The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Here's Joe. He's finding it amusing as well. It's that kind of tune

    Gibson should make that guitar 'Gibson Joe Pass'
    Warm innit ....
    They'd sell tens of those !

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Bud Powell used the WT scale pretty straight. Ellington too if memory serves.

    It’s actually a pretty old fashioned sound. Maybe the reason why later players cooled on it.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    That's one of the easiest. Just 3 1 - 3 1 - 3 1 down the neck:

    A wholetone: Frets from top string:

    5 3
    6 4
    6 4
    7 5
    8 6
    9 7

    It's symmetrical ( G and B strings together because of tuning).

    Attachment 50883
    Yes, visually it's very simple. For some reason my fingers find it awkward feeling. (Or did. I'm getting more and more used to it).

    I've found I like it best with interval jumps. You can do a lot of combos of M2, M3, and TT. They don't have to be straight augmented triads.

    The point being is that I kind of avoided the WT scale for a long time, just because of the awkward feel of it. It was only David's comment that got me working on it again.

  5. #104

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    This is what you need! This is what we all need!

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-index-jpg

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    This is what you need! This is what we all need!

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-index-jpg
    Oh, like THAT wouldn't just confuse the hell out of me!

  7. #106

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    Okay, I've followed this thread with some interest, because it's a common question.

    Often what the person is asking is, "How do I put a Jazz Overlay on my Rock playing, and learn it really quickly?" Those guys always leave frustrated.

    On the other hand, if you really want to learn jazz, I'm going to agree with Christian and say it's a multi-year process. For me the specific things to work on would be really learning the fingerboard inside-out, ear-training, continuing to transcribe (your Grant Green was excellent) -- finding tunes you like, then recording the chords and playing melody over them. Try to get little embellishments into your playing, and try to understand (even if subliminally) the relationship between the chords and melody.

    Another thing -- this thread points out the exact problem with this kind of communication -- you ask for a simpler path, and just get a lot of conflicting ideas.

    One more thing -- if you gravitate towards fusion, maybe look into the John McLaughin DVDs -- "How I do it" or something like that.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY
    Okay, I've followed this thread with some interest, because it's a common question.

    Often what the person is asking is, "How do I put a Jazz Overlay on my Rock playing, and learn it really quickly?" Those guys always leave frustrated.

    On the other hand, if you really want to learn jazz, I'm going to agree with Christian and say it's a multi-year process. For me the specific things to work on would be really learning the fingerboard inside-out, ear-training, continuing to transcribe (your Grant Green was excellent) -- finding tunes you like, then recording the chords and playing melody over them. Try to get little embellishments into your playing, and try to understand (even if subliminally) the relationship between the chords and melody.

    Another thing -- this thread points out the exact problem with this kind of communication -- you ask for a simpler path, and just get a lot of conflicting ideas.

    One more thing -- if you gravitate towards fusion, maybe look into the John McLaughin DVDs -- "How I do it" or something like that.
    I'd offer this avenue. Don't try to play "jazz". Rather, pick a tune you like, scat sing a new melody and put it on the guitar. Then, if there's another sound you want to reach for, say, something you're heard on a record, you can start figuring things out. Gradually, you'll be led to a lot of the things that get discussed.

    My own experience is that the phone didn't start ringing regularly until I gave up the idea of being a "jazz" player and I just started playing the stuff I could already hear in my mind. I don't think I sound like a "jazz" player and, yet, I get called for jazz gigs regularly. Of course, I can read, I know a lot of repertoire and I can play through changes -- but that may be true of rock players also.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY
    ... Often what the person is asking is, "How do I put a Jazz Overlay on my Rock playing, and learn it really quickly?" Those guys always leave frustrated. ...
    Do they really? What makes you think so?

  10. #109

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    This multi-year journey.. Never-ending progress.. Yeah, all true, kinda. But this viewpoint actually is the culprit, the frustration bug. It sure takes some years to get to a certain point when you start believing that your playing may actually be a truly pleasing experience for other people. The funny thing is, it probably happened a LOT earlier.. I mean, not the belief but the skill and "value". Anyway, once this happens, you're done. Everything else is a everlasting improvement but something already works - good! But it can be really tough to get to this point.

    You know, "jazz too hard on guitar" - that's only true when comparing the playing with masters. Not so much when just having something ready enough that would make a regular person enjoy it.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Do they really? What makes you think so?
    I do think you see this a lot, specifically with players who've reached a certain point in playing rock or metal, who think they should learn jazz as a challenge or something that'll "spice up" their playing in another genre.

    That's fine and all, but really learning jazz is a commitment. It's like Satanism. You can dabble, but if you really want the benefits, you gotta go all in.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
    Yes, everyone here has been very supportive. It has been very interesting to get all this input. I’m overloaded though, and it seems that sometimes much of what one person recommends is contradicted by another. What I need are specific, actionable, measurable steps to take to get from beginner to intermediate. I have not found that yet, not here, not elsewhere online, not in books, and not with teachers. Jazz is very confusing.

    I agree strongly that I need to narrow my focus, but I have no idea what to narrow it down to? I’m definitely shelving the Omnibook for now. For a beginner that book can be an incredible source of frustration. I’m not taking anymore lessons either. Far too expensive for so little return. I’ll either figure this out on my own or quit trying and forget about it.

    For me personally, studying Jazz is less about having fun and more about exercising discipline musically. It’s like dieting, or trying to stick with an exercise regimen, or sticking to a budget. In other words, studying Jazz is something that I know is good for me, but can be very hard work. It’s no fun feeling like a stupid person or an undisciplined one. And like those activities, I personally need clear, concise, goals. I thought I had them defined. Turns out I don’t. Ugh.
    I've been lurking on this thread, and I think you're right that you haven't gotten much in the way of specific, actionable suggestions. Let me take a crack at that.

    - Find people to play with. No matter how good or bad they or you are, the ONLY way to learn jazz is to do it with other people. Jazz is group improvisation. It's not guys playing by themselves on youtube. If you have people you play non-jazz with, cajole them into trying a little jazz.

    - With the understanding that it's not easy to find people, for jamming along with tunes, don't use iRealPro; use backing tracks (there are tons on youtube). iRealPro is great as a fancy metronome, and it's helpful for transposing, but it's too stiff to really be able to play against. Most of the backing tracks you find on youtube come much closer to playing with real people (some are played live by real players; some are sequenced with varying degrees of realism). Also, play along with recordings, but do not try and transcribe solos. Just play (I assume this how you got started with rock; it works for jazz, too)

    - Play a lot of blues

    - Play a handful of tunes, a lot. Here are a few that are classic newbie learning vehicles:
    Autumn Leaves
    Blue Bossa
    Satin Doll

    - Set aside all the scales and theory you've been filling your head with for now. For now, these are the only scales that matter:
    Major
    Minor (including melodic minor)
    Blues (basically, the same minor pentatonic boxes you already know, plus the 6th, the major 3rd, and the blue notes)
    In addition to these, when you have a dom7 chord, altered 5ths and 9ths are available to you as "right" notes.

    - Before you start playing a tune, break it down into sections, and for each section try to figure out the key of the moment, and whether the basic color is major, minor, or blues. Try to be aware of this once you start to improvise, but don't worry about clams. Instead, most of your focus should be on phrasing and rhythm and the overall shape of what you're playing. Pitches get way more attention than they should. BB King can play a great solo over any set of changes using pretty much just one pitch. Miles, too.

    - Baby steps to improvisation:
    -- Learn the melodies to the above tunes by heart.
    -- Take your first tune (say, Blue Bossa) and play against a backing track
    --- First chorus: play the melody straight
    --- Second chorus: Play FEWER pitches than the melody. For example, in first two bars of Blue Bossa, play just the note G (one or more octaves), following the phrasing/rhythm of the melody; second 2 bars, do the same thing, with just F; do something similar with either the root or a chord tone of each of the measures in the rest of the tune.
    --- Third chorus: Split the melody into 4-bar phrases. For the first 2 bars of each phrase, play the melody. For the second 2 bars, play (literally) anything but the melody. Ideally, have it be something that is consonant with the changes at that moment and that is rhythmically distinct from the melody at that point, but don't work to hard on getting it right. Just focus on 2 bars of melody, 2 bars of not melody.
    --- Fourth chorus: 4 bar phrases again. This time, for the first 2 bars play eighth notes of (literally) any pitches; second 2 bars, play half notes (literally) any note.
    --- Fifth chorus: Play chords, one voicing per measure. Hammer on/pull off one note on either the top or second-from-the-top note in each voicing, basically at random.
    --- Sixth chorus: reprise the melody straight, and end.
    --- Lather, rinse, repeat, changing up the sequence, repeating some, etc.
    --- Over time build yourself up to playing full 4-bar sections in eighth notes.
    --- Over time, introduce more note values - triplets, rests, offbeats, holding tones across bar lines, etc.,
    ---
    - Do not treat jazz as an advanced discipline that you're doing because it's a challenge that's good for you. Do it because you like the music and you feel an inner compulsion to try to do it yourself. If you do not have that inner compulsion, forget jazz and focus on music for which you do. There is absolutely no point in an adult torturing himself to learn an art form he doesn't actually like. Reserve such torture for your children so that they have a reason to resent you.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 02-22-2018 at 06:40 PM.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. Beaumont

    that's fine and all, but really learning jazz is a commitment. It's like satanism. You can dabble, but if you really want the benefits, you gotta go all in.
    lol

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I do think you see this a lot, specifically with players who've reached a certain point in playing rock or metal, who think they should learn jazz as a challenge or something that'll "spice up" their playing in another genre.

    That's fine and all, but really learning jazz is a commitment. It's like Satanism. You can dabble, but if you really want the benefits, you gotta go all in.
    Well, maybe, but ...

    What I commented on was NOT learning Jazz as a challenge, or whatever. I was talking about, to quote again
    ... "How do I put a Jazz Overlay on my Rock playing, and learn it really quickly?"
    IMO, there is no reason whatsoever for anybody not to achieve mentioned goal. In matter of days, if not hours. I'm serious.
    There is absolutely no reason to learn Jazz in sense of becoming accomplished Jazz player to be able to do above.
    I can not understand the denial of this obvious distinction, by JGB forum members. I mean, I can understand why they act that way, but I can not believe they honestly think the act can produce any good on any side.
    If there is any frustration, I wonder where it comes from exactly and who is really frustrated.

    Further, I will not ask if you know any rock, or HM player who have tried to learn how to put some Jazz overlay over rock solo before quitting in frustration. but do you know, personally, any rock, or HM player who did it after trying to learn Jazz as challenge?

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    That's fine and all, but really learning jazz is a commitment. It's like Satanism. You can dabble, but if you really want the benefits, you gotta go all in.
    It's really worth doing. The pot luck suppers alone are to die for.

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    It's really worth doing. The pot luck suppers alone are to die for.
    I make kick ass Jesus'd eggs.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I make kick ass Jesus'd eggs.
    Sweet! But I think you're gonna want to stay away from the Fallen Angel food cake. It seems to have picked up some grit from the floor.

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    It's really worth doing. The pot luck suppers alone are to die for.
    Sometimes, they're to die _from_ ...

    John

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Sometimes, they're to die _from_ ...

    John
    You say to-MAY-to, Satan says to-MAH-to.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    You say to-MAY-to, Satan says to-MAH-to.
    I say to-MAH-to because, well, you know, I'm one of those... But you say AH too for some words where we wouldn't. Like p-ah-sta, Viet N-ah-m, and some more I forget now.

    But we both say car, park, arm, etc. For which we should all be truly grateful. AH-men

  21. #120

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    like p-ah-sta, viet n-ah-m
    wtf????

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    The pot luck suppers alone are to die for.
    Satanist pot luck suppers... the mind boggles. I mean, goat would be off for a start

  23. #122

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    I say Vietnam with an ah. Pasta is the normal way. You are literally destroying my sense of reality.

  24. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1

    So this is not pointless. Here's Satin Doll, a good standard in C, medium pace, simple chords (for jazz). Everything here is kosher. It's how it's done. This is standard, tested procedure. Nothing contradictory at all. So now it's up to you.

    Study it, apply it, research it, google it, whatever it takes. Others can only advise, you must do it.

    The best thing I would like to see is you coming back and playing it, even not that well. It doesn't matter. If jazz isn't just a whim and you really want to do it, off you go. Avante!
    Oh never fear, I did not, in fact, play it well. Lol

    Last edited by Jamesrohr1; 02-24-2018 at 01:49 PM.

  25. #124

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    Hey that wasn't bad at all. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on yourself.

  26. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Hey that wasn't bad at all. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on yourself.
    Thanks. I appreciate it.