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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    the whole tone scale, my fingers hate it
    That's one of the easiest. Just 3 1 - 3 1 - 3 1 down the neck:

    A wholetone: Frets from top string:

    5 3
    6 4
    6 4
    7 5
    8 6
    9 7

    It's symmetrical ( G and B strings together because of tuning).

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-th5-jpg

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5 View Post
    Anyone who told you learning was a linear process had something to sell you. There will be times when you pick up things quite quickly, and other times that it seems like a struggle. Just slow down, focusing on playing as perfectly as you can and let the process unfold at the pace it will. Be persistent, show up every day, give your best and you will learn at the pace that is right for you.
    Well I hope you don't mean me. After all, learning levels are somewhat arbitrary/flexible.

    Just not quite so arbitrary as chaos.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    That's one of the easiest. Just 3 1 - 3 1 - 3 1 down the neck:

    A wholetone: Frets from top string:

    5 3
    6 4
    6 4
    7 5
    8 6
    9 7

    It's symmetrical ( G and B strings together because of tuning).

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-th5-jpg
    Hijacking the thread a bit:

    When I transcribe, I rarely find anybody running a WT scale. Rather, I tend to hear augmented triads. So, for example, if there's a descending WT lick it won't be A G F Eb Rather, it's more likely to be A G Eb B. So, the trick to it is getting two notes on the same fret on the G and B strings.

    It may also help to think this way: Start with G mixolydian. Remove the C, because it's the avoid note (for the sake of this discussion -- actually the C can sound great). You are left with G A B D E F.

    Now, G WT is G A B Db Eb F. Meaning, both alterations of the 5th. So, if you have some G mixo under your fingers, replace the 5th with the notes right above and below. So, it's G7 with #11 and a note that is both #5 and b13 (because there's no natural 5 or natural 6). Undoubtably, there's a more technically correct way to think about this, but those are the notes.

    That 6 note scale contains G B Eb and A Db F, both of which are augmented triads.
    You could think of it as a G7#11#5 scale, or augmented triads a whole step apart.

    There's a comparable way to think about diminished scales, basically two alterations of the ninth, one alteration of the 5th and a natural 6.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Hijacking the thread a bit:

    When I transcribe, I rarely find anybody running a WT scale. Rather, I tend to hear augmented triads. So, for example, if there's a descending WT lick it won't be A G F Eb Rather, it's more likely to be A G Eb B. So, the trick to it is getting two notes on the same fret on the G and B strings.

    It may also help to think this way: Start with G mixolydian. Remove the C, because it's the avoid note (for the sake of this discussion -- actually the C can sound great). You are left with G A B D E F.

    Now, G WT is G A B Db Eb F. Meaning, both alterations of the 5th. So, if you have some G mixo under your fingers, replace the 5th with the notes right above and below. So, it's G7 with #11 and a note that is both #5 and b13 (because there's no natural 5 or natural 6). Undoubtably, there's a more technically correct way to think about this, but those are the notes.

    That 6 note scale contains G B Eb and A Db F, both of which are augmented triads.
    You could think of it as a G7#11#5 scale, or augmented triads a whole step apart.

    There's a comparable way to think about diminished scales, basically two alterations of the ninth, one alteration of the 5th and a natural 6.
    Oh, yes, there's all that. Not just W/T but triads and other stuff based on it. Also the augmented scale... and everything round that too. But the poster only said W/T and fingering so I thought let's keep it simple.

    That's me, simple

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Here's Joe. He's finding it amusing as well. It's that kind of tune

    Gibson should make that guitar 'Gibson Joe Pass'
    Warm innit ....
    They'd sell tens of those !

  7. #106

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    Bud Powell used the WT scale pretty straight. Ellington too if memory serves.

    It’s actually a pretty old fashioned sound. Maybe the reason why later players cooled on it.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    That's one of the easiest. Just 3 1 - 3 1 - 3 1 down the neck:

    A wholetone: Frets from top string:

    5 3
    6 4
    6 4
    7 5
    8 6
    9 7

    It's symmetrical ( G and B strings together because of tuning).

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-th5-jpg
    Yes, visually it's very simple. For some reason my fingers find it awkward feeling. (Or did. I'm getting more and more used to it).

    I've found I like it best with interval jumps. You can do a lot of combos of M2, M3, and TT. They don't have to be straight augmented triads.

    The point being is that I kind of avoided the WT scale for a long time, just because of the awkward feel of it. It was only David's comment that got me working on it again.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  9. #108

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    This is what you need! This is what we all need!

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-index-jpg

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    This is what you need! This is what we all need!

    Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.-index-jpg
    Oh, like THAT wouldn't just confuse the hell out of me!
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  11. #110

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    Okay, I've followed this thread with some interest, because it's a common question.

    Often what the person is asking is, "How do I put a Jazz Overlay on my Rock playing, and learn it really quickly?" Those guys always leave frustrated.

    On the other hand, if you really want to learn jazz, I'm going to agree with Christian and say it's a multi-year process. For me the specific things to work on would be really learning the fingerboard inside-out, ear-training, continuing to transcribe (your Grant Green was excellent) -- finding tunes you like, then recording the chords and playing melody over them. Try to get little embellishments into your playing, and try to understand (even if subliminally) the relationship between the chords and melody.

    Another thing -- this thread points out the exact problem with this kind of communication -- you ask for a simpler path, and just get a lot of conflicting ideas.

    One more thing -- if you gravitate towards fusion, maybe look into the John McLaughin DVDs -- "How I do it" or something like that.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY View Post
    Okay, I've followed this thread with some interest, because it's a common question.

    Often what the person is asking is, "How do I put a Jazz Overlay on my Rock playing, and learn it really quickly?" Those guys always leave frustrated.

    On the other hand, if you really want to learn jazz, I'm going to agree with Christian and say it's a multi-year process. For me the specific things to work on would be really learning the fingerboard inside-out, ear-training, continuing to transcribe (your Grant Green was excellent) -- finding tunes you like, then recording the chords and playing melody over them. Try to get little embellishments into your playing, and try to understand (even if subliminally) the relationship between the chords and melody.

    Another thing -- this thread points out the exact problem with this kind of communication -- you ask for a simpler path, and just get a lot of conflicting ideas.

    One more thing -- if you gravitate towards fusion, maybe look into the John McLaughin DVDs -- "How I do it" or something like that.
    I'd offer this avenue. Don't try to play "jazz". Rather, pick a tune you like, scat sing a new melody and put it on the guitar. Then, if there's another sound you want to reach for, say, something you're heard on a record, you can start figuring things out. Gradually, you'll be led to a lot of the things that get discussed.

    My own experience is that the phone didn't start ringing regularly until I gave up the idea of being a "jazz" player and I just started playing the stuff I could already hear in my mind. I don't think I sound like a "jazz" player and, yet, I get called for jazz gigs regularly. Of course, I can read, I know a lot of repertoire and I can play through changes -- but that may be true of rock players also.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY View Post
    ... Often what the person is asking is, "How do I put a Jazz Overlay on my Rock playing, and learn it really quickly?" Those guys always leave frustrated. ...
    Do they really? What makes you think so?
    ^ ^ ^
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  14. #113
    This multi-year journey.. Never-ending progress.. Yeah, all true, kinda. But this viewpoint actually is the culprit, the frustration bug. It sure takes some years to get to a certain point when you start believing that your playing may actually be a truly pleasing experience for other people. The funny thing is, it probably happened a LOT earlier.. I mean, not the belief but the skill and "value". Anyway, once this happens, you're done. Everything else is a everlasting improvement but something already works - good! But it can be really tough to get to this point.

    You know, "jazz too hard on guitar" - that's only true when comparing the playing with masters. Not so much when just having something ready enough that would make a regular person enjoy it.

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Do they really? What makes you think so?
    I do think you see this a lot, specifically with players who've reached a certain point in playing rock or metal, who think they should learn jazz as a challenge or something that'll "spice up" their playing in another genre.

    That's fine and all, but really learning jazz is a commitment. It's like Satanism. You can dabble, but if you really want the benefits, you gotta go all in.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1 View Post
    Yes, everyone here has been very supportive. It has been very interesting to get all this input. I’m overloaded though, and it seems that sometimes much of what one person recommends is contradicted by another. What I need are specific, actionable, measurable steps to take to get from beginner to intermediate. I have not found that yet, not here, not elsewhere online, not in books, and not with teachers. Jazz is very confusing.

    I agree strongly that I need to narrow my focus, but I have no idea what to narrow it down to? I’m definitely shelving the Omnibook for now. For a beginner that book can be an incredible source of frustration. I’m not taking anymore lessons either. Far too expensive for so little return. I’ll either figure this out on my own or quit trying and forget about it.

    For me personally, studying Jazz is less about having fun and more about exercising discipline musically. It’s like dieting, or trying to stick with an exercise regimen, or sticking to a budget. In other words, studying Jazz is something that I know is good for me, but can be very hard work. It’s no fun feeling like a stupid person or an undisciplined one. And like those activities, I personally need clear, concise, goals. I thought I had them defined. Turns out I don’t. Ugh.
    I've been lurking on this thread, and I think you're right that you haven't gotten much in the way of specific, actionable suggestions. Let me take a crack at that.

    - Find people to play with. No matter how good or bad they or you are, the ONLY way to learn jazz is to do it with other people. Jazz is group improvisation. It's not guys playing by themselves on youtube. If you have people you play non-jazz with, cajole them into trying a little jazz.

    - With the understanding that it's not easy to find people, for jamming along with tunes, don't use iRealPro; use backing tracks (there are tons on youtube). iRealPro is great as a fancy metronome, and it's helpful for transposing, but it's too stiff to really be able to play against. Most of the backing tracks you find on youtube come much closer to playing with real people (some are played live by real players; some are sequenced with varying degrees of realism). Also, play along with recordings, but do not try and transcribe solos. Just play (I assume this how you got started with rock; it works for jazz, too)

    - Play a lot of blues

    - Play a handful of tunes, a lot. Here are a few that are classic newbie learning vehicles:
    Autumn Leaves
    Blue Bossa
    Satin Doll

    - Set aside all the scales and theory you've been filling your head with for now. For now, these are the only scales that matter:
    Major
    Minor (including melodic minor)
    Blues (basically, the same minor pentatonic boxes you already know, plus the 6th, the major 3rd, and the blue notes)
    In addition to these, when you have a dom7 chord, altered 5ths and 9ths are available to you as "right" notes.

    - Before you start playing a tune, break it down into sections, and for each section try to figure out the key of the moment, and whether the basic color is major, minor, or blues. Try to be aware of this once you start to improvise, but don't worry about clams. Instead, most of your focus should be on phrasing and rhythm and the overall shape of what you're playing. Pitches get way more attention than they should. BB King can play a great solo over any set of changes using pretty much just one pitch. Miles, too.

    - Baby steps to improvisation:
    -- Learn the melodies to the above tunes by heart.
    -- Take your first tune (say, Blue Bossa) and play against a backing track
    --- First chorus: play the melody straight
    --- Second chorus: Play FEWER pitches than the melody. For example, in first two bars of Blue Bossa, play just the note G (one or more octaves), following the phrasing/rhythm of the melody; second 2 bars, do the same thing, with just F; do something similar with either the root or a chord tone of each of the measures in the rest of the tune.
    --- Third chorus: Split the melody into 4-bar phrases. For the first 2 bars of each phrase, play the melody. For the second 2 bars, play (literally) anything but the melody. Ideally, have it be something that is consonant with the changes at that moment and that is rhythmically distinct from the melody at that point, but don't work to hard on getting it right. Just focus on 2 bars of melody, 2 bars of not melody.
    --- Fourth chorus: 4 bar phrases again. This time, for the first 2 bars play eighth notes of (literally) any pitches; second 2 bars, play half notes (literally) any note.
    --- Fifth chorus: Play chords, one voicing per measure. Hammer on/pull off one note on either the top or second-from-the-top note in each voicing, basically at random.
    --- Sixth chorus: reprise the melody straight, and end.
    --- Lather, rinse, repeat, changing up the sequence, repeating some, etc.
    --- Over time build yourself up to playing full 4-bar sections in eighth notes.
    --- Over time, introduce more note values - triplets, rests, offbeats, holding tones across bar lines, etc.,
    ---
    - Do not treat jazz as an advanced discipline that you're doing because it's a challenge that's good for you. Do it because you like the music and you feel an inner compulsion to try to do it yourself. If you do not have that inner compulsion, forget jazz and focus on music for which you do. There is absolutely no point in an adult torturing himself to learn an art form he doesn't actually like. Reserve such torture for your children so that they have a reason to resent you.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 02-22-2018 at 06:40 PM.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. Beaumont View Post

    that's fine and all, but really learning jazz is a commitment. It's like satanism. You can dabble, but if you really want the benefits, you gotta go all in.
    lol

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I do think you see this a lot, specifically with players who've reached a certain point in playing rock or metal, who think they should learn jazz as a challenge or something that'll "spice up" their playing in another genre.

    That's fine and all, but really learning jazz is a commitment. It's like Satanism. You can dabble, but if you really want the benefits, you gotta go all in.
    Well, maybe, but ...

    What I commented on was NOT learning Jazz as a challenge, or whatever. I was talking about, to quote again
    ... "How do I put a Jazz Overlay on my Rock playing, and learn it really quickly?"
    IMO, there is no reason whatsoever for anybody not to achieve mentioned goal. In matter of days, if not hours. I'm serious.
    There is absolutely no reason to learn Jazz in sense of becoming accomplished Jazz player to be able to do above.
    I can not understand the denial of this obvious distinction, by JGB forum members. I mean, I can understand why they act that way, but I can not believe they honestly think the act can produce any good on any side.
    If there is any frustration, I wonder where it comes from exactly and who is really frustrated.

    Further, I will not ask if you know any rock, or HM player who have tried to learn how to put some Jazz overlay over rock solo before quitting in frustration. but do you know, personally, any rock, or HM player who did it after trying to learn Jazz as challenge?
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
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  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    That's fine and all, but really learning jazz is a commitment. It's like Satanism. You can dabble, but if you really want the benefits, you gotta go all in.
    It's really worth doing. The pot luck suppers alone are to die for.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    It's really worth doing. The pot luck suppers alone are to die for.
    I make kick ass Jesus'd eggs.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I make kick ass Jesus'd eggs.
    Sweet! But I think you're gonna want to stay away from the Fallen Angel food cake. It seems to have picked up some grit from the floor.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    It's really worth doing. The pot luck suppers alone are to die for.
    Sometimes, they're to die _from_ ...

    John

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    Sometimes, they're to die _from_ ...

    John
    You say to-MAY-to, Satan says to-MAH-to.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    You say to-MAY-to, Satan says to-MAH-to.
    I say to-MAH-to because, well, you know, I'm one of those... But you say AH too for some words where we wouldn't. Like p-ah-sta, Viet N-ah-m, and some more I forget now.

    But we both say car, park, arm, etc. For which we should all be truly grateful. AH-men

  25. #124

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    like p-ah-sta, viet n-ah-m
    wtf????

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    The pot luck suppers alone are to die for.
    Satanist pot luck suppers... the mind boggles. I mean, goat would be off for a start

  27. #126

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    I say Vietnam with an ah. Pasta is the normal way. You are literally destroying my sense of reality.

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    So this is not pointless. Here's Satin Doll, a good standard in C, medium pace, simple chords (for jazz). Everything here is kosher. It's how it's done. This is standard, tested procedure. Nothing contradictory at all. So now it's up to you.

    Study it, apply it, research it, google it, whatever it takes. Others can only advise, you must do it.

    The best thing I would like to see is you coming back and playing it, even not that well. It doesn't matter. If jazz isn't just a whim and you really want to do it, off you go. Avante!
    Oh never fear, I did not, in fact, play it well. Lol

    Last edited by Jamesrohr1; 02-24-2018 at 01:49 PM.

  29. #128

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    Hey that wasn't bad at all. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on yourself.

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Hey that wasn't bad at all. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on yourself.
    Thanks. I appreciate it.

  31. #130

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    Hey, James! Well, you did it. Great.

    Okay, well, forget the tune, that's just playing it. Liked the octaves, just the ticket. In real life, of course, you'd fill in those rather long gaps.

    See, the only time you actually enjoyed it was when you went into your pents and that very effective bluesy sound. As it should be, naturally, because your brain's been trained for years to do that. You naturally want to just let go and feel good doing it.

    Between you and me, I'd like to see you play the whole thing in your normal style. Forget 'jazz', just do it how you'd normally do it. I bet it'd be good.

    One point is whether you actually do want to re-train the brain to do something it's unused to. It's quite a different ball game, to be honest, and difficult. What do you think?

    If it's yes then there's tons of advice here and in the lesson section of JGO. Arpeggios, scales, the list is long and arduous. It's really quite a difficult task and I don't think there's any quick way round that.

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    One point is whether you actually do want to re-train the brain to do something it's unused to. It's quite a different ball game, to be honest, and difficult. What do you think?

    If it's yes then there's tons of advice here and in the lesson section of JGO. Arpeggios, scales, the list is long and arduous. It's really quite a difficult task and I don't think there's any quick way round that.
    Yeah, I think that’s what I need to do though. That next step. It only took 32 years to get to here. Lol. I understand it’s difficult. I think that was the crux of my original post.

    But why produce a video talking about how simple a subject is, and then cop to the proposition that “it’s really quite a difficult task”? You’d have to see the conflict in that? And I don’t think I’m being obtuse here but maybe I am.
    Last edited by Jamesrohr1; 02-24-2018 at 03:52 PM.

  33. #132
    The notes were fine but you don't have the feel yet. Do your transcriptions, play along with them and imagine that you're the one who plays the original.

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1 View Post
    But why produce a video talking about how simple a subject is, and then cop to the proposition that “it’s really quite a difficult task”?
    Because that way it is simple. Broken down to bite size chunks almost anything is simple. But from there to fluent jazz is another thing, obviously.

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1 View Post
    Yeah, I think that’s what I need to do though. That next step. It only took 32 years to get to here. Lol. I understand it’s difficult. I think that was the crux of my original post.

    But why produce a video talking about how simple a subject is, and then cop to the proposition that “it’s really quite a difficult task”? You’d have to see the conflict in that? And I don’t think I’m being obtuse here but maybe I am.
    It's like most things. It's complicated going in the front door, but after you've paid your dues learning the essentials, and some non-essentials, you can then step back from all that and see a couple things that are most important, the things that are "simple." Like Superman stopping a bullet. Easy. See bullet, step in front of bullet (you wont' have much time for this part), see bullet bounce off.

    Easy, simple, once you've nailed the "Be Superman" part.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1 View Post
    Oh never fear, I did not, in fact, play it well. Lol
    I thought that was pretty good. If you just improved the time so all the notes locked into the groove (which I know is hard to do at first), that would have been a very decent solo.

    So just keep going, you’re already on the way if you ask me.

    It’s a good job you can’t hear the first time I tried to play Satin Doll!

  37. #136

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    James -

    There's another thing. You seem rather irritated that a simple introduction hasn't turned you into Wes Montgomery after 10 minutes. It won't, obviously.

    If I may suggest it, keep playing that tune. There are more Dm's, Em's, Am's, etc, etc, than at those positions. Explore them, explore everything. Try it faster, slower, try it in a bossa rhythm. Put it into different keys. Go up in 4ths - F, Bb, Eb. Try it between the dots.

    Did you understand that bit about the 2-5's? How and why Am dorian works over D7? And what the extensions are and how they sound? And why the Ab melodic sounds better than the Ab dorian Gb/F# major scale (which is quite wrong). In fact, do you understand the melodic minor scale at all? Do you understand that Db7 is a tritone substitution? And that you could quite happily play in C major over the Db7, and why?

    It's all there but you need to plug away at it. Rome wasn't built in a day and Satin Doll isn't played in an afternoon. Neither is anything much in life, really.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    James -

    There's another thing. You seem rather irritated that a simple introduction hasn't turned you into Wes Montgomery after 10 minutes. It won't, obviously.

    If I may suggest it, keep playing that tune. There are more Dm's, Em's, Am's, etc, etc, than at those positions. Explore them, explore everything. Try it faster, slower, try it in a bossa rhythm. Put it into different keys. Go up in 4ths - F, Bb, Eb. Try it between the dots.

    Did you understand that bit about the 2-5's? How and why Am dorian works over D7? And what the extensions are and how they sound? And why the Ab melodic sounds better than the Ab dorian Gb/F# major scale (which is quite wrong). In fact, do you understand the melodic minor scale at all? Do you understand that Db7 is a tritone substitution? And that you could quite happily play in C major over the Db7, and why?

    It's all there but you need to plug away at it. Rome wasn't built in a day and Satin Doll isn't played in an afternoon. Neither is anything much in life, really.
    Who wouldn't like to play like Wes Montgomery? And are there any players that don't get upset when they don't think they sound good? I certainly did not expect to sound like Wes Montgomery. That would be silly. You yourself said it was ok to sound bad. And empirically it does. I think that was to be expected on both sides. I thought (like the tune) that I being humorous in my post.

    You went to the trouble to make that video though, so I thought I should at least take a swing at it to the best of my ability as it was indeed a concrete, measurable thing to undertake. I will continue to work on it as well as other items on the to-do list.

    Transposition will be difficult.

    I understood perfectly the theory behind what you were explaining (extensions, melodic minor, tritone subs, mild condescension, etc). For what it's worth (and I know it's not much) I have a degree in music and taught guitar six days a week for many years. I picked up a few things even if it was by accident. Lol

    Naturally it is the application though of those specific concepts that is difficult for the inexperienced/beginning improviser to pull off in real time (but I never played F# over that tritone sub, I promise I didn't. LOL). This gets to the heart of the concept of "nailing the changes", which we now know is very difficult.

    I made an entry in my calendar to stop back by this thread in a year and post an update. I'll let you guys know if I stayed with it or not.

    Thanks for everything.

    Thanks again everyone for all your help.

    Unless anyone has a specific question/comment I'm going to try to move on from this post and try do the work now.

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1 View Post
    Who wouldn't like to play like Wes Montgomery?
    Well, me for a start. Not because I don't think he's a stupendous player - he is - but because I'll never, ever play like Wes Montgomery - and neither will anybody else, not properly. What's the point in being a sound-a-like? Trying to be like somebody else is foolish. I thought the point was to find your own voice.

    I certainly did not expect to sound like Wes Montgomery. That would be silly.
    I wasn't being serious in that sense, it's just a figure of speech. I'm saying no one can expect to sound like a world class player in a metaphorical five minutes, that's all.

    You yourself said it was ok to sound bad
    I don't think I said exactly that. I said it was perfectly okay not to sound brilliant the first time one tries it, obviously.

    You went to the trouble to make that video though, so I thought I should at least take a swing at it to the best of my ability as it was indeed a concrete, measurable thing to undertake.
    I understand that, and good for you. Actually no one, including me, has said it was 'bad'. Quite the contrary.

    I will continue to work on it as well as other items on the to-do list.
    And that's one hell of an enormous to-do list, right? An impossible to-do list, I'd say. Start small, quietly, and grow.

    Transposition will be difficult.
    No, transposition is easy. From C to F? Like this:

    C - F
    D - G
    E - A
    F - Bb
    G - C
    A - D
    B - E
    C - F

    And then just read it off. Dm7 = Gm7. Or substitute whichever key-to-key you want. There are people who can do it instantly in real time but we're not aiming at that.

    I understood perfectly the theory behind what you were explaining (extensions, melodic minor, tritone subs, mild condescension, etc). For what it's worth (and I know it's not much) I have a degree in music and taught guitar six days a week for many years. I picked up a few things even if it was by accident. Lol
    Ah, the theory... but do you actually play it too?

    And why is transposition difficult if you have a degree in music?

    Naturally it is the application though of those specific concepts that is difficult for the inexperienced/beginning improviser to pull off in real time (but I never played F# over that tritone sub, I promise I didn't. LOL). This gets to the heart of the concept of "nailing the changes", which we now know is very difficult.
    That's what I'm saying. It comes with practice, practice being much playing time.

    Unless anyone has a specific question/comment I'm going to try to move on from this post and try do the work now.
    I'll repeat what others have said. Not the ones who say 'Learn 100 standards by tomorrow lunchtime' but the ones who said be realistic, keep it simple, apply common sense, etc.

    Okay, good luck. Maybe see you again :-)

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Well, me for a start. Not because I don't think he's a stupendous player - he is - but because I'll never, ever play like Wes Montgomery - and neither will anybody else, not properly. What's the point in being a sound-a-like? Trying to be like somebody else is foolish. I thought the point was to find your own voice.



    I wasn't being serious in that sense, it's just a figure of speech. I'm saying no one can expect to sound like a world class player in a metaphorical five minutes, that's all.



    I don't think I said exactly that. I said it was perfectly okay not to sound brilliant the first time one tries it, obviously.



    I understand that, and good for you. Actually no one, including me, has said it was 'bad'. Quite the contrary.



    And that's one hell of an enormous to-do list, right? An impossible to-do list, I'd say. Start small, quietly, and grow.



    No, transposition is easy. From C to F? Like this:

    C - F
    D - G
    E - A
    F - Bb
    G - C
    A - D
    B - E
    C - F

    And then just read it off. Dm7 = Gm7. Or substitute whichever key-to-key you want. There are people who can do it instantly in real time but we're not aiming at that.



    Ah, the theory... but do you actually play it too?

    And why is transposition difficult if you have a degree in music?



    That's what I'm saying. It comes with practice, practice being much playing time.



    I'll repeat what others have said. Not the ones who say 'Learn 100 standards by tomorrow lunchtime' but the ones who said be realistic, keep it simple, apply common sense, etc.

    Okay, good luck. Maybe see you again :-)
    To speak to your questions, and then I'll go away for real:

    I don't really mess with theory at all in my day-to-day playing. I studied quite a bit back in the day and on-and-off again when I have approached Jazz in the past. But Rock guitarists broadly just shoot from the hip. Same with transposition. I'm speaking anecdotally here, but I know of no rock or metal guitarists that practice things in all 12 keys. Why would we? We only play in a few keys anyway. And if we have to transpose sometimes we either retune or use a capo (a la Hotel California)

    Jazz theory specifically is something I am aware of from studying my favorite players (and high school Jazz band) but certainly have very little practical experience with. The horn keys are difficult for Rock guys because we simply don't use them. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that. Hope that explains my position a little more clearly.

  41. #140

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    Before you go - One of the best moves I ever made as a player was to program a few simple blues progressions into my drum machine (which had a bass instrument) in flat (or sharp, depending how you look at it) keys. I could still access my basic moves, but with an awareness that, "OK, this is in Eb, or Bb, etc." Of course I was maintaining an awareness of the interval functions within the given chord, i.e. "this note is the 6th of the IV" and so forth. Best of luck in your endeavors. Check in from time to time. There is much to be learned here.
    Best regards, k

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1 View Post
    To speak to your questions, and then I'll go away for real:

    I don't really mess with theory at all in my day-to-day playing. I studied quite a bit back in the day and on-and-off again when I have approached Jazz in the past. But Rock guitarists broadly just shoot from the hip. Same with transposition. I'm speaking anecdotally here, but I know of no rock or metal guitarists that practice things in all 12 keys. Why would we? We only play in a few keys anyway. And if we have to transpose sometimes we either retune or use a capo (a la Hotel California)

    Jazz theory specifically is something I am aware of from studying my favorite players (and high school Jazz band) but certainly have very little practical experience with. The horn keys are difficult for Rock guys because we simply don't use them. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that. Hope that explains my position a little more clearly.
    You think I don't know that? I started out doing classical, then folk, then country, then blues, then bluegrass and Old Time. It was all G, C, D, E, A and capo 4 for B which is a lovely key for bluegrass songs.

    I never even thought about jazz till much, much later. I had to start again, no capo, between the dots, learn the scales and theory... I did the work.

    You think I don't know what you're talking about? Sheesh! That's why I'm talking to you like this. What do you want, sympathy? You've got to start again and you either do it or don't do it. It's that simple.

    Heavens to Betsy!


  43. #142

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    Here's a little bit in F just for fun. And one can go right round the keys.


  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1 View Post
    Oh never fear, I did not, in fact, play it well. Lol

    Heya. This is a solid basis, and I think your playing is sounding pretty pleasing to the ear.

    You are starting to get the triplet swing feel, some lines to play on the changes and you can play the melody convincingly.

    Of course there are 8 million things I could recommend but as you are already probably reaching into overload I will make two recommendations:

    1) do a short video like this every month. Don’t watch them right away but keep them on file. Then after six months or a year, look back on what you have done. I think this may go some way towards combatting a sense of futility. Maybe even post it up here, would be great to see.

    2) keep your wrist straight for the octaves. You may need to move your thumb a little higher so it’s just peeking over the neck. This is fine (electric guitar necks are narrow) and important for your playing health.

    Other than that, keep us updated on your development. Nice job!

  45. #144

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    Hey. Not trying to resurrect this this thread or be a nuisance. But some folks asked me to follow up a year later to see how I was doing. So I am.

    I have honestly made little to no progress, but I’m still chipping away as I can. I’ve been involved in quite a few musical projects over the last year, but none of them were Jazz.

    I did learn a Parker head.


    And I started working on some comping.


    I’m also exploring a few things recommended elsewhere in this forum:

    I bought a copy of Comprehensive Jazz Technique for Jazz Musicians. It goes about as far down the rabbit hole as anyone would like to go. Intimidates the hell out of me. Might be good for reference if I can work up to it.

    Currently on chapter 5 of Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing. Effective, difficult, but it seems like a linear method I might be able to comprehend.

    I found a list of 10 important standards here as well and printed off the lead sheets. I know you guys want me to learn them by ear. And I could probably get the melody and some licks, but I’d never figure out the harmony. So yes, I’m working on standards from the lead sheet. (I understand the written music may be incorrect). I also have rhythm changes, and Bb and F blues changes printed.

    I listen to Jazz recordings every day as time permits.

    I still couldn’t improvise a coherent solo over Autumn Leaves however and that’s probably the biggest failure. Two things: 1) I cannot nail the changes even at a very slow tempo. And even when I can....2) I have no language. I know the problems but I’m not sure how to fix them.

    I found a Charlie Christian best of on ITunes and I’ll try to start transcribing it as maybe I might be able to hear the harmony if it’s simple enough.

    I’m hesitant to include this but this is an improv of a static funk grove. It’s not Jazz and there are no changes but it is 100% improvised.



    I have not played with any other Jazz musicians and have had no additional private lessons. I don’t see that changing any time soon.

    I’m not looking for any advice and again, not trying to resurrect the thread. I had set a reminder on my phone to follow up a year and got a laugh when it came up today.

    I’ll try to hit you up in other year. Maybe by then I’ll have some Jazz together. Thanks. Take care.

  46. #145
    This is one of the best, most articulate, honest, helpful posts I’ve ever read. I am also a newcomer to Jazz, but from a “folk” “3 chord” background. [ I did study clarinet and learned basic theory 5 decades ago. ]
    i haven’t yet read the 30+ replies to your question yet but I offer one perspective, as a 66 year old man/father:
    I’m pretty sure you won’t walk out of your house one day and see a skywriter proclaiming “You’re on the right track.” Or “focus more on modes”. The universe doesn’t cooperate and provide such reassurances.PROGRESS CAN BE IMPERCEPTIBLE. Yet, progress can appear without warning! as in “WOW. When did I learn how to do that?”

    Obviously, one’s expectations must be reasonable. I still wait for Bob Dylan to call me and ask me to review the lyrics of his next album.
    Maybe he can’t find my phone number.

    I can’t see how you couldn’t be improving. I do think you have a particular challenge: isolation- no Jazz musicians nearby. But in the world of Internet, you can better address that challenge than early, isolated musicians could.
    Good luck.
    i respect your effort.

    one follow-up: I believe the reason we practically diefy Charley Parker, Pat Martino, Art Tatum, many JazzGuitar.be contributers, Donald Fagen ... is ... simply because of their amazing accomplishments in an extremely challenging art (Jazz). If it weren’t so impossible, we’d hardly notice these giants.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarStudent View Post
    This is one of the best, most articulate, honest, helpful posts I’ve ever read. I am also a newcomer to Jazz, but from a “folk” “3 chord” background. [ I did study clarinet and learned basic theory 5 decades ago. ]
    i haven’t yet read the 30+ replies to your question yet but I offer one perspective, as a 66 year old man/father:
    I’m pretty sure you won’t walk out of your house one day and see a skywriter proclaiming “You’re on the right track.” Or “focus more on modes”. The universe doesn’t cooperate and provide such reassurances.PROGRESS CAN BE IMPERCEPTIBLE. Yet, progress can appear without warning! as in “WOW. When did I learn how to do that?”

    Obviously, one’s expectations must be reasonable. I still wait for Bob Dylan to call me and ask me to review the lyrics of his next album.
    Maybe he can’t find my phone number.

    I can’t see how you couldn’t be improving. I do think you have a particular challenge: isolation- no Jazz musicians nearby. But in the world of Internet, you can better address that challenge than early, isolated musicians could.
    Good luck.
    i respect your effort.

    one follow-up: I believe the reason we practically diefy Charley Parker, Pat Martino, Art Tatum, many JazzGuitar.be contributers, Donald Fagen ... is ... simply because of their amazing accomplishments in an extremely challenging art (Jazz). If it weren’t so impossible, we’d hardly notice these giants.

    Thanks for your reply and encouragement. This is an older thread, but I'm still hacking away slowly. You are correct about the isolation, there are no jams here, but about every three to six months Jazz fans in neighboring towns host a Jazz Crawl that I try to attend. It's a good way to at least see some live Jazz.

    I'm still not able to improvise over beginner standards but I'm trying. I really am. Just finished Robert Conti's "Ticket to Improv" Vol 1. Not sure what I was expecting to have happen with that one. And I'm exploring Jazz Blues. My thought being that if maybe the standards are too difficult to start with I'd have an easier time on Jazz Blues numbers. Jury is still out. But thanks again.

  48. #147
    Would you kindly provide the title of the Clint Strong, YouTube video you mentioned? Thank you

  49. #148
    James,
    May I offer one more piece of “advice”? You probably harbor some idea of what a “top-tier” jazz guitarist is, looks like, plays, studies, etc.
    Consider relaxing or discarding that “picture”.

    Or said another way: Stop aspiring to be a “good jazz guitarist” according to one image only.

    First of all, in today’s internet world, 1,000 talented people probably started learning jazz guitar in the time it took to write this. Some will become renowned.

    Whereas there may have been a great-jazz-guitarist-prototype in past years (Wes, Joe Pass, Pat Martino), in 5 years (or months) there will be brand-new “masters”.
    So consider easing up of that type of self-imposed-goal (if you have it). Approach your mastery as if you, yourself were your only audience. Disregard those ghosts.

    James, I may read what I’ve just written and see it as pompous nonsense. So if it has value to you, print it because I’ll likely delete it.

    I’m suggesting we adopt a pioneer mentality (no role-models available) - to trust our own hearts, “callings” and tastes and aspire, gently, towards our own pinnacles (forgetting the past “greats”).
    “Be the first” to do it a particular way. Somebody has to be the first!

    Even if you don’t buy this completely, maybe doing it a little might relieve drudgery and add joy to your cool quest: MUSIC.

    The never-ending road to music-mastery is glorious. But we’ll always be “approaching the (next) beginning” in a sense.
    I don’t mind that!
    Enjoy.
    Last edited by GuitarStudent; 08-20-2019 at 10:58 AM.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarStudent View Post
    James,
    May I offer one more piece of “advice”? You probably harbor some idea of what a “top-tier” jazz guitarist is, looks like, plays, studies, etc.
    Consider relaxing or discarding that “picture”.

    Or said another way: Stop aspiring to be a “good jazz guitarist” according to one image only.

    First of all, in today’s internet world, 1,000 talented people probably started learning jazz guitar in the time it took to write this. Some will become renowned.

    Whereas there may have been a great-jazz-guitarist-prototype in past years (Wes, Joe Pass, Pat Martino), in 5 years (or months) there will be brand-new “masters”.
    So consider easing up of that type of self-imposed-goal (if you have it). Approach your mastery as if you, yourself were your only audience. Disregard those ghosts.

    James, I may read what of I’ve just written and see it as pompous nonsense. So if it has value to you, print it because I’ll likely delete it.

    I’m suggesting we adopt a pioneer mentality (no role-models available) - to trust our own hearts and tastes and aspire, gently, towards our own pinnacles (forgetting the past “greats”).
    “Be the first” to do it a particular way. Somebody has to be the first!

    Even if you don’t buy this completely, maybe doing it a little might relieve drudgery and add joy to your cool quest: MUSIC.

    The never-ending road to music-mastery is glorious. But we’ll always be “approaching the (next) beginning” in a sense.
    I don’t mind that!
    Enjoy.
    Thanks you so very, very much for this. It was extremely uplifting for me.

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarStudent View Post
    Would you kindly provide the title of the Clint Strong, YouTube video you mentioned? Thank you
    I'm sorry I don't remember mentioning this. Maybe another commentator did?