Playing behind the beat

[DanOwens]

For a while I was a drummer in a Surf-Punk band (Dick Dale meets the Ramones). My job was mainly keeping it steady whilst the guitarist and bandleader deliberately raced ahead of the beat. It created a frenetic energy that really worked with us.

My brother and I played in a hiphop group (this time I played bass and he played kit) and we both played behind the beat (he was fed a click so we never dropped time).

These were two extremes of something I think we all do naturally whether we want to or not; we are usually going to be a little before or behind the beat, even if the distance is infinitesimally small, and the direction (ahead or behind) is as often about our mental state as it is a calculated theoretical decision (IMO).

[christianm77]

Yes, there is a whole bunch of things when talking "behind the beat" I just tried to cover one way of doing that when playing straight, not swing.

I guess we all guitarists should work more on rhytm and treat the guitar like drum set sometimes, here is the Master of behind the beat and on the beat and everywhere around the beat:

Absolutely!

[vsaumarez]

Funny, I've never thought of the time keepers (drums, bass) as being behind the beat. They are the beat to me, so everything else is relative to them. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use of the term.

[Tomcat]

Funny, I've never thought of the time keepers (drums, bass) as being behind the beat. They are the beat to me, so everything else is relative to them. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use of the term.

Look at this: drum set is consisting of many "instruments". The bass drum and hh can play on the beat and snare plays behind, or otherwise. Drums then interact with the bass the same way. Endless possibilities...

[matt.guitarteacher]

Funny, I've never thought of the time keepers (drums, bass) as being behind the beat. They are the beat to me, so everything else is relative to them. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use of the term.

It's helpful to think as rhythm and beat as to completely separate things, which they are. Very often, rhythms are mostly on the beats in traditional music, but that's its own thing.

Basic example in jazz: A Charleston rhythm is a fundamental jazz comping rhythm. It IMPLIES a very strong three , without actually being ON three.

A saxophone player playing on the street corner should make you tap your foot and "hear" the beat, whether he's actually playing on the beat or not. Rhythms imply beat. The beat is the imagined pulse on which we coincidentally PLAY sometimes.

[christianm77]

I got the Larry Koonse video. It is exactly what I wanted, and really challenging!

One aspect that I want to cover was how to play quarter triplets in odd time - but there's some great fundamental stuff about quarter triplets.

For instance - if we take the quarter triplet starting on the second triplet of the 1st beat and superimpose on a bar of 4/4, then we end up with:
a backbeat,
the skip note ride pattern.
The Charleston
Also it feels pretty natural to start a phrase on the 2nd triplet of beats 1 or 3, which could be interpreted as a behind the beat thing.

It also includes Mike Longo's hidden five.

Anyway, it's all great stuff. Now to shed that rhythm at all tempos!

[matt.guitarteacher]

I got the Larry Koonse video.

what what?

[christianm77]

what what?

The one you posted the trailer for:

Playing Over the Bar Line - Larry Koonse - Jazz Guitar Lesson

There a few of them.

[vsaumarez]

Look at this: drum set is consisting of many "instruments". The bass drum and hh can play on the beat and snare plays behind, or otherwise. Drums then interact with the bass the same way. Endless possibilities...

I've never thought of that. I'm trying to imagine how that sounds. But the snare is still playing relative to the high hat. Someone has to be playing 'on' the beat for someone else to play behind it. If everyone played behind the beat, and together, that would be the new beat so nobody would be behind it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Someone has to be playing 'on' the beat for someone else to play behind it. If everyone played behind the beat, and together, that would be the new beat so nobody would be behind it.

that's also assuming that everyone's playing exactly the same thing as well . Or even the same note value....is everyone playing all quarter note - and behind the beat? I think that's a hypothetical...

[christianm77]

Possibly. Within a jazz group, there are different dynamics, but one example might be:

Ride cymbal - square on the beat with a big fat triplet upbeat
Bass - slightly pushed - so the attack of the note comes before the beat, but the 'bloom' of the note comes more on the beat
Piano - comping on swung upbeats Red Garland style
Soloist - playing even sounding eights slightly behind the beat so the downbeats come later than the ride, like Dexter Gordon

However, one thing I notice about groups that really swing is that the upbeat is very specific and synchronised. Whether or not this always falls on the triplet upbeat can be debated, but I think that the swung upbeat definitely has a strong relationship to the superimposed 6/8 meter(s) - this is a structural element that must be felt in the music in order for it to swing - the 6/8 against the 4/4 must be felt.

You might think that's a bit scientific, but I honestly feel that's quite a large part of it. The more I get keyed into these component rhythms and practice them, the more I perceive them in the music.

Also, when a soloist plays 1/4 notes and rhythms involving syncopations the not placement has to much more specific

Furthermore - if the 6/8 is already being strongly expressed by the rhythm section, the soloist has the option of pressing forward with the upbeat and placing it more straight. You can hear this in Miles's phrasing for instance, against Philly Joe's triplet ride beat skip note. I will have to listen closely to what he does with Jimmy Cobb who plays in a different style.

So for me behind/on top considerations are less important than structural considerations of the rhythms and how they cut across the time, and finding an intuitive place where these 'sit' best.

Here's my beef with all of this:

I feel Latin rhythms are better understood than swing rhythms because there is more of a literature discussing them. It's odd that when you talk about clave, cascara, tresillo etc everyone understands this as a science that needs to understood to play Cuban music, but when you talk about this in reference to jazz people go 'just play with the records man, you'll feel it.' Would they say that about Brazilian music for instance?

That to me is a stupid thing to say. The same musicians would probably object to the same statement made about harmony for instance. Music theory is the theory of music, not just harmony and melody.

The paucity of literature on American jazz rhythm is shocking, but the drummers understand! Talk to the drummer.

I also like Drum Genius (the app) as a history and science lesson in drums for non drummers. Get it!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here's my beef with all of this:

I feel Latin rhythms are better understood than swing rhythms because there is more of a literature discussing them. It's odd that when you talk about clave, cascara, tresillo etc everyone understands this as a science that needs to understood to play Cuban music, but when you talk about this in reference to jazz people go 'just play with the records man, you'll feel it.' Would they say that about Brazilian music for instance?

That to me is a stupid thing to say. The same musicians would probably object to the same statement made about harmony for instance. Music theory is the theory of music, not just harmony and melody.

The paucity of literature on American jazz rhythm is shocking, but the drummers understand! Talk to the drummer.

My beef as well. It's an interesting question. Why?

I think it has a lot to do with pure mechanics of playing an instrument. 8th notes are very concrete and they have a very physical representation in down/up foot tap. Of course drummers have the same reference with right/left, even on triplets. Pianists have it with a rocking right hand or playing against the"other"as well. Guitarists SHOULD have it, if we were taught it, using pick direction or right hand fingers etc.

When you start playing 8th and quarter note triplets with the same down/up relationship of straight eighths/quarters, all of the old lessons apply without starting from scratch too. I still think this stuff is about the most important thing in the music.