What makes a good jazz player "good"?

**Gibson0918** · 09-19-2009, 06:16 AM

I'm just kind of curious of the elements every good jazz player should have. What's your opinion?

**Little Jay** · 09-19-2009, 08:58 AM

Well, define "good", what do you mean by that? Skilled? Technically advanced? Tastefull? Admirable? Fast?

I think if you are able to play the music you hear in your head without technical restraints, you are a "good" player. If someone's choice of notes, timing, etc. doesn't please you, one tends to say "he's not good" but that's not true of course, you just don't like his music. Too bad for you!

Of course, sometimes you can hear that someone has not yet the technical capabillity to get the notes he hears in his head out of his instrument. Maybe then you could say he not a "good" player because he is not there yet, but I would be hesitating to define it as such.

**fep** · 09-19-2009, 09:19 AM

Since you said 'good' and didn't say 'great' I won't say, 'genius'.

Peter Sprague, a great jazz guitarist imo, played this week at the college I attend.

During Q & A he said, 'I wish there was some magic words or a magic pill I could give you to take you're playing to another level. But what it takes is tons of practice, years and years of practice...'

So tons of practice is one of the things that makes a jazz guitarist good (and yes you have to practice the right things).

**Gibson0918** · 09-19-2009, 06:10 PM

Ok, I was just wondering. I'm wanting to really get into jazz. I've been studying music theory for quite some time now but I don't think I completely understand what is expected of a jazz player.

**fep** · 09-19-2009, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Gibson0918

Ok, I was just wondering. I'm wanting to really get into jazz. I've been studying music theory for quite some time now but I don't think I completely understand what is expected of a jazz player.

There's some really accomplished jazz guitarists in town, the ones I'm thinking of are older than 50...

When you see a couple (or more) of them get together to play tunes they seem to have a huge repetiore... I'm talking 1000 or more tunes. It seems like they all know all the jazz standards - no sheet music - by ear. And they play them all really well.

Not only that, they seem to remember all sorts of variations of each tune... Like Summertime whether they play the first 4 measures

|Am7 Bm7 | C6 Bm7 |Am7 Bm7 | Am7 A7+
or
Am7 | Bb7 | Am7 E7b9 | Am7 A7+
or
Whatever and in any key for that matter...

It doesn't matter, they all seem to know it, to hear it. Then they might say after, so you like the Gerswin changes, or you like Miles version etc. They seem to be encyclopedic

They're not playing memorized tunes in the sense that they have muscle memory of how to play these tunes, they're remembering them by ear.

**X-500** · 09-20-2009, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Gibson0918

What makes a jazz player "good"?

That's easy. Anyone with the opposite of my playing abilities!

Seriously though, IHO, and at the risk of being patronizing, that question is almost exclusively subjective. For example, "What makes food good?" "What makes art good?" You'll get as many answers as there are stars in the heavens.

**Stackabones** · 09-20-2009, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by fep

Since you said 'good' and didn't say 'great' I won't say, 'genius'.

Peter Sprague, a great jazz guitarist imo, played this week at the college I attend.

During Q & A he said, 'I wish there was some magic words or a magic pill I could give you to take you're playing to another level. But what it takes is tons of practice, years and years of practice...'

So tons of practice is one of the things that makes a jazz guitarist good (and yes you have to practice the right things).

I always wonder about players who say that kind of stuff. The best players do practice, but the great ones play.

**derek** · 09-20-2009, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Stackabones

I always wonder about players who say that kind of stuff. The best players do practice, but the great ones play.

They play alright, after years and years of practice.

**vsaumarez** · 09-28-2009, 08:34 PM

That's a tough one, because not everyone agrees on who is a good player. Someone who has reached the top of their tree is a pretty good indicator, but then are many good amateurs too. Musicianship is over-riding goal that most strive towards, and it's an all encompassing term that incorporates technical ability, ear, creativity, intellect, sense of rhythm, fluency, timing, and how to move, or woe an audience. So it's not about one or two things, but the whole package, and how well they all fit together.

**joe pass jr** · 09-28-2009, 09:01 PM

I think the question here is " how do I learn to improvise music well " since Jazz by definition is simply improvisation.

The style that surrounds it is broad. In general though. 'Jazz' musicians are at the top of the pack when it comes to understanding what is being played. Understanding it to the point that you know several ways to manipulate that particular progression or melody or what ever with only a moments notice.

Alot of these experienced players, like fep mentioned, have two advantages. 1) They have simply been playing for a real long time. So they know alot of tunes back to front and they have learnt them in many differen't arrangements.
2) They (the better ones) practice ALOT... I mean, forget about drinking with your buddies, forget about chasing girls. Spend a few years just practising your instrument every night.

I think it was John Coltrane who was known to practice so much that 'if he was awake, he was practising'.... He would even practice between sets, AT A GIG!!

I will dispute what fep said about them playing by ear though. I mean , it is possible to play tunes by ear. When your transposing tunes to new keys on the spot though, it ain't an ear thing. Its experience and knowledge and a bit of memory Im sure.

So, the secret is dedication and discipline. Nothing more. Great musicians are like Great physicists or Great archaeologists or great anything. They throw themselves into it with every ounce of energy they have. Nothing else matters.

**Iamdagmar** · 09-30-2009, 09:10 PM

This is a picture of Mary Lou W, my 3rd guitar. She is made of Cooked Flame Maple with a Western Red Cedar Top. The pickup is a Jason Lollar, Charlie Christian.

**derek** · 10-01-2009, 10:42 AM

Lots of interesting responses, but for me there are some concrete skills needed to be a good jazz player. Here they are in no certain order.

Ability to sight read a tune never played before on the bandstand.
Ability to count in a tune, with ideas for intro and outro.
Ability to comp for other instruments, staying out of the way of keys, but offering harmonic information to the soloist to play off of.
Ability to solo over any tune in most tempos. Obviously, one is going to be able to do a better job on tunes that have been shedded.
Ability to play solo, duo, trio and in larger band settings, adjusting as role changes.
Ability to communicate quickly and clearly to others on the bandstand.
Ability to play at most tempos, and any time sig.

These are the sorts of things I aspire to with a level of competency that make others in the band sound good, and will get asked back. Imo

**randalljazz** · 10-01-2009, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by derek

Lots of interesting responses, but for me there are some concrete skills needed to be a good jazz player. Here they are in no certain order.

Ability to sight read a tune never played before on the bandstand.
Ability to count in a tune, with ideas for intro and outro.
Ability to comp for other instruments, staying out of the way of keys, but offering harmonic information to the soloist to play off of.
Ability to solo over any tune in most tempos. Obviously, one is going to be able to do a better job on tunes that have been shedded.
Ability to play solo, duo, trio and in larger band settings, adjusting as role changes.
Ability to communicate quickly and clearly to others on the bandstand.
Ability to play at most tempos, and any time sig.

These are the sorts of things I aspire to with a level of competency that make others in the band sound good, and will get asked back. Imo

yikes! i think i'll just go back to bed...

**musicalbodger** · 10-01-2009, 03:22 PM

Nobody's mentioned the most important word of all — swing. Cos if you don't, you ain't.

**NSJ** · 10-01-2009, 05:34 PM

Big Ears! Or as Joshua Redman said about Kurt Rosenwinkel, "his ears are huge!"

**musicalbodger** · 10-01-2009, 05:40 PM

"his ears are huge!"

but if he don't swing, he could be an elephant.

No disrespect to KR, just making a point.

**Smitty** · 10-01-2009, 11:37 PM

What makes a jazz player--or for that matter, any musician--good? The say something when they play.
One could get more into it than that, but there's really no point.

**franco6719** · 10-02-2009, 04:41 AM

Billion dollar question. There are really three sorts of view: 1) "you either have it you don't" genetic school, 2) you practice enormously and focus hard on the right kinds of material in addition to years of experience playing, etc... 3) a combination of the first two. I suspect three is the answer, as in most things.

**abracadabra** · 10-02-2009, 08:26 AM

Surely we also need to consider the context.

If you're not interested in making a career out of it, or even playing much with others, then the criteria would be very different than for someone who, at the other end of the scale, wants to become a commercial success. For the latter, I'd suggest all the things already mentioned, plus a large dollop of luck.

**franco6719** · 10-03-2009, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by abracadabra

Surely we also need to consider the context.

If you're not interested in making a career out of it, or even playing much with others, then the criteria would be very different than for someone who, at the other end of the scale, wants to become a commercial success. For the latter, I'd suggest all the things already mentioned, plus a large dollop of luck.

Million dollar answer!!

**Gibson0918** · 10-08-2009, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by abracadabra

Surely we also need to consider the context.

If you're not interested in making a career out of it, or even playing much with others, then the criteria would be very different than for someone who, at the other end of the scale, wants to become a commercial success. For the latter, I'd suggest all the things already mentioned, plus a large dollop of luck.

Well that's the thing i'm actually going to college for musical performance in jazz, I'm still going through basic classes right now and I won't start jazz band till next year (I got a little less than a year to get ready) That's the main reason I was asking this question. I practice several several hours a day sometimes it's all I will do.

I'm really happy that I got many resonses I completely forgot that I posted this, it really helps a lot.

**Gibson0918** · 10-08-2009, 11:28 PM

And Derek your post scared the hell out of me. :|

**derek** · 10-09-2009, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Gibson0918

And Derek your post scared the hell out of me. :|

Yeah I know, it scares the hell out of me too. However, most of these things are skills the pro guys I know have. I am certainly not there, but have a clear vision about what it takes to be a good player. In my opinion of course.