How good do you want to be? (not just for those getting started)

**Jonah** · 01-12-2018, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Kind of make sense when I think of Palestrina etc and compare it to say Beethoven. Also there is the medieval motif of the wheel of fortune (No not that one lol.) Rennaisance thought of itself I suppose as recovering a lost of a golden age more than creating something new.

In jazz, the arrow of time is encoded into the very language we use and the way we play. It's music of the urban age, after all....

The very style of rhythm - the push.... Bebop phrasing is generally about pushing a phrase before the beat, on the 4+ for instance, the resolution of phrases on the 1+ instead of the the expected 2 of the swing era ('BE-BOP!').

Yes... jazz is all about movement and targeting... we hear it all the time even in educational process.

But on the other hand... on bigger scale jazz performance forms are very static... this targeting and movement is often there on microlevels... but we take the jam exchange of solos where thw same choruses can be repeated endlessely... and solos are taken by different players that is though often related to contextual solos is still like starting over... even within one solo like Wes' for example I can hear sometimes that he is not following the idea of consequent development of solo... sometimes he does and even has big conception with lines followed by octaves followed by chords.. but often he switches from one idea to another. It is not that much important what was there in the solo 40 seconds before.. it is important what was there just now a beat before and what will be a beat after...
Present moment becomes a mixture of what just happend and what will happen right after.
Interaction between players adds more to that.. that makes jazz a tool to physically experience present. All music actually but jazz and baroque the most

To me it brings the same never ending circular rotation feeling.
Jazz uses linear classical and romantic tools but does not expand on form level.

For example baroque is also all about movement but it's not linear... this movement is like rotating within a sphere... which is both different from classical and jazz .

**christianm77** · 01-12-2018, 01:33 PM

Yes there is a cyclical thing too....

This is what Wes had to say about his own playing - you probably know the quote:

'I don’t know that many chords. I’d be loaded if I knew that many. But that’s not my aim. My aim is to move from one vein to the other without any trouble. The biggest thing to me is keeping a feeling, regardless what you play. So many cats lose their feeling at various times, not through the whole tune, but at various times, and it causes them to have to build up and drop down, and you can feel it. ?'

So he had a concept of the emotional form of his playing, which it has been noted remains quite constant from recording to recording. But he found one thing that worked brilliantly.

However that basic form of quiet---->loud, low---->high, sparse---->busy and then next solo is very prevalent and hard to get away from. In vamp based music it's particularly noticeable and a real cliche (70s jazz/rock). Metheny stated he was trying to get away from this with Bright Size Life.

**grahambop** · 01-12-2018, 02:43 PM

Most people in the past thought everything would be wonderful when they got to Heaven (if they were good).

**Jonah** · 01-12-2018, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Most people in the past thought everything would be wonderful when they got to Heaven (if they were good).

Besides death was casual thing... it was part of life.

Today most people live as they are immortal in physical sense.

**Jonah** · 01-12-2018, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Yes there is a cyclical thing too....

This is what Wes had to say about his own playing - you probably know the quote:

'I don’t know that many chords. I’d be loaded if I knew that many. But that’s not my aim. My aim is to move from one vein to the other without any trouble. The biggest thing to me is keeping a feeling, regardless what you play. So many cats lose their feeling at various times, not through the whole tune, but at various times, and it causes them to have to build up and drop down, and you can feel it. ?'

So he had a concept of the emotional form of his playing, which it has been noted remains quite constant from recording to recording. But he found one thing that worked brilliantly.

Yes I know this quote... when I first read it was really great to see how clever a player he was, he highlighted the important thing. Of course emotionally he is very integral - that's what makes a great musician (not just good, accomplished but great).
But he took chances often.. and when you take chances you can fail too from time to time. That's what I love about jazz too... it's like Al Pacino's tango from Scent of a Woman... you make a mistake no problem you just go on play...

However that basic form of quiet---->loud, low---->high, sparse---->busy and then next solo is very prevalent and hard to get away from. In vamp based music it's particularly noticeable and a real cliche (70s jazz/rock). Metheny stated he was trying to get away from this with Bright Size Life.

Yeh it's true... but to me it's more rock-style thing... maybe these rock-influenced guitarists in jazz-rock and fusion... I am not sure jazz players really did that...

Wes' thing lines-octaves-chords is straightforward way too... but it was original on teh instrument and performed with great taste which makes it special.

**Jonah** · 01-12-2018, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Most people in the past thought everything would be wonderful when they got to Heaven (if they were good).

My friend (also Russian but he's been living in Europe for 20 years now) used to joke: Don't forget that citizens of Russia who do not live properly, after death.... go back to Russia again.

**christianm77** · 01-12-2018, 03:10 PM

Such an amazing point. That’s why I think it’s important to enjoy the moment of making music, for all its imperfections. It’s a hoary quote, but:

But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sun rise

And if it pleases you, practice :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 01-12-2018, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Most people in the past thought everything would be wonderful when they got to Heaven (if they were good).

There was a verse in a tune by early 2000's indie rock band "Pedro the Lion" that I thought was so fitting here...

When I get to heaven
I'll be greeted warmly
Surrounded by the angels
As Jesus takes my hand

And I'll recieve a mansion
On the river Jordan
And a crown of diamonds
For the race well run

And I won't ever lock my doors
I will trust my neighbors
Confident that they deserve
To be there in heaven too.

**christianm77** · 01-12-2018, 04:45 PM

Yeh it's true... but to me it's more rock-style thing... maybe these rock-influenced guitarists in jazz-rock and fusion... I am not sure jazz players really did that...

Sure, it is primarily a problem with jazz/rock. But as a player I have found that this is the most obvious template for soloing.

I think Miles was adroit in how he balanced and contrasted soloists to create his recordings. The Coltrane/Miles contrast is an obvious example.

Part of the art of shaping a jazz performance is obviously thinking about how solo order/trading/bass solos/drums solos affects the overall arc of the performance.

Wes' thing lines-octaves-chords is straightforward way too... but it was original on teh instrument and performed with great taste which makes it special.

Of course. No criticism of Wes, he made it his own....

**Flat** · 01-13-2018, 11:24 PM

I just wanted to say I'm feeling a little better about myself after reading posts from cats who can really play well saying they have trouble remembering tunes. This is one of my many weaknesses as well. Remembering the changes.

Which is weird to me. All my life I have had--modesty aside for a moment--a truly excellent memory for the lyrics of pop and rock tunes. Freakishly good. It's like a party trick. My parents would entertain houseguests...prop me up and "let's play stump the kid." Sinatra, Bacharach...music I didn't actively listen to, didn't really care for, but that was just in the air.

Words stick, but the changes to even basic real book tunes...here today, gone tomorrow.

**sunnysideup** · 01-14-2018, 04:10 AM

The thing about remembering tunes...

well the tunes haven't changed much - the standards today were written over half a century ago. In those days they were part of the popular culture - everyone knew them.

But these days they are not part of the popular culture any more. Hardly anyone knows them.

When I started playing standards I had never heard of most of them, and I'm one of the older guys on the forum.

And I'd never have listened to them if I wasn't "studying" them. I thought most of them were just corny old stuff. After all I grew up on pop, rock, blues, fusion, bebop, reggae, punk, new Romantic and trance - in that order (with folk somewhere in there).

Now that I've listened to most of the songbook, and played quite a bit of it, I appeciate it a lot more, and find it easier to remember (slightly!).

Back in the golden days, the pro players would have played those tunes thousands of times - maybe 2 or 3 sets a night for years - but those days are long gone!

**paulcw16** · 01-15-2018, 11:36 AM

...I will always be better than yesterday.

**m_d** · 01-17-2018, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

finding OUR THING.

I agree with a lot of what's been posted but I think this is the crux or it. Being yourself on the guitar, at a reasonable level of course (because there's not escaping being yourself at any level). There's a point of mastery, which I've crossed in my day job and a couple of sports, that I feel I haven't reached yet on the guitar, but it's a spot where all or most the grunt work is behind you, and you're reasonably confident about what you do and can focus more on creativity, and any further direction you might set your mind to. I'm a family man now and how all this will translate in the outside world is almost irrelevant to me.

**paulcw16** · 01-17-2018, 09:57 AM

Very true!! We do what we can. If we wanted to be be elite, we would have gone to conservatory and practiced 8 hours a day. Find your balance; family, kids......guitar.......whatever.....

**christianm77** · 01-17-2018, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by m_d

where all or most the grunt work is behind you

I feel grunt work ---> infinity

A players personality is as defined by what they don't do as what they do.

**PB+J** · 01-17-2018, 06:20 PM

I'm a B student, musically. I can work hard and get better, and i do, but I'm a B student.

The B student is the best to be, really, your reach is always exceeding your grasp and so you are always interested. "The midas touch of expertise" is the thing i dread. Mastery equals boredom.

**paulcw16** · 01-18-2018, 08:55 AM

PB+J I think you'll find this very interesting. http://www.minrec.org/wilson/pdfs/Bo...Repetition.pdf

**p1p** · 01-19-2018, 08:02 AM

Interesting thread!

I couldn't decide on one answer though, as I'd like them all. I think in order to have (or 'be') one of those answers, you need a few of the others - a lot of overlap maybe?

**p1p** · 01-19-2018, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by PB+J

I'm a B student, musically. I can work hard and get better, and i do, but I'm a B student.

The B student is the best to be, really, your reach is always exceeding your grasp and so you are always interested. "The midas touch of expertise" is the thing i dread. Mastery equals boredom.

With regards to 'mastery equals boredom'..

This made me think of that story of Benson going to check out Grant Green playing, and bumping into Wes there too. What we consider 'mastery' doesn't mean a thing to the 'masters' - guessing they were there to learn something new and interesting.

**Donnie** · 01-19-2018, 06:08 PM

I'm finding a oddity in my life now that I've reached the age of 62, possibly retiring this year from full time work in the Medical Field. I've been playing mostly in a Trio (for the past 5 years) about 12-15 dates a year, and in a Quintet (2 violins, Bassist, Drummer, and me sitting in on rhythm guitar), once in a while, though they now have mutually decided to take fewer gigs. Mid December I was asked if I'd join another Quintet (Pianist, Bassist, Drummer, lead "Telecaster" player, and me on rhythm), 2 weekends a month. The "oddity" is that the older I get, the more opportunities seem to come my way to play out. I've had to tighten up on what I know, so I run through my chords in different keys more than ever in an effort to keep sharp. Maybe the older we get, the more mature our playing gets, the less "show boating" we feel the need for, and the more the rest of the group (for me anyway), telling us to turn it up a bit more. Maybe, just maybe, it's because I don't have any desire to be a full time, working Guitarist like I did in my youth.

**tonedeaf** · 02-14-2018, 10:27 PM

Better than I was yesterday.

**dallasblues** · 04-25-2018, 04:24 PM

If I'm being truly honest, I've always measured myself and my goals to my musical heroes. In other words, I wanted to sound like, or have the talent, of "famous player x". Success to me meant I'd be scorching endless solos with fire coming from my fingertips in front of packed venues to raving reviews of course. Anything less than that would be a disappointment. The truth of the matter is that I was always disappointed and would always be with that mindset. Comparing myself to any other musician isn't constructive.

Today, I try to maintain realistic goals. I just simply wanna play what the song needs and what feels right to me. No more, no less.

**Boston Joe** · 05-10-2018, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by dallasblues

The truth of the matter is that I was always disappointed and would always be with that mindset. Comparing myself to any other musician isn't constructive.

I read a great quote a while back. I don't know who said it, though:

"Comparison is the thief of joy."

**Binyomin** · 05-13-2018, 09:07 PM

I want to feel that the great expanse of musical possibilities is open to me. That doesn't mean being a technically impressive player, but something like really learning and applying the theory and really developing my ears.

**Ozymandias** · 05-16-2018, 01:07 PM

I had a book by Carol Kaye in which she advised aspiring bass players to study jazz, even if they had no aspirations to become jazz musicians, because it would make them better musicians than sticking to rock/pop/whatever.

And that's pretty much the spirit in which I study and play jazz. I enjoy listening to jazz, I enjoy playing jazz, I enjoy the expansion of my musical horizons that comes with working with jazz ideas, I think that when I'm creating music in other genres my dabbling in jazz gives me a wider palette to draw from.

But I have no aspirations to being a serious jazz musician. I very much doubt I ever had the talent, and if I did I didn't start to develop it early enough or seriously enough (I started teaching myself rock/blues guitar around the age of 17).

Currently I play in a swing band of the Sinatra/Buble type, and in a jazz quintet that covers territory from Miles through to the Yellowjackets. We're not close to pro standard but we're enthusiastic. It's fun, but you couldn't claim it was art.

I also write and record music which could be described as jazz-tinged vocal pop (with influences from r'n'b/soul/hip-hop/latin etc) and for me that's the more serious enterprise, because within these technically less demanding genres I think I at least have a chance of doing genuinely creative work, whereas as a jazz player I know I'll always be a hack.