Inversions of more complex chord voicing question

[rpjazzguitar]

1 2 4 7 sounds great.

I can play it in C as 880x0x.

Am I missing something? How do you play this voicing?

[christianm77]

I think most things you have to play as a drop voicing of some kind.

I worked last week on an exercise related to that which Alter outlined above with an (advanced) student

We were looking at What Is This Thing Called Love. I wanted him to practice same structure/different chords. So, we started by applying m6 chords on a minor ii-V-I, an easy example.

Gm7b5 C7alt Fm6

Which gives you

Bbm6 Dbm6 Fm6

You then voice lead this in your favourite voicings. Student in question knew drop 2's, so we did that.

I then asked him what his favourite voicing was. He said he liked:

x x 5 6 6 8

on an A altered.

I pointed out that this could also be used as a minor, half dim and regular dominant voicing for Bbm, Gm7b5 and Eb7 respectively. And that it was among other things, a rootless voicing of a m6/9 chord, and that we could arrive at it by raising the root note of a drop 2 third inversion Bbm6 chord by a step.

We then took all the drop 2 m6 voicings and raised the 1 to a 2 (what Barry would call a borrowed note, BTW) and played them through the progression.

Got some scrumptious voicings and voice leading.

[christianm77]

Personally I use 1 2 5 7 a lot - there's a lot you can do with that, as it's ambiguously major/minor. I'm still getting to grips with it really, but I use it in drop 2s and 3s.

[christianm77]

And another thing! :-)

One of the nice things about looking into figured bass is you see how inversions triads and seventh chords etc are intervallic structures as well as permutations of other things. In the 17th/18th century everyone considered the inversions of a major triad for instance to be different chords, so they were written (diatonic intervals above the bass in descending order):

Triads
5 3 - Root
6 3 - 1st inv
6 4 - 2nd inv

Now, what may be helpful is seventh chords:
7 5 3 - R, to us 1 3 5 7, a seventh chord of some kind
6 5 3 - 1, to us 1 3 5 6, a sixth chord of some kind
6 4 3 - 2, to us 1 3 4 6
6 4 2 - 3, to us 1 2 4 6, a slash chord, triad with a bass note a step lower.... Most obvious example of this is the lydian voicing e.g. D/C. In fact, this is also a third inversion dom 7

So with any permutation of intervals you will start to see familiar patterns and fingerings if you do it long enough. Which may make it less daunting. There are less combinations than it might seem.

OTOH there's almost endless applications. One simple voicing applied consistently and thoroughly is worth a hundred half internalised single use grips.

[rpjazzguitar]

And another thing! :-)

One of the nice things about looking into figured bass is you see how inversions triads and seventh chords etc are intervallic structures as well as permutations of other things. In the 17th/18th century everyone considered the inversions of a major triad for instance to be different chords, so they were written (diatonic intervals above the bass in descending order):

Triads
5 3 - Root
6 3 - 1st inv
6 4 - 2nd inv

Now, what may be helpful is seventh chords:
7 5 3 - R, to us 1 3 5 7, a seventh chord of some kind
6 5 3 - 1, to us 1 3 5 6, a sixth chord of some kind
6 4 3 - 2, to us 1 3 4 6
6 4 2 - 3, to us 1 2 4 6, a slash chord, triad with a bass note a step lower.... Most obvious example of this is the lydian voicing e.g. D/C. In fact, this is also a third inversion dom 7

So with any permutation of intervals you will start to see familiar patterns and fingerings if you do it long enough. Which may make it less daunting. There are less combinations than it might seem.

OTOH there's almost endless applications. One simple voicing applied consistently and thoroughly is worth a hundred half internalised single use grips.

I really ought to go about this in an organized way.

1 2 5 7 is playable and I usually use it as a maj9 voicing. For example xx5232 is Gmaj9. Maybe it should be called G(maj7/2) because the A note is the second lowest. Brazilians might do that, to make the voicing clear (although, tbh, I've never seen it). It's also x30000 as Cmaj9.


xx4557 is a favorite of mine too. Lot's of ways to think about it. If you started with xx4555 and raised the root, you get it. So it's Am69, but it's also commonly used as D13. And, since it's out of Amelmin (or could be, anyway), you get all the other names within the melmin scale. Bsusb9, Cmaj7#11, E9#5 etc. Maybe most used as a G#alt.

1472 is playable eg.. x3343x, although I am not feeling much temptation to use it. Probably one of those chords that doesn't sound good until you find a context in which it's perfect.

[christianm77]

Yeah I dunno. I don't think doing this will necessarily make you a better jazz player, as Reginald (that's what I'm calling him from now on) points out.

I think it's like exercising your 'fretboard mapping muscle' - these exercises are definitely easier than when I started doing them 5 years ago. I can do a new bunch of voicings and it's less of a brain buster.

And obviously, you may find some sounds you really like along the way. But I doubt (and I am prepared to be proven wrong on this) that even Ben Monder doesn't employ every voicing he has practiced.

At some point a may get onto the Mick Goodchord Almanac of Acute Migraines but I think with New Dad sleep deprivation there's enough of that just remembering what I have to get from Tesco's.

Feed the beast. Throw the raw meat in the guitar case. 5m a day...

[Alter]

1 2 4 7 sounds great.

I can play it in C as 880x0x.

Am I missing something? How do you play this voicing?

most of these are playable if you start at the drop2 and drop 3 voicings.
For example Cmaj7
1247 ionian, four inversions of drop2 in middle strings would be (starting from the A string) 3343, 5956, 810712, 14121013

I see this practice as an evolution of the basic 1357 voicings. As you become able to voice lead say a II-V-I with drop2 and drop3 voicings, you start to incorporate tensions, but still voice lead, follow and hear all the notes in a chord, and not just play them by shape in a block chord mentality.

Another interesting way to practice them is like an arpeggio, where you can arpeggiate the chord and then change say 5 to 4, 3 to 2 or something similar, but keep doing the same thing in the complete chord progression you are playing.

[rpjazzguitar]

When I saw Jim Hall live many years ago, I recall being surprised by how much he used x8999x.

Now, of course, I understand that, if you were limited to one dominant voicing -- and still had to sound like a jazz player -- probably, that's the one. For the tonic voicing, I'd go with x5556x. Could be F, Bb, Eb or Ab.

And, there would be other ways to use them. In fact, it might be a useful exercise to reharmonize every tune in my repertoire using only those two grips.

Well, the part about Jim Hall is true. I don't recall him as a guy who played a zillion stretchy chords. He seemed to find lots of interesting ways to use the same grip.

He remains my all-time favorite.

[christianm77]

I think you should totally do the exercise.

Remember of course you have
xx3454
xx0011
As alt grips

But the serious point here is that intervallic structures can be pressed into a number of uses.

Hence my half joking reference to there being two chords in jazz.
Static (like x5556x) consisting of euphonious, blending intervals and Dynamic (like x8999x) with some dissonance, usually at least one tritone.

And then you realise there’s grey area between them. For instance a sus quality chord is a static chord used in a dynamic context, and a m6 or even maj7#11 can be an example of the opposite.

[Reg]

So when you are comping.... what is the goal? If you don't have a goal, then what are you trying to create... Why are you playing.

I'm serious... say your performing with a trio and a sax , vocal... someone is playing the head... what is the point of your comping?

Skip the locking in with the and rhythmic aspects... we're talking about comping, and what voicings we're using.

[christianm77]

I think the thread was talking about voicings without a comping context.

You may well question the point of it, but I see it more as fretboard and harmonic knowledge that might become the basis of compositions, comping voicings or anything else. Or just fretboard mapping for knowledge's sake.

[Reg]

OK... carry on.

[christianm77]

But a thread about comping would be really cool....

[rpjazzguitar]

I tried playing My Romance with just the two voicings. x8999x and x5556x. Played at different frets.

I found it to be an interesting exercise. It's possible, more or less, and I ended up playing some harmony that I know I wouldn't have otherwise stumbled upon.

What I need to do next is codify it somehow, so I can remember it better and apply it more easily in other situations. I'd prefer to do that purely by ear, but I need the linguistic support.