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New to me!!! what on earth is a /X chord? So lets say the progression is written as Ebmin /D /Db .Is this Ebmin then Ebmin with a D in the bass and then Ebmin with a Db in the bass?
Will
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03-21-2018 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
That's exactly what it is. It's a chord over a bass note! I find that most of the time, this is used as a tool to create a smoother stepwise bassline between chords. Stepwise basslines are generally very strong, along with basslines moving in 4th or 5th motion.
Is that from a specific tune?
After having Ebmin then /D and /Db, I would bet the next chord would be a C half diminished, or maybe an Ab7/C or something else with a C in the bass, since it would continue the stepwise downward motion.
The other common usage for slash chords is for outlining certain type of dominant sounds. For example, F/Ab would be sort of like an Ab13b9 chord, with the F triad outlining the 13(F), b9(A), and 3rd(C) of the chord.
Gb/Ab would be like an Ab9sus chord, outlining the b7(Gb), 9th(Bb) and 11(Db)
Hope that helps a bit!
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Ahh thanks makes sense . Tune is a transcription of Wes - Round Midnight and yep the next chord is Cm7b5 .
I will have to explore slash chords in relation to dominants I like the idea of having access to upper extensions with simple devices - thanks!
Will
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Well that’s very much a Wes trick - playing F maj7 on G7 for instance.
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Yea Slash chords... have two functions...
1) a specific voicing...
2) a moving line, (bass or anywhere)
So the changes are really just... Ebmin. Bb7 Ebmin Ab7 .... Cbmaj Bb7 Ebmin
So if your using a Line Cliche Eb D Db C B Bb...Eb The line is being used to imply changes melodically.
You still need to actually know what the changes are... what type of harmonic movement is implied, the functional thing. Generally you don't just play the same voicings over and over.... or maybe you do.
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THere are also non functional applications for slash chords, specific ways to use them to control tension within a moving line, but if we're talking Wes lines and closer adherence to the given changes, then maybe it's not the place to discuss these.
David
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That sound interesting David... so what do you mean by... non functional. Pedal like applications etc...
Reg
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Yeah. It's shorthand for: Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
Ebmin - Ebmin/D - Ebmin/Db
Once understood, it's easier to read/write/fit into the score etc. Also, in it's fully written out form, you'll notice that there's almost a visual implication that you would play the full Ebmin chord for each new bass note as well, when very often in actual practice you'd just be sustaining the chord and moving that one voice. Simply a way of notating the one element which changes.
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When I'm soloing, I'm always making decisions of how much of a piece to work with, and how much to rip out and replace, like renovating a house or pruning a tree, heh heh. So I see functional harmony as working with the existing space of the house, respecting the load bearing walls and working within the changes. In that way, the harmony exists to be interpreted functionally, resolution points through dominant chords, take a major chord indication and use slash chords to move a line cliche over the given triadic chord, maybe change the voicing for variety but largely using the bass note to add movement to the existing harmony. Originally Posted by Reg
Now if I'm doing an extensive remodeling of the harmony, I might take an entire tonal phrase, or even several systems and decide the dominant chord point where I'll rejoin the structure of the piece. That gives me an entire non functional space where I am reharmonizing according to a different set of "shaping forces" as Toch would say. Slash chords seen as hybrid constructions of triads over bass notes serve this very well.
Look at a triad over the 5th of the triad. Very consonant. Not terribly inspiring. It makes you want to sit down and ...keep on sitting. Now look at the triad over b9, or over #5... now THAT's interesting. There's more tension. Well there are 12 notes you can use beneath any triad, 9 if you don't want to double the chord tones. So check it out Reg, each distinct note has a unique amount of tension. What if you "graded" those tensions so you could instantly create a line of slash chords that went from high tension to low tension, or built up to a point and then resolved to a dominant that took you home. You could effectively create a melody improvisation out slash chords and control the amount of tension in your line. It's out of the diatonic structure of the piece but it tells its own story. Outside the changes, tension based. Non functional harmony based on slash chords.
Add to this the option of using closed triads and spread triads and you've got one powerful way to remodel your house. It's like song-form bonsai. The cutting is not random but it's totally unexpected, and what comes out is logical and surprising.
Does this make any sense? As I said, it's not something Wes or Joe Pass would do, but it is familiar territory for piano players and the adventurous modern guitarist.
David
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Thanks David... so more in the sub dominant functional area of movement...
I like your metaphors for function being the existing space. I call that the form but I see how you use that as an organizational way to work with existing tune or changes.
I think of Function more of how the space within the form is organized. So my reference is the Tune.... not the neighborhood. There are always levels of anything etc... But when playing a tune... and the tune is the reference, which generally has space functionally organized.... the Harmonic Rhythm of the tune... In a practical sense... performing etc... are you talking about making an arrangement... and working from that arrangement. Tension release... Are you counting on musicians having ? really good ears.
Most Line cliches have pretty standard choices for functional changes... yes? when you change those... I believe one needs to set them harmonically up...difficult to pull off live.
So a melodic line cliche... or a moving bass line, above or within.... a moving line with relationship to a static chord. And using shifting tonal implications created from the... bass line. Creating Harmonic motivation based on tension with relationship to what might be implied from the relationship between the two parts. Almost Dual modality or tonality... isn't that still Function. We're not talking about standards anymore... more like contemporary composition. I like it... have always... but not really in the jazz tradition.
The weight or gravity etc... of tension also usually has harmonic function.
I believe the OP was looking at typical Jazz applications of Slash chords. I would dig hearing application of your approach... sound fun.
Thanks Reg
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I'm really interested in David's "graded tension" thing, but I'm still working on the more traditional approaches. He talked about it at a hangout once and it's pretty cool. The kicker is, you don't name the chords. You just evaluate the tension level and give it a number. I really like the idea of this, but I'm not ready for it yet.
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Yes, I see the tune's form as imbued with sacred content. I also see improvisation as a respectful process. For me, there is a hierarchical progression from the micro to the macro, that's why a second or third chorus should justify its existence, as having an evolutionary function in looking at what a piece is, what its essential nature is. Originally Posted by Reg
I would not make strong changes to structure until the form is well established, the foundations solid. I keep pretty much to changes for the first chorus. You know, I'd listen to people playing Monk pieces and the moment they start a solo, all of Monk's character that infuses the tune is gone, it's a blues solo or something. I hate that.
Maybe an interesting thread might be a discussion of developing a solo, the role of the first, second chorus and how they differ. But I feel the diversion from the original OP's question has gone on long enough.
I'll just say that a soloist (or compositional interpreter as I see it) has a choice when soloing. You can make variations on form, but what that form consists of (whether it's a set of chords you cannot deviate from or a series of routes to landmark points within the piece) is up to the understanding of the soloist.
If you listen to the work Miles did with the second quintet, you'll see that often how they saw form became plastic but the internal cohesion they kept with one another and their relationship and understanding of the tune was always very tight. To be able to achieve an articulation of form and intent when you're not merely relying on embellishing the given chord tones is a challenge in itself. That requires you develop your own vocabulary that carries and expresses a logic that can be understood.
Slash chords with chromatic bass notes is one such lexicon, and how you organize it, and what you say is the fun part.
Enough of this discussion here though, I don't think it's what the thread was intending to address.
To the OP, sorry for the digression. Good luck with the slash chords.
David
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Cool... for the OP.... Slash Chords are what I posted above.... usually Piano Voicings. If your not sure what I mean, take the time to notate and play all possibilities.
C triad over C
Db triad over C
D triad over C
etc..
Then do the same with minor triads, ( you'll see and hear your example Round Midnight)
Typically they all are chords and inversions from standard chords constructed from Major/ Min and Harmonic and melodic Minor.
Why we see and use the slash chords is because many musicians don't know all their basic chords and spellings used to play Jazz... and because one thinks... the voicings sounds cool, different etc...
They all basically become modal interchange usage... with whatever other harmonic organization one chooses to also use.
I would say... if you can't really cover playing jazz well with the basics. Your not really going to be able to cover more difficult harmonic organization.
The other slash usage is for implying Chord Patters with melodic line, (bass or else where).
If you want more examples or whatever... They have been around for centuries. I can help breakdown the common jazz practice examples, which is just the starting reference. As David was getting into... their are many doors. And as he also said, you need to have the skills to use in live situations.
OK... covered, David, I like your directions.
Yes the Form is the basic spatial reference... how we view the improvisational process, has options, personal etc...there are always many choices, and part of our jab as jazz musicians... is to be able hear and go with other musicians choices. At least, that is how I approach playing.
Changing Form.... requires performance skills, at least to the level of being able to play the music without much effort. In the end... most jazz musicians... are already there, right. On guitar, they can hear what's going on and have musicianship... don't need to stair at the neck and can hear what the rest of the musicians are playing etc... They know what's been played and what can be played as well of what's going on in the moment. I change forms all the time... when it's my gig or I know the musicians etc... Pretty easy to verbally cue during performance...or up front during head arrangement.... set up a few possibilities etc...
Example... back in the early seventies... playing "So What" standard A A B A right. anyway we would change the feel of the sections, on the B section... instead of Eb- modal thing we would modal interchange into a Eb sus , then Bb-9 to Eb7...II V groove ... the B section would become a Tonic in it's self. Instead of a dominant like function.... anyway we would extend the B section and even leave open with the soloist cueing the return to A.
Or the obvious vamps from standard chord patterns to break form and let tunes breath or let soloist go off... and yes this is pretty standard for jazz players.... and not for players of jazz tunes.
Like your idea of solo organization approaches thread... would probably be helpful to many. Although... if beginners don't get their technical skills together... be able to play their instrument etc... it should probable only be a small part of their practice routine.
I'm around for a while... Thanks Reg
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David and Reg and all please do not constrain your discussion to accommodate my original question you have both answered that question and much more . Feel free to continue your discussion it is fascinating for me to see doors open that I did not know existed
))
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Reg - Thanks
quote
"take the time to notate and play all possibilities.
C triad over C
Db triad over C
D triad over C
etc..
Then do the same with minor triads, ( you'll see and hear your example Round Midnight)
Typically they all are chords and inversions from standard chords constructed from Major/ Min and Harmonic and melodic Minor."
When I sat down and started playing with this today I realized I had seen this idea before - turns out in Steve Khan's " Chord Concepts" at the time I did not really understand the theory and the practical value now a little further along on I get it. Another way of organizing the same basic material at the level of simple functional harmony.
I am very conscious on getting the basics intuitive within a working organizational framework as a primary goal . That said I do like the idea of exploring/testing multiple ways of looking at things - seems like in jazz as with many other disciplines there are many ways to realize a particular outcome - it is always helpful to see things from different perspectives.Last edited by WillMbCdn5; 03-22-2018 at 08:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I realize its not really a /X thing . So using the IVmaj7 of the dominant parent scale to get upper extensions? Looking at that idea you could also get some use from the IIm7 and VII half dim ? or no
WillLast edited by WillMbCdn5; 03-22-2018 at 09:13 PM.
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I just see them as inversions, nothing complicated.
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Aww man, that recording is amazing. What an environment created with the organ trio. Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
And yes, that technique for dominants is usually referred to as Upper Structure Triads. It's not just for dominant chords either.
The idea is to find a major triad that goes over a bass note to highlight the sound of a mode or chord type.
If you take a II/I for example, like D/C, that would really be highlighting color tones from Lydian, D(9th) F#(#11 AKA the main note that defines the lydian sound) and A (13th)
There's a lot of digging you could do in to that. There's definitely cool stuff you could probably figure out with minor triads as well.
When you get down to the core of it, however, it's just intervallic relationships of the notes in a triad and the bass note. The more I think about it, it seems that skipping the mode naming stuff and just realizing what chord tones we're working with is more effective for understanding harmony.
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Yes. Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
A very simple way of getting the extensions on the dominant chord.
Of course you can relate these all to the mixolydian mode. Basically arpeggios of the mode. You can use any of those you like actually.
Bring in tritone subs and you start to get more and more options.Last edited by christianm77; 03-23-2018 at 09:07 AM.
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Regarding David’s concept that does indeed sound interesting and something I would like to play with. I have to some extent already, but not in a thoroughgoing way.
That said one thing I dislike in some modern jazz and sometimes in my own playing is lines that sound too much like a melodicisation of superimposed harmony.
A line should be a strong melody that happens to have harmonic content, ideally.
Working with triads I can find that the melodic contour of the line can be somewhat monotonous. How would you avoid this?
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Yes! The original piece needs to be respected. A good soloist takes a listener from a place of familiarity to seeing things that were familiar in a new and fresh way. So I feel you can't merely solo randomly on the limitations of the piece, but you also can't let your idea of structure limit the possibilities of your composition. Originally Posted by christianm77
There are structures that can be conduits to a more creative solo.
There are many ways that harmony can inform a new creative direction, these are in the non functional realm.
So in the interest of saving myself some typing, here's some stuff I'd long ago posted on these things:
Non Functional Harmony Practical approaches including Pomeroy dissonance
As to a practical application, maybe I'll resurrect one of those threads to keep the topics closer to function and application as those threads had begun to point to.
As a teaser though, I've been working with Green Dolphin Street. A B A C form. The A section is a nice area for staying in an area that follows the changes, and maybe on the second or third chorus, I might venture out and replace a passage with a line of textural chords.
You'll notice there are a lot of convergences (often called turnarounds or cadences). Any one of those passages is a candidate for a line of hybrid slash chords that would lead to a chord of the original changes. End of the B section there's a 4 bar section that takes you to Eb as a tonic point. The melodic line is diatonic ascending in scale steps. Perfect example of where each of those notes can be the top note of a major triad with a bass note that controls the tension of the mood.
In fact, the whole C section is one huge convergence with C major. You can create melody and harmony and control the amount of dissonance through that whole section and not violate the function of the piece.
Well you might have gathered that this takes a knowledge of the piece, its inherent changes and foundations for you to be able to re-build it. Yeah, it's a good argument for knowing a piece so well that you see possibilities and not changes. A good argument for knowing a piece as something "off book".
I played a regular gig with guys who had good ears and a sense of adventure. We'd go into sections of improvisation and it sounded like an entirely new piece, and then all of a sudden, on schedule, we'd converge with the piece together. Magic. And fun.
It's a different way of playing. Maybe it's something I'll get further into on a resurrection of one of the other threads since it's closer to playing out with form than this particular thread, but that's one look at looking at things in a different way.
Anyway, to a lot of people (lot of defenders of old school traditions here), these sounds are not jazz, outside of the tradition and worse. They are spices, and like a masterful chef, you might build an entire meal on the underlying and tasteful use of a spice, or flavour. For others not so well practiced, you may need to go through a period of overuse, but that's part of any developing sound.
I'm not even going to get into Mick Goodrick's treatment of triads over bass notes where he voice leads them through all possible cycles. But have fun with these possibilities. Maybe I'll bring one of the old threads back to life with a reharm of Green Dolphin.
Hope something of this makes sense to the adventurous-
David
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Yes... I new and performed in some of Herbs bands. I still use his line writing approach all the time.... it's obviously evolved. But I generally always thought of the approach of more of a way to camouflage standard swing functional harmony. And generally more for arranging approach....more of a written tradition. A set of guidelines for voicing below melody or soli sections. Many of the same rules as Chord scale application.... all still working within pretty standard functional music.
That approach is still how I comp.... start with lead note, then the bottom and then fill in the middle with intervals and notes from harmony...
Always be aware of the shape , the PD's, PC's, SC's, AN's, and all the other standard general guidelines from basic arranging and jazz countrapuntal approaches.
I understand and used his non-diatonic triads on top... but it's almost dated now. Too muddy of sound personally, but was cool in the 60's and 70's. His Duke stuff was also cool, again the double diminished voicings dated but his Blue Note voicings were and still sound great.
But again these were arranging techniques which camouflaged pretty standard harmony.... I get the use of Dissonance and Consonance to help shape and create the perception of motion. But I don't hear the function changing or actually becoming non functional. Maybe becoming aware of how to expand tonal function by within target functional sections or chord passages. Meaning... within a specific functional space, creating micro functional movement within that section... That's basically how you comp... using chord patterns, or if you like upper structure triads etc... to create again that perception of harmonic movement... camouflage etc...
I'm interested... I get the verbal part, it's not that complicated... I grew up arranging and composing back in the late 60's and 70's... but I would love to hear examples... I hope I'm not one of those old school defenders.... although I guess that's where I'm from and who I learned from.
Even notated examples, I can sight read almost anything...
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If there's an interest in non functional harmony through unconventional use of chordal material, I can start a study thread. This topic is large, far ranging and does require looking at chords in a dynamic moving way. It also involves learning to see melody and harmony in a unified way that goes counter to the practice of "reading and following the changes." Originally Posted by thule
If there's interest, that'd be the way to do this. A little at a time. Getting it in your fingers and practicing it, then putting it into an applied situation. As an example of what we're talking about, for each major triad, there are 9 distinct ways to complete a 4 part chord with a bass note beneath it. There are two groups of usable closed triads possible on a 6 string guitar. And then there are spread voicing triads, more possibilities.
THe only way to learn this is a little at a time, one grouping at a time. THat's a bit more than memorizing a grab for a drop 2 major 7th chord.
If it seems like an area that would be useful or desirable to have in your chording vocabulary, maybe we could do a study group thread or something. Up to you.
David
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Thank you for the answer! I would really try to participate in such a study group.
/bengt
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David,
Would love to hear your ideas on the subject, the communal response and individual discovery and application.
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