[Beginner] Is there an consensual better set of chords shapes ?

[Grant McEvers]

This is uncalled for. I guess you took offense at the original "garbage in-garbage out"? But at least it wasn't ad hominem, directed at a specific person. No need for name-calling.

The overall point - that more variety of information over the web isn't what's needed, but instead, someone to help you organize all of it - is a valid point, and at the heart of the OP. I don't think he meant it as a direct insult to previous posters.

I don't know if you're new, but get to know people before laying into them maybe? NSJ offers a lot of helpful posts.

I'll tell you what is uncalled for, Matt. A guy putting down my efforts to learn here at JGO and passing them off as a waste of time, yes, the "garbage in-garbage out" comment.

You yourself as a contributing guru to this site should be offended. His attack on me is also an attack on you.

As far as your "I don't know if you're new, but get to know people before laying into them maybe?" comment, I wonder if he cared to get to know me before he blasted?

No matter. I've moved on to a friendlier site. There's an air of snobbery here at JGO that I've noticed since I came onboard. And I'm not referring only to his post. It seems to be pervasive. I'm not talking about you, but you've been here a long time and I know you know the characters I'm talking about.

So last post, sorry to go out on a sour note, but I don't have time for this. Peace and goodwill to you.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Not a guru for sure. I think I'm mistaken for Warnock most of the time. Apologies to him. Oh well...

[cosmic gumbo]

I've moved on to a friendlier site. There's an air of snobbery here at JGO that I've noticed since I came onboard. And I'm not referring only to his post. It seems to be pervasive. I'm not talking about you, but you've been here a long time and I know you know the characters I'm talking about.

So last post, sorry to go out on a sour note, but I don't have time for this. Peace and goodwill to you.

[destinytot]

[christianm77]

I did 1 3 7 on the a string and 1 7 3 on the e string

[pauln]

Each and every author considers that learning chords is the required first step… ok

I started with soloing single notes because I wanted to solo (and didn't know any better). I taught myself, and it was a few years before I looked at playing chords.

To my surprise, grasping chords made perfect sense approaching them after having learned to solo first; I made up chords easily as needed. I still make up my chords to this day, often in concert.

I've often wondered if the official "chords first" approach should be reviewed; even beginning pianists start with notes and scales.

Since you are a bass player, you have a similar situation - coming at the guitar with a single note background, even better from an instrument that is mechanically the same... I'm not advising you skip chords and go straight to soloing, but I would seriously recommend you consider exploring with what you already know to make up your own chords. It would be great for your hands and your ears, and your understanding of what's going on. Then let your books naturally back fill the theory concepts you recognize within what you have independently discovered.

You know, the switch from playing guitar to playing bass is almost always an unhappy one because so little of guitaring connects to the fundamental attributes of good bassing; but the move from bass to guitar has a lot of potential - perhaps the greatest becoming a guitarist with a kind of telepathic musical connection to bassists by virtue of having been one...

[NSJ]

This is basically the process I went through:

1. 7th chord “grips”- In root position and 3 inversions, from the nut to the 12th fret, across each string set —- 12 different drop two chords in three string sets; eight different drop three chords in two string sets; four different drop two and four chords in one string set. 20 different versions of each chord.

2. Triads in root position and to inversions across four different strengths sets — 12 different versions of each chord across and up the neck.

3. Spread triads in three different forms, in basically three separate string sets, Across and up the neck: 153, 315, 531– nine different versions of each chord.

4. Guide tones, both 7 to 3 and 3 to 7, across three separate string sets, for major, minor and dominant chords . six different versions of each chord across and up the neck. Six different versions for each chord.

5. Intervals and dyads separate and apart from guide tones, often as harmonized scale notes - major and minor seconds, major and minor thirds, perfect fourths, perfect fifths major and minor sixths, major and minor sevenths , octaves, 10th, 11th, 13ths. Of critical importance or thirds and six, and the octave displacement of the same, i.e. 10th and 13th. These determine major and minor tonalities, Also use of the tritone and the octave displacement of the tritone as a substitute for a secondary dominant, in lieu of a V of V,etc.

Basically this is a shit load of work. I’m still doing it. It brings up a cardinal issue: you can’t learn chords without learning the instrument and learning the fingerboard. When I started taking lessons, I was told that functional fingerboard competence is a five-year process. I believe it. And that’s just functional competence.

Learning chords is synonymous with learning the instrument: this is been my experience. that’s why you have to have a systematic and well thought out approach in which you are as comfortable going up and down the neck while at the same time going across the neck.

[Grant McEvers]

I know I said I'd go after my last post, but after seeing Cosmic Gumbo's parting shot I just had to come back for one more response.

This a**hole is exactly what I've referred to when I spoke about the snobbery here. A troll waiting in the wings, surveying posts, looking for an opportunity to offer a snide remark. He thinks he's elevated by putting others down. In reality he is a sad person who thrives on hate.

This is the kind of member who sends newbies packing. Moderators, get smart and send HIM packing.

[mr. beaumont]

Cosmic Gumbo established himself as a smart-ass who also knows what he's talking about years ago here.

[emanresu]

This is basically the process I went through:

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Yep it looks insane work but if doing for fun, it's not that bad. Just that can't really set a goal of finishing it all in 9 months or something like that. But eventually, it will start to come together... my case much later than I thought it was. Still needs work but I can see some results now.

But also - in real life, all that could be overkill. Good comp can be done with much less work than was in the list. I consider those thing as "extra value", not something to get nuts about

[christianm77]

I started with soloing single notes because I wanted to solo (and didn't know any better). I taught myself, and it was a few years before I looked at playing chords.

To my surprise, grasping chords made perfect sense approaching them after having learned to solo first; I made up chords easily as needed. I still make up my chords to this day, often in concert.

I've often wondered if the official "chords first" approach should be reviewed; even beginning pianists start with notes and scales.

Since you are a bass player, you have a similar situation - coming at the guitar with a single note background, even better from an instrument that is mechanically the same... I'm not advising you skip chords and go straight to soloing, but I would seriously recommend you consider exploring with what you already know to make up your own chords. It would be great for your hands and your ears, and your understanding of what's going on. Then let your books naturally back fill the theory concepts you recognize within what you have independently discovered.

You know, the switch from playing guitar to playing bass is almost always an unhappy one because so little of guitaring connects to the fundamental attributes of good bassing; but the move from bass to guitar has a lot of potential - perhaps the greatest becoming a guitarist with a kind of telepathic musical connection to bassists by virtue of having been one...

That's a really interesting perspective.

I feel that hearing chords as collections of moving lines together is a lot better than thinking in grips, but I always assumed that you'd have to learn grips first. But perhaps not....

In terms of bass playing, what do you think the main thing is? For me, I'm aware that bass players aim for line cliches and strong lines through the changes and value these things a lot... Also classic ways of playing turnarounds... For instance, in the first two bars of a blues:

C C/E | F F#o7 | C/G etc

While I feel guitarists are often kind of looking at the root movement...

I also think that in traditional changes playing you can organise these lines into thirds and oblique motion and stuff...

Is that what you mean?

[Noah D'Innocenzo]

So is all that going to make you a feeling, emotional, and real player? Are you better off analyzing every moment of a measure, making sure you are hitting this or that note on the upbeat or the downbeat? Who cares about all the mountains of information out there? Is that music, or just intellectual game playing?

Did Montgomery take lessons? He didn't even read. He just listened and copied. Then he made it his own. Many others did too. You didn't take lessons back then on the "internet". You just studied your hero's licks and did your best to sound like they did.

The old masters didn't take music nearly as seriously as we do, picking apart every single note. They were much more cool about it all.

Although I certainly agree with what you’re saying and I’m very much from that school of thought, then why are you buying these books and courses and looking for tips online? If you truly believe what you say, then why aren’t you just transcribing your a** off?

Maybe you are, but I’m just pointing out that you’re contradicting yourself by saying all Wes did was copy his masters and add his own taste. And if he couldn’t read then he certainly wasn’t buying any music books. So why did you choose to buy music books? I think it’s because you know that although direct transcription is a very VERY important element, you still need some sort of structure and North Star. If you didn’t think so, you wouldn’t have bought any books. I’m sorry to hear you were scammed by a teacher but that does not mean all teachers are bad and that they’re all unnecessary.

To be completely honest, I believe if you and NSJ met in the middle, you’d have the proper answer. A teacher is most definitely important, if not at the least extremely useful especially in the beginning. They’ll not only give you direction but they’ll point out what you are to naive and ignorant to see or notice in your own playing because you’re not advanced enough yet to notice. As the old saying goes “you don’t know what you don’t know until you know.”

Also, any decent teacher will have you transcribing anyway. But they’ll give you something manageable that builds momentum and encouragement towards playing. Often, if left on your own, you end up floundering, drifting from tip to tip and never really focusing or learning anything.

Just my 2 cents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[destinytot]

An f-bomb riot:

[destinytot]

Joe Mantegna on top form in David Mamet's House of Games.

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[Jonathan0996]

This is the level where one needs a good PRIVATE teacher to sort it all out and organize it.

Any sort of advice on the internet obtained on the cheap, where one thinks of strictly in terms of short cuts, no matter how well-intentioned, will essentially be: "garbage in-garbage out".

A good private teacher can help organize ESSENTIAL information in fundamental ways that will help develop better habits and more clear ways of thinking about this music.

Amen.

[Jonathan0996]

The first chord you mentioned with the 1st and 5 strings muted would be the bare-bones version. It has one of each chord tone in the voicing (1, b7, 3, 5). The other voicing you mentioned has an extra 5th and an extra root (on top.) In general, id go with the first voicing just because it’s the one that you’ll start adding tensions to over time. The second voicing is basically the barre chord form of a dominant. It can be nice for chord melodies at times because it’s a lot meatier.

There's no one right way, of course, but I tend to agree with this. It's helpful to think in terms of what you need and what you can omit. What you absolutely need are the guide tones: third and seventh. In a rhythm section somebody else will have the root and almost invariably someone will have the fifth. You can always include those tones, of course, but they aren't essential. Often less is better. And when you start adding 13ths and flat 5s and raised 11ths, it's a lot easier to build a chord on that guide tone platform. Try working with the pared down voicings, get them in your ear and see what you like.

I also agree with the poster who recommended a good teacher. Books are great, but they're no substitute for a teacher. A good teacher can save you a lot of wasted steps and point you in the right direction. I think it's really the best way to go at this.

Good luck and have fun.

[destinytot]

All it takes to set your own 'curriculum' is willingness to use one's own ears and thinking, some peace and quiet, and - perhaps - some tools:


Better than having a teacher define one's needs - unless one is either an infant or one is interested only in one of the styles so far removed from black blues-based 'jazz' as to be quite alien to it.

I think Wes was right when he said, "The player builds his confidence by working out his problems himself":

[Vladan]

Joe Mantegna on top form in David Mamet's House of Games.

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One of my favourite long forgotten movies. Thanks!