The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    I've had a quick look and he's basically playing what you'd expect him to play. He does it his own way, of course, with the triplets etc.

    Bb: Bb6 shape with blue notes. Bb alt as a transition.
    Eb7: Bbm melodic, Bbm blues pentaonic.
    Cm: Cm melodic (Cm6)
    F7: still Cm but he also plays a DbM7 over it. Pretty, but difficult to resolve. And the usual F alt.

    The nailing thing is effective. You can do it in 3rds too.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77
    Drove to the lesson. I had tried to prepare for it and had a list of questions ready to go. The teacher was very patient and tried his best to answer my questions.

    But I could tell he wasn't really seeing my pain. I needed my hand held. I needed to be spoon fed. It didn't happen.

    A piece of advice to for all Jazz guitar teachers out there: Just because a student may have some technique and theory down doesn't mean he knows the first thing about Jazz.

    He tried to get me to play some phrases but I was pathetic. It was humiliating bordering on physically painful.

    After the lesson I'm more lost than when I started.

    Overall very disappointing. I'm sure I'm not a great student but sometimes I think this genre is unteachable.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
    Drove to the lesson. I had tried to prepare for it and had a list of questions ready to go. The teacher was very patient and tried his best to answer my questions.

    But I could tell he wasn't really seeing my pain. I needed my hand held. I needed to be spoon fed. It didn't happen.

    A piece of advice to for all Jazz guitar teachers out there: Just because a student may have some technique and theory down doesn't mean he knows the first thing about Jazz.

    He tried to get me to play some phrases but I was pathetic. It was humiliating bordering on physically painful.

    After the lesson I'm more lost than when I started.

    Overall very disappointing. I'm sure I'm not a great student but sometimes I think this genre is unteachable.
    I have handled that scenario by simply saying I can't. I can't really improvise - but I want to learn.

    Then the weight goes back on him.

  5. #79

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    I am enamoured with your thread James and some of the feedback the forum members have contributed are fantastic, as a fellow try hard thanks guys.

    I often feel the same. Sometimes I get angry even and think man I have past 50, I ain't got enough years left to learn. I feel I am exploding with passion for this music and sometimes I get close but like that movie National Treasure one clue just leads to the next.

    I had my first lesson 3 weeks ago and as I said a few posts back narrowing the focus was one of the tips. I have recently thought jeepers I am going back for another lesson and what have I learned I have not improved? Thinking about it, how much is realistic to expect to improve in 3 weeks when it took a lifetime to get here.

    I started jotting down what I have done over the last three weeks and I have definitely advanced. I think the diary thing could be a real boost to see the improvement and also to help narrow the focus so that you do improve.

    My teacher also made me record the lesson, I hope yours did. No failure only feedback. Just like listening to a song you don't like it is not a waste of time, what is it you don't like what is the good in there?

    Overarching everything must be to have fun. It sounds like you love the music, stay focused on that perhaps and admire the Lee Morgan's and Gilad Hekselman's. Bring the passion to your playing, your focused development and I am sure you will have even more fun and frustration in the future experiencing the jazz journey.

  6. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    I am enamoured with your thread James and some of the feedback the forum members have contributed are fantastic, as a fellow try hard thanks guys.

    I often feel the same. Sometimes I get angry even and think man I have past 50, I ain't got enough years left to learn. I feel I am exploding with passion for this music and sometimes I get close but like that movie National Treasure one clue just leads to the next.

    I had my first lesson 3 weeks ago and as I said a few posts back narrowing the focus was one of the tips. I have recently thought jeepers I am going back for another lesson and what have I learned I have not improved? Thinking about it, how much is realistic to expect to improve in 3 weeks when it took a lifetime to get here.

    I started jotting down what I have done over the last three weeks and I have definitely advanced. I think the diary thing could be a real boost to see the improvement and also to help narrow the focus so that you do improve.

    My teacher also made me record the lesson, I hope yours did. No failure only feedback. Just like listening to a song you don't like it is not a waste of time, what is it you don't like what is the good in there?

    Overarching everything must be to have fun. It sounds like you love the music, stay focused on that perhaps and admire the Lee Morgan's and Gilad Hekselman's. Bring the passion to your playing, your focused development and I am sure you will have even more fun and frustration in the future experiencing the jazz journey.
    Yes, everyone here has been very supportive. It has been very interesting to get all this input. I’m overloaded though, and it seems that sometimes much of what one person recommends is contradicted by another. What I need are specific, actionable, measurable steps to take to get from beginner to intermediate. I have not found that yet, not here, not elsewhere online, not in books, and not with teachers. Jazz is very confusing.

    I agree strongly that I need to narrow my focus, but I have no idea what to narrow it down to? I’m definitely shelving the Omnibook for now. For a beginner that book can be an incredible source of frustration. I’m not taking anymore lessons either. Far too expensive for so little return. I’ll either figure this out on my own or quit trying and forget about it.

    For me personally, studying Jazz is less about having fun and more about exercising discipline musically. It’s like dieting, or trying to stick with an exercise regimen, or sticking to a budget. In other words, studying Jazz is something that I know is good for me, but can be very hard work. It’s no fun feeling like a stupid person or an undisciplined one. And like those activities, I personally need clear, concise, goals. I thought I had them defined. Turns out I don’t. Ugh.

  7. #81

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    Don’t know if this helps, but when I was starting out I also learned things similar to that Grant Green solo without knowing much theory or what they were doing. But I just treated the phrases as little melodic shapes, little bits of melody as it were. Then I just messed about with some of them on other tunes where they would fit. E.g. if a phrase is on a minor chord then you can insert it into another tune on a different minor chord. Play by ear and move it to the right key or another string group. I had a lot more fun doing this than if I worried about progress etc.

    Six months is nothing, it took me a few years to get anywhere. But I was enjoying just playing around with the tunes and my ‘pet phrases’ and eventually it got me somewhere.

    I am basically quite lazy, so if I couldn’t make the process fun and musical, I probably wouldn’t have persisted.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
    For me personally, studying Jazz is less about having fun and more about exercising discipline musically.
    I'd have trouble spending the time needed to learn this stuff if I didn't love the music. (The American Songbook)

    Learning jazz can be a humbling experience especially if you're goal is to be able to play like the greats. I'm happy learning the changes then applying whatever new concepts I'm working on to them. My goal is much lower than playing like the great jazz players. I will take satisfaction from just knowing more than I knew last week and take inspiration from those who are farther along on the path.

    Again, best of luck in your journey.
    Last edited by Gramps; 02-20-2018 at 09:13 AM.

  9. #83

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    Its easy to get overloaded with Info's ...
    It happens to me too ...

    The sound comes first , so
    What I do is concentrate on one tune

    Take a standard you like ...
    (do all below ear if you can , but don't worry
    if you need paper at first , it will come easier
    as you do more tunes)

    Learn the tune
    (sing it first , then play it on the guitar)
    Learn the changes
    Make a simple chord-melody arangerment of it
    Play it a LOT ....
    Play it more !

    Then Analyse / think about the harmony of it
    Ie 'OK its the IV chord for two bars' etc

    Then improvise some simple lines of your
    own that fit over the changes nicely

    I find that really knowing the tune well
    combined with your ear
    (I don't naturally have great ears
    but they do get stronger as you use them)

    Is most of what I need the play ... and learn
    I tiny bit of theory helps occasionally

    But a tiny bit , don't get overloaded studying
    the dry theory ...

    Its very easy for me anyway to get overloaded
    with that stuff

    Man you're half way there already ...
    You can play !

  10. #84

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    I think you should go easier on yourself and bear in mind you have actually made some progress in six months. See the glass half full.

    Dave Leibman says (IIRC) it takes something like seven years to become a competent jazz player. And this is 7 years, I think, of pretty heavy practice and gigging.

    So, there's a lot of this ahead if you are serious, so you better learn to enjoy the process of working on the music. Or give up if you don't. You should do what you enjoy. Unless you are getting paid.

    This music is very difficult. The question may be instead not 'when do I become a halfway decent player?' but 'can I get engrossed in the process of learning or does it annoy me?'

    Also, you will never be able to listen to your own playing with hearing something you want to fix no matter many years you put into it. That never changes, just read interviews with musicians.

    Other than that? Work on fundamentals. Time, tone, triads and so on. Don't bother with anything complicated until that's together. The Omnibook can wait.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1

    For me personally, studying Jazz is less about having fun and more about exercising discipline musically. It’s like dieting, or trying to stick with an exercise regimen, or sticking to a budget. In other words, studying Jazz is something that I know is good for me, but can be very hard work. .
    OK I think that's plain wrong !
    Sorry ....no offence

    Its not like that for me at all
    It HAS to be fun otherwise you just
    won't do it ...
    My method above is all about fun and
    reward ...

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think you should go easier on yourself and bear in mind you have actually made some progress in six months. See the glass half full.

    Dave Leibman says (IIRC) it takes something like seven years to become a competent jazz player. And this is 7 years, I think, of pretty heavy practice and gigging.

    So, there's a lot of this ahead if you are serious, so you better learn to enjoy the process of working on the music. Or give up if you don't. You should do what you enjoy. Unless you are getting paid.

    This music is very difficult. The question may be instead not 'when do I become a halfway decent player?' but 'can I get engrossed in the process of learning or does it annoy me?'

    Also, you will never be able to listen to your own playing with hearing something you want to fix no matter many years you put into it. That never changes, just read interviews with musicians.

    Other than that? Work on fundamentals. Time, tone, triads and so on. Don't bother with anything complicated. The Omnibook can wait.
    Totally !

    I'd add tunes in there
    Learn a tune ...

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
    For me personally, studying Jazz is less about having fun and more about exercising discipline musically. It’s like dieting, or trying to stick with an exercise regimen, or sticking to a budget. In other words, studying Jazz is something that I know is good for me, but can be very hard work. It’s no fun feeling like a stupid person or an undisciplined one. And like those activities, I personally need clear, concise, goals. I thought I had them defined. Turns out I don’t. Ugh.
    I think this points towards the fact that you feel a bit stupid for not making progress.

    Rather, I think you are underestimating the difficulty and your goal setting is not realistic.

    I would suggest that you set goals that are based around inputs than outcomes for now. OK. I will practice arpeggios through a tune for 5m. Transcribe licks for 5m. Try and learn the melody of this standard for 5m. And so on.

    See where that gets you.

    Learning jazz should be fun in an 'oww my head hurts but its a good pain!' sort of way. Musical weight training.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
    Yes, everyone here has been very supportive. It has been very interesting to get all this input. I’m overloaded though, and it seems that sometimes much of what one person recommends is contradicted by another. What I need are specific, actionable, measurable steps to take to get from beginner to intermediate. I have not found that yet, not here, not elsewhere online, not in books, and not with teachers. Jazz is very confusing.

    I agree strongly that I need to narrow my focus, but I have no idea what to narrow it down to? I’m definitely shelving the Omnibook for now. For a beginner that book can be an incredible source of frustration. I’m not taking anymore lessons either. Far too expensive for so little return. I’ll either figure this out on my own or quit trying and forget about it.

    For me personally, studying Jazz is less about having fun and more about exercising discipline musically. It’s like dieting, or trying to stick with an exercise regimen, or sticking to a budget. In other words, studying Jazz is something that I know is good for me, but can be very hard work. It’s no fun feeling like a stupid person or an undisciplined one. And like those activities, I personally need clear, concise, goals. I thought I had them defined. Turns out I don’t. Ugh.
    It's not that complicated. The biggest difference between jazz and other "meaty" (i.e. classical) styles of music is improvisation.

    The concept of "levels" is very important. Unless one is exceptional they will generally fail when/if they skip levels. Progressing through the levels IS your road map!

    Jazz, like other folk styles has been prone to informal teaching/learning "methods" (in other words, inconsistent and not well sorted out methods). But that has changed in the past 5 decades. Some excellent reading will likely help you tremendously. I highly recommend Improvising Jazz by Jerry Coker, a classic book - AND - it has been updated with a lot more useful material for the digital version, available at Amazon.com. I have it on my iPad. Take a little time and read it. You'll be glad you did.


    Here's what a jazz musician needs to do - according to well organized levels of difficulty:

    1. Technique (scales, chords, arpeggios etc)
    2. Reading.
    3. Etudes.
    4. Repertoire (tunes/songs)
    5. Solo and Ensemble work
    6. Harmony & theory
    7. Composition, or at least an analysis of same.

    and last but not least - 8. Improvisation. Everything is improvised in jazz - the head/melody, the comping, and of course the solos. One note about improv, it is helpful to have some experience and knowledge in the above items 1,2,3,4 and 6 before pursuing deep study in jazz improvisation. I'm not saying put off all improv until a rainy day, just the opposite - but - digging in hard with the expectation of uninterrupted and upward moving progress is best supported by 1,2,3,4 and 6. If one has plenty of time and sheer will they can get around that to some extent, but that's not your adult situation.


    Just remember, it takes time and levels will keep you focused and progressing. Skipping levels is folly in most fields and that includes jazz musicianship. Think "crash and burn".

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    My experience is that stuff like that kind of sinks in unconsciously, and comes out the same way.

    Like, I can transcribe a solo, and learn a couple of really good licks, drill the hell out of them, etc. But trying to put them in my playing *consciously* is very difficult, because to do that, I have to interrupt my mental flow, and essentially say to myself, "Now is the time when we play The Lick." and it always sounds terrible.

    BUT, keep practicing it, and maybe in a month, or maybe in a year, that lick, or some variation of it, will pop up in a solo. I didn't plan it. I didn't think of it as "a lick" even. It was just a melodic possibility that was there, and I took it. Or maybe it's not the lick, but it might be a fragment of it. The way it foregrounds a particular note or interval or something.

    Something similar (but different) happens when I try to learn a lot of licks in a short period. It's not so much that the licks will pop out, but if there's some commonality with them - a particular contour or way or ending or something - then that might be what sticks, rather than any particular lick.
    Thanks for this. I think it's important for players to be reminded that there is light at the end of the tunnel, as often it cannot be seen.

  16. #90

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    I think it's important to remember.

    Jazz is music, music is TUNES. SONGS. LEARN SONGS.

    The journey IS the destination. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. There's another tunnel. Trust me, that's actually better.

    There's a saying in the martial arts, about how you train until you get a black belt, and then you keep training until your black belt is so worn and frayed it's white again.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I think it's important to remember.

    Jazz is music, music is TUNES. SONGS. LEARN SONGS.

    The journey IS the destination. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. There's another tunnel. Trust me, that's actually better.

    There's a saying in the martial arts, about how you train until you get a black belt, and then you keep training until your black belt is so worn and frayed it's white again.
    That's the central thesis of the book Zen Guitar. Journey from white belt to black, and then back to white.

    But yes, learn tunes. One of the biggest differences I see between the pros and the amateurs I know is that the pros know a million tunes. The amateurs (me included) are lugging our books around.

  18. #92

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    Anyone who told you learning was a linear process had something to sell you. There will be times when you pick up things quite quickly, and other times that it seems like a struggle. Just slow down, focusing on playing as perfectly as you can and let the process unfold at the pace it will. Be persistent, show up every day, give your best and you will learn at the pace that is right for you.

  19. #93

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    Here's Joe. He's finding it amusing as well. It's that kind of tune


  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    at the pace that is right for you.
    Which at the moment is *&)"^!

    sorry :-)

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Which at the moment is *&)"^!

    sorry :-)
    Probably should have mentioned that coping with the frequent in-balance between our expectations and the non-linear nature of learning was one of the hardest things for a lot of folks to deal with...

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    Anyone who told you learning was a linear process had something to sell you. There will be times when you pick up things quite quickly, and other times that it seems like a struggle. Just slow down, focusing on playing as perfectly as you can and let the process unfold at the pace it will. Be persistent, show up every day, give your best and you will learn at the pace that is right for you.
    And you never know what's going to "move the center".

    A bunch of years ago, I bought a book. It was a little over my head at the time, and a lot of it was exercises, but there was one page that broke down an idea, and for me, that was a spark that ignited a huge fire.

    Just that one page. Honestly, I've barely looked at that book, except for that page. And probably that information isn't any big deal to a lot of people. And it might not have made a difference to me except for the way it was laid out.

    (Learning styles are a big deal. My ex-wife did research on it for her Ph.D. In college, I got a D in Statistics. When I took it again, I got an A. The difference wasn't that I'd already seen the material. The difference was that the second time I took it, I got an instructor who taught in a way that worked with my learning style.)

    I guess my point is that if you keep at it every day, like Guido says, you will happen across these little nuggets of information that will open doors for you.

    Recently, I griped that while I like the sound of the whole tone scale, my fingers hate it. Forum member TruthHertz encouraged me to work at it, saying it's the key to getting "outside". So I've been working at it. Guess what. My fingers hate it a little less, and my ears are hearing it as an option more and more. And that's only been about a month. A year from now, it'll be just another option.

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    the whole tone scale, my fingers hate it
    That's one of the easiest. Just 3 1 - 3 1 - 3 1 down the neck:

    A wholetone: Frets from top string:

    5 3
    6 4
    6 4
    7 5
    8 6
    9 7

    It's symmetrical ( G and B strings together because of tuning).

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-th5-jpg

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    Anyone who told you learning was a linear process had something to sell you. There will be times when you pick up things quite quickly, and other times that it seems like a struggle. Just slow down, focusing on playing as perfectly as you can and let the process unfold at the pace it will. Be persistent, show up every day, give your best and you will learn at the pace that is right for you.
    Well I hope you don't mean me. After all, learning levels are somewhat arbitrary/flexible.

    Just not quite so arbitrary as chaos.

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    That's one of the easiest. Just 3 1 - 3 1 - 3 1 down the neck:

    A wholetone: Frets from top string:

    5 3
    6 4
    6 4
    7 5
    8 6
    9 7

    It's symmetrical ( G and B strings together because of tuning).

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-th5-jpg
    Hijacking the thread a bit:

    When I transcribe, I rarely find anybody running a WT scale. Rather, I tend to hear augmented triads. So, for example, if there's a descending WT lick it won't be A G F Eb Rather, it's more likely to be A G Eb B. So, the trick to it is getting two notes on the same fret on the G and B strings.

    It may also help to think this way: Start with G mixolydian. Remove the C, because it's the avoid note (for the sake of this discussion -- actually the C can sound great). You are left with G A B D E F.

    Now, G WT is G A B Db Eb F. Meaning, both alterations of the 5th. So, if you have some G mixo under your fingers, replace the 5th with the notes right above and below. So, it's G7 with #11 and a note that is both #5 and b13 (because there's no natural 5 or natural 6). Undoubtably, there's a more technically correct way to think about this, but those are the notes.

    That 6 note scale contains G B Eb and A Db F, both of which are augmented triads.
    You could think of it as a G7#11#5 scale, or augmented triads a whole step apart.

    There's a comparable way to think about diminished scales, basically two alterations of the ninth, one alteration of the 5th and a natural 6.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Hijacking the thread a bit:

    When I transcribe, I rarely find anybody running a WT scale. Rather, I tend to hear augmented triads. So, for example, if there's a descending WT lick it won't be A G F Eb Rather, it's more likely to be A G Eb B. So, the trick to it is getting two notes on the same fret on the G and B strings.

    It may also help to think this way: Start with G mixolydian. Remove the C, because it's the avoid note (for the sake of this discussion -- actually the C can sound great). You are left with G A B D E F.

    Now, G WT is G A B Db Eb F. Meaning, both alterations of the 5th. So, if you have some G mixo under your fingers, replace the 5th with the notes right above and below. So, it's G7 with #11 and a note that is both #5 and b13 (because there's no natural 5 or natural 6). Undoubtably, there's a more technically correct way to think about this, but those are the notes.

    That 6 note scale contains G B Eb and A Db F, both of which are augmented triads.
    You could think of it as a G7#11#5 scale, or augmented triads a whole step apart.

    There's a comparable way to think about diminished scales, basically two alterations of the ninth, one alteration of the 5th and a natural 6.
    Oh, yes, there's all that. Not just W/T but triads and other stuff based on it. Also the augmented scale... and everything round that too. But the poster only said W/T and fingering so I thought let's keep it simple.

    That's me, simple