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  1. #1

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    I have a very simple question which I hope someone can clarify in basic language. Can a minor vi chord function as a subdominant?

    I was under the impression that in the major key IV or ii can work as subdominants while the ii diminished or iv in a minor key.

    I then read somewhere that a vi chord in a minor scale can be used as a subdominant (it was actually written as VI as if major) but without any explanation. Is this simply an error or an interesting function I was unaware of?

    To be honest I am still slightly confused as to the continuing definitions of the functionality of minor scale chords, for example the v is normally replaced with a V7 so the v in a minor scale is no long a dominant chord. So what is a minor v function?

    Be aware any complex theory will blow my mind so any in a nutshell explanations? Thanks a lot

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  3. #2

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    Yes any chord(s) can have subdominant function..... function is determined by relationship to a reference.
    Ragman's explanation is from old school Maj/Min functional harmony... which could be cool, just not with jazz harmony. Even traditional musical theory has expanded use and definition of Function in the last few centuries.

    Simple example... That A-7 goes to D7.... it's not just what actually happens in harmony.... it's also what's implied.

    When you get down to what subdominant function is.....it implies and creates the perception of a type of harmonic movement. When you get past basic Ionian or major harmony.... and expand the basic concepts of Function... Function becomes that perception of Power that creates motion or sustain.

    If you want understand what and how to expand traditional usage and definitions of Function start with basic... check out,
    Harmonic functions – Open Music Theory ,
    Then click on "Style and tendency", then try and get through Schoenberg's Structural Functions Of Harmony. Then some Lukas Foss ... Then read some of the many contemporary composer's publications... like Leon Dallin and other smaller college connections. Now your ready to expand basic concepts into Jazz common practice.


    When one says subdominant minor... your generally implying chords derived from Borrowing, traditional Harmony...or Modal Interchange, Jazz Harmony... using parallel or relative relationships. Chords from using those harmonic concepts.

  4. #3

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    In the major key the chords are broken into these three groups
    Tonic family - Ima, IIImi, VImi
    Subdominant family - IVma, IImi
    Dominant family - Vma, VIIº

    In the minor key it's slightly different.
    Tonic family - Imi, bIIIma
    Subdominant family - IVmi, IIº, bVIma
    Dominant family - Vmi, bVIIma (or Vma, VIIº if you borrow from the harmonic minor scale)

    The bVIma chord (in the key of Cmi this would be Ab) no longer has a functional relationship with the tonic. The Ab root note clashes with the Cmi harmony. It is naturally closer to the IV mi (Fmi) chord in sound and structure.

    I hope this helps.

  5. #4

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    Yes

  6. #5

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    I chord can be subdominant

  7. #6

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    Well, is a IVMaj7 subdominant?

    So can vi be a rootless IVMaj7?
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 06-23-2018 at 12:22 PM.

  8. #7

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    You'll find chord vi as a dominant-function in old Scottish music. This isn't answering your question, but perhaps someone will find it of interest. Not just Scottish music, but that's where I come across it most often. It happens when the melody is pentatonic, say CDEGAC - there is no B natural, so a G Major chord is not possible. In that case, the Am chord seems to function as a dominant. Just thought I'd mention it!

  9. #8

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    Everyone needs to reread the OP's question. He's not talking about secondary dominants. He doesn't need to read Schoenberg's Structural Functions Of Harmony.

    He asked about the VI chord in the minor scale which in the natural minor IS A MAJOR CHORD. It naturally works as a subdominant. That's basic Harmony Theory. Let's not confuse the guy with a lot of stuff that is not relevant to his question.

    Written with only the kindest of intentions of course.

  10. #9

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    Duh, yes, fair enough.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Everyone needs to reread the OP's question. He's not talking about secondary dominants. He doesn't need to read Schoenberg's Structural Functions Of Harmony.

    He asked about the VI chord in the minor scale which in the natural minor IS A MAJOR CHORD. It naturally works as a subdominant. That's basic Harmony Theory. Let's not confuse the guy with a lot of stuff that is not relevant to his question.

    Written with only the kindest of intentions of course.
    It wasn't clear to me that he was only talking about minor tonality, because neither his title nor first question were.


    VI chords:
    vi in Major
    vidim or bVI in minor

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Everyone needs to reread the OP's question. He's not talking about secondary dominants. He doesn't need to read Schoenberg's Structural Functions Of Harmony.

    He asked about the VI chord in the minor scale which in the natural minor IS A MAJOR CHORD. It naturally works as a subdominant. That's basic Harmony Theory. Let's not confuse the guy with a lot of stuff that is not relevant to his question.

    Written with only the kindest of intentions of course.
    OK great so the VI in minor can be used as a subdominant and so in general major chords can be also used as subdominants?

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    No problem.

    When the minor chords in a major key are changed to dominants (in C that's Dm, Em, Am into D7, E7, A7) they are called secondary dominants. I think it's possible that you misread or misremembered that as subdominant.

    No chance of resurrecting the thing you said you read, is there?

    Here we go, where is says: Application:

    Neapolitan Chords | Guitar Lessons @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    OK great so the VI in minor can be used as a subdominant and so in general major chords can be also used as subdominants?
    Please refer to my first post on this. It laid out which chords are thought of as subdominant in the major and minor keys.

    No, in general major chords are not by their nature subdominant. The IVma and IImi chords in the major scale and the IVmi, IIdim, and bVIma are subdominant in the minor scale.

    The article you linked to regarding Neapolitan chords is using the term subdominant in its common period form (pre 20th C)to mean the chord that goes before the dominant. In modern harmony the Neapolitan chord is more commonly thought of as a Tritone substitution of the Vma chord and thus would more likely fall into the dominant category and not subdominant.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    OK great so the VI in minor can be used as a subdominant and so in general major chords can be also used as subdominants?
    No. I wouldn't necessarily make that a RULE or anything.

    bVImaj7 in a minor key is the same chord as IVmaj7 in its relative major.

    So Fmaj7 is IV in C and bVI in A minor...

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  16. #15

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    In modern harmony the Neapolitan chord is more commonly thought of as a Tritone substitution of the Vma chord and thus would more likely fall into the dominant category and not subdominant.
    Db7 (bII7) is a tri-tone sub of G7 because of common tones F-Cb ..... B-F

    Dbma7 is closely linked to Fm and therefore a minor IV subdominant sound.

    Either way it resolves nicely to the I chord.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    I have a very simple question which I hope someone can clarify in basic language. Can a minor vi chord function as a subdominant?
    In a nutshell, yes; vi is a very common substitute for IV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    I was under the impression that in the major key IV or ii can work as subdominants while the ii diminished or iv in a minor key.
    This is also true. However, these rules you cite are the rules of functional diatonic harmony. Jazz can work this way or it can use a whole 'nother bag of tricks for producing this effect on the listener.

    There are a few notational issues clouding this discussion. The ability to use, understand, and write Roman numeral analysis correctly requires that you know the assumptions on which it is based. I'm going to try to explain this simply and briefly, essentially condensing a couple years of university-level harmony to a short description. For the sake of brevity, a lot will be simplified or omitted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    I then read somewhere that a vi chord in a minor scale can be used as a subdominant (it was actually written as VI as if major) but without any explanation. Is this simply an error or an interesting function I was unaware of?
    This is not an error, it's standard Roman numeral analysis. To paraphrase Richard Rodgers, "Let's start from the very beginning; it's as easy as I, ii, iii"

    My dry little joke indicates an important facet of Roman numeral analysis: uppercase means major and lowercase means minor. "VI" means "major chord that has the sixth scale degree as its root." And "vi" means "minor chord that has the sixth scale degree as its root."

    In order to understand when to use vi or VI, we need to understand that any key signature defines a certain set of notes, and that you can build chords in that key by using those notes. You have probably heard that A minor is the relative minor of C major. Both of these keys share the same key signature. That is, the key signature that has no sharps and no flats is the key signature of C major or A natural minor. The only difference between the two is whether the melodic and harmonic choices of the composer cause the listener to HEAR "C major" or "A minor."

    The major key signature defines the notes that make the major scale starting from a particular root note. For example, if you have no sharps and no flats in your key signature, you have the notes C D E F G A B, which define the C major scale. You also have the notes A B C D E F G, which define the A natural minor scale. What the listener hears is a function of which notes are emphasized to create a sense of whether A or C is the "home" note of the key.

    If you think of C as the first degree of this major scale, D as the second scale degree, and so on, the sixth scale degree is A. We can build a triad by stacking thirds from the root note, using notes in the key signature: vi would be A C E. This is an A minor triad and Roman numeral analysis would notate it as vi in the key of C major. This pattern is true for any major key: vi is always minor if you use ONLY notes in the key signature to construct the chord.

    Thus, "minor vi" is redundant. We already know that the chord is minor because it is written lowercase, and we already know that vi is minor in ANY major key.

    Let's look at this example again using A as the root note (or "home" note) of the same key signature. Avoiding any jazz tricks that could be used to imply some other sonority, this scale A B C D E F G has the "minor" sound instead of the "major" sound of C D E F G A B. **What the listener hears** is the ONLY difference between major and relative natural minor key signatures. For this example, let's assume that the listener hears the key of A minor.

    If you think of A as the first degree of this minor scale, B as the second scale degree, and so on, the sixth scale degree is F. We build a triad by stacking thirds from the root note, using notes in the key signature: that would be F A C. This is an F major triad and we would notate this as VI in Roman numeral analysis. This pattern is true for any **natural minor** key: VI is always major if you use ONLY notes in the key signature to construct the chord. (The chord quality is different for harmonic minor and melodic minor, but we won't explore that now.)

    This is where some of your confusion (and some incorrect notation) comes in.
    - In major keys, when using ONLY notes in the key signature, vi is minor. Always. Therfore, if you write VI in the analysis of a major-key piece of music you are describing an out-of-key chord that MUST contain an accidental that is NOT in the key signature. For example, writing VI in the key of C major means A major, not the naturally occurring vi chord of A minor.
    - In the relative minor key of that major key (the **natural minor**) VI is major. Always. Therfore, if you write vi in the analysis of a minor-key piece of music you are describing an out-of-key chord that MUST contain an accidental that is NOT in the key signature. For example, writing vi in the key of A minor means F minor, not the naturally occurring VI chord of F major.
    - Note that the interval between the first and sixth scale degrees differs according to whether the key is major or minor. In major keys, the sixth scale degree is a major sixth up from the first scale degree; in our C major example, the interval between C and A is major sixth. However, in natural minor keys, the sixth scale degree is a MINOR sixth up from the first scale degree; in our A natural minor example, the interval between A and F is a minor sixth. This difference is a function of the notes that the key signature specifies.
    - Roman numeral analysis is based on the set of intervals and chords that the key defines. This is where a lot of people get into trouble with Roman numeral analysis, because they haven't studied and internalized the implied set of intervals and chords that all key signatures specify. Meaningful/correct Roman numeral analysis requires being mindful of the scale degrees of the current key. For example, consider that in a minor key bVI is the same scale degree as v. Example: the sixth scale degree in A minor is F; flatting that is E natural. If you use only notes in the key signature (ABCDEFG) to build a chord from E, you get E G B, which is E minor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    To be honest I am still slightly confused as to the continuing definitions of the functionality of minor scale chords, for example the v is normally replaced with a V7 so the v in a minor scale is no long a dominant chord. So what is a minor v function?
    OK, so now we know that vi is not VI, and why. What about v and V? Again, lowercase vs uppercase is significant in Roman numeral analysis, and the difference between v and V is a function of whether the key is major or minor.

    In C major, the fifth scale degree is G; if we build a chord from that note using only notes in the key signature, we get G B D, which is a G major triad. In Roman numeral notation, this is V in the key of C major.

    In the relative minor of A natural minor, the fifth scale degree is E. If we build a chord from that note using only notes in the key signature, we get E G B, which is an E minor triad. In Roman numeral notation, this is v in the key of A minor.

    You can write music in a minor key that uses v as the dominant-function chord, and it will work OK, especially for a modern listener who is used to hearing this sort of harmonic motion in jazz and rock. But back in the days of Bach, this wasn't so common and it didn't really sound so correct to the listeners of that time, so the idea of harmonic minor was introduced. Harmonic minor sharps the seventh scale degree of natural minor; thus, the G natural of A natural minor becomes G# in A harmonic minor. This changes the v chord to a V chord; for example, the E minor v chord (E G B) of A natural minor becomes E major (E G# B) in A harmonic minor.

    Everything we've talked about so far is functional diatonic harmony; essentially, it's key-signature harmony that follows a more restrictive set of rules than jazz does. Roman numeral analysis is the same for any kind of harmony, but the ability to use, understand, and write Roman numeral analysis correctly requires that you know the assumptions on which this "shorthand" is based. All of those assumptions come from diatonic harmony. There's about another 150 years of music history and chromatic harmony on which jazz is based. We're skipping that today ;-)

    I hope that this helped without getting too deep. If you REALLY want to understand theory, take coursework from an instructor who will teach you IN SOUND what all the theoretical constructs mean. If you can't hear it, you can't understand it. Conversely, if you can understand what you hear, then you can analyze it theoretically. The rules of harmony are VERY consistent. If you don't understand something, you are probably missing some info or something was not presented to you correctly.

    One of my favorite teachers used to say "Theory is artificial talent." By this, he meant that Bach had so much talent that he was able to come up with highly musical ideas without the basis of the rules we now know as music theory; in fact, Bach was the first composer to codify many of those rules for the rest of us. We can now study harmony and theory (and steal Bird solos) to boost our level of musicality artificially. I hope you find those GREAT teachers who help you to understand music and execute your creative ideas. I hope you find the study of harmony to be a fascinating journey that is its own reward. That's why all of us are jazz players: we are harmony freaks. We love to play with colors and musical ideas. The analysis is a tool for understanding those ideas, not an end in itself.
    Last edited by starjasmine; 06-23-2018 at 10:32 PM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1

    In A harmonic minor the iv chord is Dm and the VI is F.

    This is closer, but still inaccurate.

    There is no such key as harmonic minor. It is simply minor.
    In a minor key, if the six chord is major in quality then it's bVI, not VI.
    bVI is from the natural minor. We don't need harmonic minor unless we want a raised 7th with the flat 6th.


    I recommend chapter 4 from this book. It covers the subdominant function in minor key harmony.

    The Berklee Book of Jazz Harmony: Joe Mulholland, Tom Hojnacki: 0884088919887: Amazon.com: Books

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    This is closer, but still inaccurate.

    There is no such key as harmonic minor. It is simply minor.
    In a minor key, if the six chord is major in quality then it's bVI, not VI.
    bVI is from the natural minor. We don't need harmonic minor unless we want a raised 7th with the flat 6th.


    I recommend chapter 4 from this book. It covers the subdominant function in minor key harmony.

    The Berklee Book of Jazz Harmony: Joe Mulholland, Tom Hojnacki: 0884088919887: Amazon.com: Books
    Sheesh.

    Minor is minor. Sure.

    But bVI is from natural minor ONLY? Really? Whatever. If we really want to be schmucks about all this, we have to argue additionally that natural minor "isn't really minor" anyway. It's a mode, Aeolian. Really has to have dominant chord, but seriously? we want to have that overly pedantic conversation?

    As if anybody didn't know what he was talking about.... The bVI is the same in both forms anyway.

    This is why people hate theory conversations.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Sheesh.

    Minor is minor. Sure.

    But bVI is from natural minor ONLY? Really? Whatever. If we really want to be schmucks about all this, we have to argue additionally that natural minor "isn't really minor" anyway. It's a mode, Aeolian. Really has to have dominant chord, but seriously? we want to have that overly pedantic conversation?

    As if anybody didn't know what he was talking about.... The bVI is the same in both forms anyway.

    This is why people hate theory conversations.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
    Oh don't be such a diva Matt. You always like to have the last word of course, but the fact is I was just trying to help with some accuracy - and an excellent text reference for that matter! Chapter 4 really hits on this topic quite well, and in the jazz context of course (I took the liberty not to cover all of western music history given that this is a jazz forum, doncha know).

    And nothing against ragman1 but several of his posts were confusing the matter, including the last one.

    Simply stated, bVI refers to the minor sixth interval from the tonic, while VI and vi refer to the major sixth interval from the tonic. From there we build our chord, and the quality is defined by the tonality/key.

    This is theory. Terms and concepts matter. If people don't like music theory then they can go study chemistry. The only problem is, theory will be encountered there as well. It is inescapable.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Oh don't be such a diva Matt. You always like to have the last word of course, but the fact is I was just trying to help with some accuracy - and an excellent text reference for that matter! Chapter 4 really hits on this topic quite well, and in the jazz context of course (I took the liberty not to cover all of western music history given that this is a jazz forum, doncha know).

    And nothing against ragman1 but several of his posts were confusing the matter, including the last one.

    Simply stated, bVI refers to the minor sixth interval from the tonic, while VI and vi refer to the major sixth interval from the tonic. From there we build our chord, and the quality is defined by the tonality/key.

    This is theory. Terms and concepts matter. If people don't like music theory then they can go study chemistry. The only problem is, theory will be encountered there as well. It is inescapable.
    So you addressed everything except what I actually was talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    bVI is from the natural minor. We don't need harmonic minor unless we want a raised 7th with the flat 6th.
    both natural and harmonic minors.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    This is closer, but still inaccurate.

    There is no such key as harmonic minor. It is simply minor.
    Correct in the sense that there is no key signature that indicates harmonic minor. For example G# is not in the key signature of a piece that is written in A harmonic minor. The G# is added as an accidental as necessary.

    In common practice, though, minor keys are harmonic minor unless you're reading standard notation that says otherwise.

    Now, these are the rules of functional harmony; jazz may or may not follow these rules, so there is not much reason to split these hairs, except for trying to head off the confusion that incorrect analysis causes to those who do not have the theory background to recognize the errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    In a minor key, if the six chord is major in quality then it's bVI, not VI.
    Incorrect both in terms of root note and the rationale for why the chord quality is major. Please see my previous post regarding the difference between the sixth scale degree of natural minor key vs. major key.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    bVI is from the natural minor.
    This is an example of describing minor keys in terms of alterations to parallel major keys. It's good for nothing but confusing people. A minor key and its relative major share the same key signature. Everything else follows from that. In minor keys, the sixth scale degree is VI not bVI. Describing the sixth scale degree of A minor as the flatted sixth of A major is as unhelpful as trying to describe the sixth degree of A major as the augmented sixth of A minor. If that terminology does not immediately set off alarm bells, it should, because an augmented sixth chord is a special kind of chord in chromatic functional harmony.

    This well-regarded book covers minor keys in excruciating detail; I can't quote a chapter because I no longer have a copy.

    Materials and Structure of Music, Volume II: William B. Christ: 9780135604335: Amazon.com: Books

    Please take all of this with the best of intentions. Not putting anyone down, just trying to clarify some oft-confused details.

  23. #22

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    Dear Babaluma,

    You shouldn't have asked, you really shouldn't...


  24. #23

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    Natural, Melodic, Harmonic minor are scales not keys. There is no "we are in A harmonic minor" because minor key compositions borrow liberally from all three scales - and others - as they see fit. But - this was about subdominant function.

    For jazz harmony in particular:

    In major, the half step dissonance between 3 and 4 creates the sonic contrast necessary to define the subdominant sound as distinct from tonic and dominant. However in minor keys the interval between b3 and 4 is a whole step, so instead the b6 scale degree in the Aeolian scale provides the necessary contrast.

    "In minor key harmony, the natural minor scale is the primary source for subdominant chords" (not the only source). Chords that contain the b6 as a primary chord tone - and do not contain the leading tone - are mostly responsible for the subdominant minor sound. This results in more subdominant options in minor than in major.

    IImi7b5, IVmi7, bVIMaj7,
    or
    IImi7b5 (11, b13), IVmi7 (9,11,13), bVIMaj7 (9, #11, 13)

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    This is an example of describing minor keys in terms of alterations to parallel major keys. It's good for nothing but confusing people. A minor key and its relative major share the same key signature. Everything else follows from that. In minor keys, the sixth scale degree is VI not bVI. Describing the sixth scale degree of A minor as the flatted sixth of A major is as unhelpful as trying to describe the sixth degree of A major as the augmented sixth of A minor. If that terminology does not immediately set off alarm bells, it should, because an augmented sixth chord is a special kind of chord in chromatic functional harmony.
    At the very least, this isn't a consensus view. Probably more the opposite in jazz circles. Jazzers tend to look at things differently, but even outside of jazz the intervallic spelling seems to be more accepted than diatonic minor. Roman numeral analysis - Wikipedia

    Bert Ligon uses the intervallic spellings (accidentals) in his Jazz Theory Resources theory volume.

    Far from being more confusing, I personally find the intervallic spellings to be very clarifying, for simplicity's sake and also in terms of disambiguation. Which is easier to say,? "VI from minor" or "bVI"? I guess it doesn't matter, in the end, what one personally prefers, but it's confusing to read conflicting opinions adamantly described as being "wrong". At the very least, a conservative stance would be "either".

    These types of discussions often devolve into classical-oriented musicians arguing over jazz theory conventions. At a certain point we have to accept the genre for what it is. Lower case numerals for minor chords and classical roman numeral notation of things like secondary dominants just aren't the same with jazzers, at least not as a rule. The nature of the music makes the latter impractical, and tradition demands at least a certain amount of acceptance of the former.

    It's a jazz forum after all.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 06-24-2018 at 07:07 AM.

  26. #25
    Ha ha this is all great stuff I am learning so much!