The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've noticed on some of Frank Vignola's lesson videos that he sometimes deliberately plays his notes just slightly behind the beat which gives it a nice feel. I'm wondering if this is a common technique used by jazz musicians and if so, does the technique have a label?
    Last edited by emoshurchak; 03-10-2017 at 06:18 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Kenneth "Jethro" Burns, though predominately known as a Jazz Mandolin Player, also played very, very good guitar as heard on the Puritan Sessions, he was a Master of playing behind the beat and syncopation- often called The Great One!
    Last edited by Donnie; 03-10-2017 at 06:40 PM.

  4. #3

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    It is a very common technique, and as far as I know it's only called playing behind the beat, though I'm sure there are other names for it. Some musicians are very well known for playing behind the beat almost exclusively.

    Listen to some Dexter Gordon records; there are times where it sounds like he's on the brink of turning the beat around but he always brings it right back.

    Erroll Garner also had a very cool technique in which he played on the beat with his left hand while he played behind the beat with his right hand. It creates tension and it's such a cool effect, and of course you can hear it right away when he does it. Check out the way he plays Misty here. You can hear it almost immediately:


    These two were not the only musicians to utilize the technique regularly, and many musicians will use it sparingly to enhance their solos.

  5. #4

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    Two common ways in jazz:

    You lay back eighth notes so they are straight but slightly behind the beat (works cos the upbeat is still swung that way.)

    Or you play certain notes on the second triplet of the beat. This is very cool, and gives the behind the beat effect.

  6. #5

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    Joshua Breakstone does this a lot. After I listened to him for a while, I noticed that a large number of players do the same but not as often.

    Being behind the beat gives a different feeling to the line. It's like it is played with more effort or it comes out reluctantly, perhaps from pain. I never got the feeling that the notes were delayed from laziness or indifference.

  7. #6

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    He plays on and behind the beat. Trying focusing just on which he's doing during his single line improvs.



  8. #7

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    Think of it like this:

    Sit and rock in a rocking chair.

    First sit upright, rock back and forth.

    Second, lean back and slouch, rock back and forth.

    Third, lean way forward, rock back and forth.

    You're still rocking back and forth, it's just a different feeling.

    I suggest listening to Peter Bernstein. He does all three every solo and every comp.


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  9. #8
    In the audio examples above I mostly hear things like what's notated in these images. These are pretty difficult to hear at first , especially without actually working on them and playing them someway. When you add duple accent patterns to triplets, they sound like "rushed eight notes".

    The same is true for quarter note triplets, in feeling like they drag eighths notes. Once you learn some of these feels, you really can do a lot with moving things around.

    Notice in these three examples that one begins in the same place as the original , one has beat two in the same place as the original, and one has the final note in the original position. These three patterns therefore occupy about the same "time space" as the original eight note pattern. There's a lot of phrasing to be found in these triplet patterns.

    They are specific rhythms a lot of the time and not just "feelings". Worth nailing down some of these basic ones.

  10. #9

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    I would love it if someone out there would post the same line being played on the beat, ahead of the beat, and behind the beat. I need to learn to hear the differences better... Thanking you in advance!

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    I would love it if someone out there would post the same line being played on the beat, ahead of the beat, and behind the beat. I need to learn to hear the differences better... Thanking you in advance!
    Here you are, it's not a sophisticated line but hopefully the difference is there:

  12. #11


    To me, what he's doing with triplets at about 00:50 is what is casually being referred to as playing "behind" in many of these conversations. Actually looks like a pretty good class.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher


    To me, what he's doing with triplets at about 00:50 is what is casually being referred to as playing "behind" in many of these conversations. Actually looks like a pretty good class.
    For a complete explanation you can purchase "metaphors for musicians" by Randy Halberstadt. This topic and about 209 more are explained in detail.


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  14. #13

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    I'm with mike longo on this. Rhythms are specific at least until they are mastered.

    Behind the beat or relaxed phrasing is an effect, not a cause.

    It's no good someone saying play behind the beat of you don't know how much intuitively and if you don't know intuitively you need someone to break it down for you.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat
    Here you are, it's not a sophisticated line but hopefully the difference is there
    Thank you Tomcat. I appreciate you doing that!

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher


    To me, what he's doing with triplets at about 00:50 is what is casually being referred to as playing "behind" in many of these conversations. Actually looks like a pretty good class.
    Looks like a great video, and I need to check out more of this guitarist...

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat
    Here you are, it's not a sophisticated line but hopefully the difference is there:
    Thanks for the vdeo Tomek. TBF I think this is a different phenomenon to what people call 'behind the beat phrasing' it's more like where you sit with the rhythm section.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thanks for the vdeo Tomek. TBF I think this is a different phenomenon to what people call 'behind the beat phrasing' it's more like where you sit with the rhythm section.
    I confess that I can't hear the difference very well. Maybe I can't hear it at all.

    But, I can definitely feel an ahead-of-the-beat approach. Several of the Brazilian guys I play with have it. When they solo, you can feel a sense of pressure in the time. The opposite of a relaxed feel. I can't really explain why it isn't simply rushing, or how you create this sense of pressure without actually rushing.

    I had an opportunity last summer to jam with two world-class Brazilian jazz players. We were playing Samba Novo (an uptempo samba I had played many times and had memorized) and the pressure got so high I felt like I didn't know where we were in the chart. (Well, some of it was the infrequent use of anything resembling a downbeat).

    Anyway, maybe it would work to think of it as a kind of intensity. Relaxed vs pressured.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I confess that I can't hear the difference very well. Maybe I can't hear it at all.

    But, I can definitely feel an ahead-of-the-beat approach. Several of the Brazilian guys I play with have it. When they solo, you can feel a sense of pressure in the time. The opposite of a relaxed feel. I can't really explain why it isn't simply rushing, or how you create this sense of pressure without actually rushing.

    I had an opportunity last summer to jam with two world-class Brazilian jazz players. We were playing Samba Novo (an uptempo samba I had played many times and had memorized) and the pressure got so high I felt like I didn't know where we were in the chart. (Well, some of it was the infrequent use of anything resembling a downbeat).

    Anyway, maybe it would work to think of it as a kind of intensity. Relaxed vs pressured.
    AFAIK there's two things that create this pushing sense (I was taught 'if a samba doesn't feel like it's speeding up, it's dragging' - Joao Bosco de Oliveira)

    First is the samba swing, where in the 16ths are not placed evenly. As I understand it this comes from the way that the percussion is played - for example the way the stick bounces on a Caixa (snare) for instance, but you can break it down and you can see that the e is late, while the + and the a is early. The early + and a helps create a push to the music.

    Understanding the Samba groove

    AIAK the best way to develop a samba swing is to spend some time playing samba percussion, and certainly listen to a lot of brazilian music.

    The second thing is the anticipations in Brazilian guitar. If you play a chord on the last 16th of the beat (a push), that chord should be the next beat, not the previous if that makes any sense.

    So if you play

    Am7 | Ab7

    And you play a anticipation on the last 16th of bar 1, you play Ab7 not Am7.

    Anyway, I'm really not a master at any of this. Intellectual knowledge is not the same as being able to do it. But these things are relative. I do not think Bosco regards himself as a real Rio sambista, but to me he sounds amazing! Also, he is able to teach and break things down (he is a legendary teacher of samba in the UK), which the real guys are probably not able to do.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-15-2017 at 07:39 PM.

  20. #19

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    I have seen that breakdown of samba before. Recently, I saw the same thing for a swing ride beat.

    If you play it mathematically correct -- it doesn't have that lilt.

    It's somewhere between a triplet and a sixteenth-eighth-sixteenth.

    When the dancers teach beginners, the chop that they sing is ta-Da-dah, where that first sound is on (or maybe near) the final sixteenth of the previous measure (so to speak). The Da is on the one. In English, uh One e. They don't sing the "and" of "one e and uh."

    And, if you listen to older samba, you can hear that one bar phrase quite frequently. E.g. Brazil by Ary Barroso from the 40s (or earlier?). Joao Gilberto's frequent comping rhythm is a one bar phrase ONE AND two AND (chords on capital letters, but no math) which will mesh with the patten in older Samba. Transitional in a way.

    I recently took a lesson from a Brazilian drummer, Celso Alberti (check out his loop loft loops). Celso can make you want to dance when he plays an egg-shaker.

    I also recently took a group lesson with Kiko Freitas (who has played extensively with Joao Bosco). He is an astonishing musician. You can absolutely feel the pressure and the lilt.

    Interesting, and talking a bit from a contradictory point of view, I didn't feel as much pressure playing with those guys as I do with some of the Brazilian players and some of the Americans who get hired by Brazilians. Apparently, and unsurprisingly, there's more than one way to groove, even within samba. This is referring to the jam part of the lessons.

    I think that the comment about if it doesn't feel like it's rushing, it's dragging is exactly right, from the Brazilian point of view, at least for many players. I don't hear/feel that in every Brazilian group, but for straight samba based jazz, it is usually the case.

    There is a local singer/guitarist named Claudio Amaral (Viva Brasil!, check out Festa!) who gets that lilt even playing solo guitar and singing at a moderate tempo in a non-intense song. That is, he can nail that lilt and make you want to dance even when he's playing very calm music. He can also absolutely kick-ass too, but it's the ability to have that impact when playing softly that I'm pointing out.

  21. #20

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    Great info!

    People who are not from the culture often end up putting pressure on themselves and others to be authentic of course, because it is not so natural to them.

    But OTOH people who are from the culture can become frustrated when it's not right and lack a way of breaking down how it is wrong.

    People like Bosco are VERY unusual in my experience especially when it comes to rhythm and feel stuff.

    I think the naiiing the rhythm thing even when playing softly is HUGE. I'll hold my hand up and say I overdo my playing because I Want to make the rhythm come out. It should be more natural than that though.

    In terms of behind the beat phrasing - I will say only 'second eight triplet.' This is what 'lay back' means in jazz transcriptions, at least according to Mike Longo. It's how Billie does it.

    Take a look at this transcription of Jim Hall's Stella solo - bars 27-31 . This notation is not 100% accurate for the solo IMO, but he nails it here.

    Notice that some of the hornlike nuances and turns of Jim's phrasing are very ghosted and omitted from the chart because, well, it's probably hard to hear exactly what they are. Like Lester and Coleman Hawkins.

    This is something you don't really hear from many modern players.

    Much easier to transcribe a player like Kurt who plays every note exactly the same (on purpose :-)) and rhythmically much more quantised IMO.

    Last edited by christianm77; 04-15-2017 at 09:49 PM.

  22. #21

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    Excellent! Thanks for sharing that Jim Hall transcription. He is my all time favorite.

    It sounds to me that he's sometimes ahead of the beat, sometimes behind, but always swinging.

  23. #22

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    I think this a 'copied' phenomenon. It probably came from playing into the wee hours of the morning when tiredness sets in. It is also very apparent in singers who have to sing words the length of which don't always fit into strict time. It may also have been used to slow down tempos after they have sped up. Whatever the history, it seems to have worked its way into learned 'feel' and 'technique'. It makes the music sound very laid back and seems to emphasize the swing rhythm. Some players probably do it naturally, others for occasional effect. Some players play very much on the beat, and others consistently ahead of the beat. In the case of the latter, it sounds (to me at least) like over-anticipation, or perhaps nervous over-preparation.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Two common ways in jazz:

    You lay back eighth notes so they are straight but slightly behind the beat (works cos the upbeat is still swung that way.)

    Or you play certain notes on the second triplet of the beat. This is very cool, and gives the behind the beat effect.
    This is not playing behind the beat. May be an easy way out, fake option, for those who can not do it properly. Like I can not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat
    Here you are, it's not a sophisticated line but hopefully the difference is there:
    This is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thanks for the vdeo Tomek. TBF I think this is a different phenomenon to what people call 'behind the beat phrasing' it's more like where you sit with the rhythm section.
    For my whole life it was exactly the phenomenon, as opposed to (poly)rhythmical rushing and dragging, sort of flanging over rhythm, proposed by cocky Jazz guitar preachers and accepted by apprentices and buzz words worshippers.
    Last edited by Vladan; 04-21-2017 at 05:06 AM. Reason: added: "(poly)"

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thanks for the vdeo Tomek. TBF I think this is a different phenomenon to what people call 'behind the beat phrasing' it's more like where you sit with the rhythm section.
    Yes, there is a whole bunch of things when talking "behind the beat" I just tried to cover one way of doing that when playing straight, not swing.

    I guess we all guitarists should work more on rhytm and treat the guitar like drum set sometimes, here is the Master of behind the beat and on the beat and everywhere around the beat:

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I confess that I can't hear the difference very well. Maybe I can't hear it at all.
    One got to spend some time on focused listening to this. Try to clap with metronome - 99.9% chances that you will hear two things very close to each other - your clap and metronome beat or first metronome then your clap. If you are exactly on the beat you should not hear the metronome at all.