Which can also use Modal guidelines
I'll notate out some typical examples of what chords... or grips are the result of what I might play for Altered chords.
-
Great post. Would love to see those voicings! :-) Originally Posted by Reg
Reg, I was wondering I could get your feedback on my most recent stab in the dark at what I would otherwise call "too much altered", recorded in an attempt to get a take for our solo guitar thread. It strongly brings to mind your previous conversations about "mixing references" or otherwise being not as organized as overall approach.
Anyway, there's a lot of throwing bits at the wall on this, and I would really be interested in how to better organize it under one umbrella ...or at least fewer umbrellas. :-) Thanks always.
-
Another point:
On the whole, unless I was bloody sure of what the soloist was going to do, or I had a little break in which to do something fun - or I needed to support a less confident singer with the melody notes in my comping - I wouldn't comp too many alterations on dominant chords. Simple chords are fine most of the time.
However - in general I tend to think in lead lines - for instance a simple example:
4 x 5 5 3 x - Abmaj7#11
3 x 3 4 4 x - G7#5
x 3 5 4 5 x - Cmaj7
The top melody line is obviously chromatic and going up, so the second chord is G7#5 by the voice leading.
Or:
x x 8 10 10 10 - Bbmaj7
x x 9 10 9 11 - G7b13b9
x x 8 8 8 8 - Cm7
x x 7 8 7 10 - F13b9
In this example the melody line is diatonic, but the inner voice leading is more chromatic.
In these case the progression is likely to 'make waves' against the soloist or box them in.... at least that's the way it seems.
-
I think that's where the harmonic rhythm he discussed above becomes really important. You can almost always get away with Db7 or B7 on beat 4 when approaching a C chord. Those can be looked at as "altered" approaches basically, but the main factor is the rhythm. They basically convey "C" more than they they do dominant if they're played on beat 4. The same is largely true for the weak side of harmonic rhythm for dominant generally as well. Altered on the weak side is heard as being basically inside and analogous to a half step approach etc. Originally Posted by christianm77
Reply With Quote
Thomastik-Infeld Jazz Swing 112
Today, 02:35 PM in For Sale