Harmonising in 4ths, Augmented anomaly? is it my ears?

**Babaluma** · 07-07-2017, 02:57 PM

I have a very simple question you guys maybe able to help me with.

I have been jamming along practicing various harmonies, 3rds, 4ths, 6ths and 7ths (9ths I need to get used to as rather dissonant!). However I was interested in the anomaly I found with 4ths. If I play a simple G major scale and harmonise in 4ths by playing the Lydian mode from C I find the augmented 4th step of this mode (F#) rather jarring compared to playing this step as a simple 4th (F).

All the other harmonies I tried fit perfectly when I play the related mode. If I play G major scale and then harmonise with B Phrygian all the notes from this mode sound good the same with E Aeolian for a 6th harmony.

Is there a theoretical explanation why the Lydian mode has this treacherous dissonant step compared to the other modes? Or is it just my ears that are hearing a dissonance which is not there!

Thanks!

**Guitarzen** · 07-07-2017, 03:21 PM

I think I'm probably not the only one confused by your post. When you say "harmonise in 4ths", do you mean quartal harmony or just that you are playing two notes that are a 4th apart? Same question for "a 6th harmony". Actually I'm not sure I even understood one sentence in your post, you seem to be using theoretical terms without any understanding of what they mean. Sorry! That's just how it comes across. And not being able to understand your questions makes it hard to answer you.

Secondly, every major scale, and thus every mode, contains the augmented 4th interval. The theoretical explanation as to why it exists is because the major scale exists, and the major scale is based off of a set of intervals (whole steps & half steps), which define the sound of the major scale. The augmented 4th interval wasn't invented because of the lydian mode. The phrasing of your question is a bit confusing, but the gist of what I am saying here should still answer your question.

**Rob MacKillop** · 07-07-2017, 03:50 PM

Play the interval C - F# and then play a D7 chord. I bet it doesn't sound so jarring now?

**cosmic gumbo** · 07-08-2017, 06:39 AM

Are we talking about quartal harmony (harmonizing in 4ths), or are we talking about Lydian mode, built on the 4th degree/note of the major scale? Confusing...

**Babaluma** · 07-08-2017, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Guitarzen

I think I'm probably not the only one confused by your post. When you say "harmonise in 4ths", do you mean quartal harmony or just that you are playing two notes that are a 4th apart? Same question for "a 6th harmony". Actually I'm not sure I even understood one sentence in your post, you seem to be using theoretical terms without any understanding of what they mean. Sorry! That's just how it comes across. And not being able to understand your questions makes it hard to answer you.

Secondly, every major scale, and thus every mode, contains the augmented 4th interval. The theoretical explanation as to why it exists is because the major scale exists, and the major scale is based off of a set of intervals (whole steps & half steps), which define the sound of the major scale. The augmented 4th interval wasn't invented because of the lydian mode. The phrasing of your question is a bit confusing, but the gist of what I am saying here should still answer your question.

Sorry I just mean playing two notes a 4th apart.

**Babaluma** · 07-08-2017, 09:11 AM

Sorry I am not very clear at all. I am not sure I can explain very well at all or be clearer due to my lack on knowledge sorry.

I was just talking of notes that are a 4th apart harmonising. So if I want to play a lead and then play another melodic line a 4th or a 6th apart. Each harmony part I played sounded good apart from that one note when playing in 4ths, the F#.

**ragman1** · 07-08-2017, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Babaluma

Sorry I am not very clear at all. I am not sure I can explain very well at all or be clearer due to my lack on knowledge sorry.

I was just talking of notes that are a 4th apart harmonising. So if I want to play a lead and then play another melodic line a 4th or a 6th apart. Each harmony part I played sounded good apart from that one note when playing in 4ths, the F#.

You must be more clear!

Let's say you are in C major. The notes are C D E F G A B. The scale, two notes apart in 4ths, is C F, D G, E A, F B, G C, A D, B E. That works with the chords in C major - Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5.

I think what you are saying is that you're playing the G major scale over chords in C major to get a Lydian effect. All the F's become F#'s.

That's not going to work with ALL the chords whether you play 4ths or not - or any other intervals. It basically only works over the Cmaj7 chord. And possibly over Em7 and Am7 chords. It cannot work with any chord containing a natural F for obvious reasons.

If this isn't what you mean, I give up :-)

**Rob MacKillop** · 07-08-2017, 11:23 AM

Babaluma, don't give up on asking questions, even if you can't articulate them well. We have all been there, and some of us are there now.

The interval C to F# is known as an augmented fourth, and for centuries was regarded by many people as dissonant. But dissonance isn't a bad thing. It often begs to be resolved into its opposite: consonance. This gives the music a forward momentum: tension to release.

I mentioned the D7 chord as it contains C and F#, and, being the Dominant V7 chord, wants to head to the Tonic G Major chord. This is the foundation of Western music. And look at the movement of the notes. The C of the D7 wants to resolve a semitone downwards to the B of the G chord, and the F# of the D7 chord wants to rise upwards to the G of the G chord. This is called contrary motion, one going down, the other going up. Again, this is all about forward momentum, with tension and release. Without that tension, the music could sound quite bland.

So, you are right to highlight the dissonance of the interval - your ears are teaching you something. By the way, the Catholic Church banned its use, and called it The Devil In Music. Jimi Hendrix used it (transposed to E and Bb) to summon up some dodgy spirits at the opening to Purple Haze. In time you will grow to love this interval. You can't have jazz without it!

Edit: One more thing...

C to D is a tone. D to E is another tone. And E to F# is yet another tone. That's three tones - what we call a tritone. Tritones are BIG THINGS in jazz. So, again, your ear is pointing you towards important things.

I hope this helps. If it doesn't, no harm has been done, I'm sure. Good luck with your studies.

**ragman1** · 07-09-2017, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

I think the OP is simply harmonizing the G major scale in 4ths.

Yeah, but over C. So he's going to get a lot of clashing with the natural F. I think that's what he complaining about.

Isn't it?

**ragman1** · 07-09-2017, 02:12 PM

Well, I'm no expert and I know you know your stuff so I may have to plead defeat

I've just played it and the C/F# does sound a bit odd. But is that because the top note is C so it sounds as though it's a C scale with a funny note in it rather than a G scale? Probably not!

But the OP wanted the theoretical explanation so I guess that's it. Thanks.

slinks away

**Melodic Dreamer** · 07-09-2017, 04:19 PM

It is one of those things your ear will get use to the more you hear it. One day you will wake up and it won't sound weird, but familiar.

**Babaluma** · 07-10-2017, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop

Babaluma, don't give up on asking questions, even if you can't articulate them well. We have all been there, and some of us are there now.

The interval C to F# is known as an augmented fourth, and for centuries was regarded by many people as dissonant. But dissonance isn't a bad thing. It often begs to be resolved into its opposite: consonance. This gives the music a forward momentum: tension to release.

I mentioned the D7 chord as it contains C and F#, and, being the Dominant V7 chord, wants to head to the Tonic G Major chord. This is the foundation of Western music. And look at the movement of the notes. The C of the D7 wants to resolve a semitone downwards to the B of the G chord, and the F# of the D7 chord wants to rise upwards to the G of the G chord. This is called contrary motion, one going down, the other going up. Again, this is all about forward momentum, with tension and release. Without that tension, the music could sound quite bland.

So, you are right to highlight the dissonance of the interval - your ears are teaching you something. By the way, the Catholic Church banned its use, and called it The Devil In Music. Jimi Hendrix used it (transposed to E and Bb) to summon up some dodgy spirits at the opening to Purple Haze. In time you will grow to love this interval. You can't have jazz without it!

Edit: One more thing...

C to D is a tone. D to E is another tone. And E to F# is yet another tone. That's three tones - what we call a tritone. Tritones are BIG THINGS in jazz. So, again, your ear is pointing you towards important things.

I hope this helps. If it doesn't, no harm has been done, I'm sure. Good luck with your studies.

@Rob MacKillop
Thanks very much, yes this is super helpful. Thanks for your patience I have a lot to learn

**Babaluma** · 07-10-2017, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Melodic Dreamer

It is one of those things your ear will get use to the more you hear it. One day you will wake up and it won't sound weird, but familiar.

@Melodic Dreamer
I am learning this everyday ha ha!

**Babaluma** · 07-10-2017, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

You must be more clear!

Let's say you are in C major. The notes are C D E F G A B. The scale, two notes apart in 4ths, is C F, D G, E A, F B, G C, A D, B E. That works with the chords in C major - Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5.

I think what you are saying is that you're playing the G major scale over chords in C major to get a Lydian effect. All the F's become F#'s.

That's not going to work with ALL the chords whether you play 4ths or not - or any other intervals. It basically only works over the Cmaj7 chord. And possibly over Em7 and Am7 chords. It cannot work with any chord containing a natural F for obvious reasons.

If this isn't what you mean, I give up :-)

@ragman1
this is very helpful even though it was not quite what I meant but that is my fault

I love this forum as every answer I find useful. Thanks very much for participating!