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Hey guys!
I have a bit of a peculiar question this time, so bare with me!
I've recently went from dabbling to more seriously into the world of jazz guitar. My previous main instrument was the drums, but I've played guitar for a very long time and I know all the basics of music theory.
I originally learned to navigate the guitar through interval shapes on the fretboard. I would just check out the key and spy the ascending/descending intervals in the score visually without almost ever thinking about notes. I've been focusing on the distance between notes rather than the notes them selves.
Now recently I've also started working more with woodwind and piano players and I notice they describe everything with individual notes. "Hey how does that super locrian scale in B go again?" and the answer will be recited from the heart in notes. This just goes way over my head as I expect them to start by naming the interval pattern. This is making me feel a bit insecure with my instrument.
Now that I think about it wouldn't knowing all the notes in any specific chord voicing for example help you find inversions and substitutions a lot easier as you know which notes are shared between chords?
Any tips on how to acquire this skill - to think of more in the notes rather than the distance between them? Hope this question makes sense.
Joonasamuel
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04-19-2017 05:18 PM
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Learn to play keys
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..or learn to play sax ...Hahaha ..couldn't resist, sorry
First: knowing intervals on the fretboard is nothing to sneeze at, it should be a skill that serves you well.
You know basic theory so you can build: scales, chords, keys, practice that. I made a big circle of 5ths, complete with key sigs and stuck it on my wall. Part of my practice routine then became to simply speak / think of the notes in each key ... I was getting to know the staff, as well as which notes to look for .. it's no good knowing all the notes if you don't know which ones you want at the moment ... knowing intervals should help here.
For just learning the notes on the fretboard, reading exercises can help.
I'm a jazz newbie ... i.e. lazy guitarist,
but I hope that helps.
-best,
Mike
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Learning this way was an epiphany for Nir Felder. He has some video resources you can check out if your interested.
cheers!
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From as similar thread..
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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IMO, you'll make a serious mistake by thinking you'll be able to navigate around the fretboard by intervals, without knowing the individual notes.
First, I don't think it's possible to play at a decent tempo doing this.
Second, you need a reference point, and most people relate to roots. This leads to stereotyped playing.
I think you're smart to recognize that this is a potential issue.
The ability to transpose fingerings around the fretboard can be a trap for the unwary. Also, your mind relates to individual pitches....try playing with a mistuned guitar sometime....your ability to pick out tunes will be impaired: Pitches are not just relative, they are also absolute--and exist in certain places on the fingerboard. Not knowing them will slow you down, and hurt your progress.
Learn them systematically...maybe playing through different keys in 4th's, e.g. c maj., then F, B flat etc. If you impose some order, it helps.
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Just to play Devil's advocate, I have to ask: Why bother?
String instruments are fundamentally different than keyed instruments. Keyed instruments are primarily memorization machines. Stringed instruments are pattern recognition machines. This is so much so that the brains of violinist are noticeably different PHYSICALLY than the brains of pianist. You can actually see the difference to the naked eye. Try Googling "violin brain fold".
Trying to learn how to play the guitar like it was a piano seems counter-productive. Rejoice and exploit the fact that your instrument is "key-less" in more ways than one.
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I suspect that the answer(s) are to know both the intervals and the individual notes on the fret board. The concepts are complementary. In an elemental sense musical harmony is based on intervals. But to communicate it is helpful to know the actual notes on the fret board. I do like to think of playing the guitar as a percussive piano like instrument. Certainly it has more in common with the piano than the woodwind or horn family of melody instruments.
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Okay, but violinists read music pretty well , and most guitarists don't. Just because violinists relate more strongly to pattern than pianists, that doesn't mean absolute pitch is useless to violinists or just a "piano thing". Originally Posted by rlrhett
Absolute pitch very often gives you a strong reference point for finding patterns, and likewise, patterns can help in finding pitch. But having facility with both Is ideal.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Again, just playing Devil's advocate, but I know a lot of SPECTACULAR fiddle players who can't read a note. Not all people who play that instrument well are classically trained.
That said, of course it is ideal to have both. I wish I could read music like I read the newspaper. For that matter, I wish I could process music like Derek Paravicini. He literally can't read a note, although he has perfect pitch. And perfect recall. And a perfect ear. Of course he has other limitations that make it so I doubt anyone would want to trade places with him.
I practice sight reading. Definitely not against it. Just pointing out that knowing what individual notes are in a Lydian Bb is essential for piano, no so much for guitar. Knowing that the pattern of a Lydian scale is wwwhwwh is important to guitar players, less so for pianist.
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Ok. If we're talking about playing by ear, that's its own conversation, but plenty of pianists are ear players as well. Those pianists who play by ear (and don't read music) don't have a profoundly better understanding of pitch than fiddle players who play by ear in the same way. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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Well, yeah, but you know fiddle players. We were talking violin. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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sight-read...Any tips on how to acquire this skill - to think of more in the notes rather than the distance between them? Hope this question makes sense.
I see fretboard as big pattern with note names and I can name any note immidiately.
This is because I played classical guitar since i was 7 (I do not think it's a special skill... it helps me of course but it does not make me a good musician.)
But! Knowing the note immidiately does not make you play any idea or any harmonic concept immidiately! This helps a lot of course but this is a thing you should develope separately (maybe all your life)...
It is like knowing reading the map ... you know that it is a forrest and it is a river, and it is a bridge and where they are etc. but the next thing will be to know all the the different routs between the objects... to know what these routes are in reality... in details in different time, season and weather.. with different vehicles...
So you see: this is just a basic knowledge.
That should not be a question...Now that I think about it wouldn't knowing all the notes in any specific chord voicing for example help you find inversions and substitutions a lot easier as you know which notes are shared between chords?
because it is how your creative freedom, your musicality will be realized...
Because of the thing I mentioned above I mostly see shapes as notes... that gives me possibility to drop out and add any note... to voice-lead the way I want (not the way shapes choose to do it))) etc.
There are players who do just fine without it... but they do not have this qiestion.
If this question comes to you, that means that you need to handle it, that this is something you need.Last edited by Jonah; 04-20-2017 at 04:03 AM.
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Many violinists also play piano. Just sayin'
Piano is the map of the (Western) musical universe.
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Most classical musicians play piano... at least they are expected to play... to certain degree.Many violinists also play piano. Just sayin'
When I was at musical school even drummers had to play some 'etude', some romantic piece, and plyphonic piece like Prelude anf Fugue from WTK.
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Somehow that's the most Russian thing I've ever heard. Originally Posted by Jonah
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Playing piano is a wonderful clarification of the mathematics of intervals and harmony. And the pattern is unvarying from the lowest bass note to the highest treble.
The guitar on the other hand in terms of the geography of the notes has more in common with the violin, though the tuning is slightly different. The "patterns" which people talk about here vary. But the guitar is a truly polyphonic instrument, like the piano. Perhaps that is more difficult in the learning phase, yet I don't think of it as an impediment once you "get the hang of it". It is just where the notes are on the fret board. I don't think of patterns - I just play what I hear which is about the connection between intervals and pitches and the geography of the fret board. Your fingers go where the correct notes are. Or at least most of the time.
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Intervals, note names. Yin and Yang and part of a balanced diet.
The way I see it, note names give you an essential sense of Absolute navigation, always knowing where you are and always relating to s note within an unchanging grid of chromaticism.
Intervals give you that essential ability to know, hear and feel your way in a Relative perspective. I'm always using both, and especially when it comes to motivic phrases, superimposing non diatonic tonality within a diatonic framework and knowing where you are from any note within a tonal centre, that intervallic training will prove to be a steadfast and reliable companion. That's your ear guiding you.
But yes you're right, knowing note names will be a more solid skill when knowing your place within the chromatic diatonic world of fixed keys...and communicating that to others.
Long story short, your own propensity and instinct about intervals is good. That's the way you hear and "see". Now expand your awareness by superimposing the grid of relative intervals on the fixed staff system. This will really help you in articulating chord structures especially in altered harmony.
Both skills are immensely useful and well worth the discipline of learning. Once you know them, repeated use will only strengthen these abilities and you WILL see why they are both important.
Just for myself, I'm an intervallic player. So when I'm playing, I don't have an awareness of note names nearly as much I do the aural place of each note relative to the key centre or sequence root. At speed, I'm hearing the lyric line and I don't feel I need to even know the names, but I hear my way into the next change. But awareness of the song form is ALWAYS there and anytime I have any ambiguity in my line, that touchstone is always there. I wouldn't have one without the other; it's the priority that makes your approach unique.
Just my thoughts.
David
Oh by the way, long ago, I created a two octave chart of note names spelled out. Then I took a piece of clear acetate and wrote the relative pitches of the scale intervals. When I hold the two against each other, and move from key to key, it's instantly apparent how the two relate to one another.
I use this with students and they instantly "see" it. It's my answer when students ask me why there are sharps and flats.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Only if you're playing too fast.
David
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Ha... good for you!Somehow that's the most Russian thing I've ever heard
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The guitar doesn't make any ****ing sense at all. Originally Posted by Veritas
I mean you could tune it in 4ths, an then it makes perfect sense, but then try playing a bar band gig lol.
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Boomching! Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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I think traditional guiatr tuning is about open posintion... folk guitar styles are usually about open strings (using capo in flamenco and bluegrass)..The guitar doesn't make any ****ing sense at all.
I mean you could tune it in 4ths, an then it makes perfect sense, but then try playing a bar band gig lol.
Early guitar and lutes - though had the same or even bigger scale - usually had longer body and the 'woking part of the neck was relatively short' - they tried to play open positions...
and last but not least... the temperance.. neither early music nor folk were not treated in turns of equal temperance... they did not car about transposing actually.
Modern guitar fretboard - especially electrics with sll these cutway bodies - is more like a piano keyboard.. and players especially in advabced styles think of 12 keys...
all jazz basic stuff is about closed positions and moveable shapes...
if you check early music guitar tutorials - they also use moveable shapes of course - but the main and basic stuff is all with open strings...
So probably tuning in 4ths seems more reasonable for modern guitar...
But!
Imho it almost turns guitar into a synth... everything becomes so even - maybe I am wrong.. much depends on a player...
But tradional tunings force you to look for an unexpected solutuins...
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Yeah I'm not into it. I know people who are though (and for whom Sweet Home Alabama becomes an exercise in digital independence.) Originally Posted by Jonah
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For me the thing is that any "discomfort" with the geography of the notes on the fret board, including the nature of standard tuning, is long since a thing of the distant past. So long ago that I cannot really recall that feeling. So for me the fret board geography of notes makes perfect sense. And if you wanted to mess with my mind, tune the strings all in fifths or make me simply play in DADGAD or whatever that is. It is a perfectly fine tuning for many finger stylists, but for me standard tuning is just peachy and presents no obstacles. I don't actually enjoy playing in open slide guitar tunings either. Just not my thing. Note I'm speaking solely of my preferences and not preaching to the choir or anyone else. And I love using open strings, harmonics, closed position playing......
Again speaking of my experience, I play by ear listening to what Joe Pass called the melodic thought (and harmonic) in the mind, and my subconscious takes me there. When I read a lead sheet with chord symbolism (Dm7b5, Abdim7....), my fingers just go there in lockstep with the melodic thought in my mind. I'm not saying I'm a second Joe Pass. Just that understanding intervals and notes on the fret board are not "mysterious" to me or even difficult. What becomes the foremost task in my playing is the quality of the melodic thought and execution of the harmony. And I also love playing piano and the harmonic insights that discipline brings. I actually think there is a synergy here. I believe playing piano has helped to make me a better guitarist and vice versa.
It is one thing to play what you hear and another to hear something worth playing. The latter is harder than the former.
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