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  1. #1

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    Anyone hip to Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings? He uses a first finger position shift and the shapes line up with arpeggios really well.

    Any thoughts on this?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
    Anyone hip to Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings? He uses a first finger position shift and the shapes line up with arpeggios really well.

    Any thoughts on this?
    Three octaves fingering, maybe he uses violin fingering or kind of...

    This is what I think about.

    F major scale

    Low to high

    1 3 5 6
    3 5 7 8
    5 7 8 10
    7 9 10 12
    10 11 13 15
    12 13

    Sorry, it was just an idea.

  4. #3
    Major Scale fingering
    1-1-3-4/1-3-4 and repeats

    G A B C/D E F

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
    Major Scale fingering
    1-1-3-4/1-3-4 and repeats

    C D E F/G A B
    Man, that's I was talking about without knowing what it was about, we could say, cello fingering so.

    In gypsy jazz, they do quite the same thing with arpeggios, scales.

    Repeating the same thing, same fingering with a shift.

  6. #5
    Very cool!

  7. #6

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    I ran across that the other day. One pattern uses a 1-2-4 fingering with first-finger shifts and the other one (that I saw) uses a 1-3-4 pattern. Easy and efficient, yes.

  8. #7

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    I thought about something

    This is a fingering for F major scale

    1 1 3 4 (1 3 5 6)
    F G A Bb

    1 1 3 4 (3 5 7 8)
    C D E F

    1 3 4 4 (5 7 8 10)
    G A Bb C

    1 3 4 4 (7 9 10 12)
    D E F G

    1 2 4 (10 11 13)
    A Bb C

    1 3 4 (10 12 13)
    D E F

    What a weird thing !!!

  9. #8

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    That's pretty much it, Mark although writing both examples in C major will more clearly demonstrate the symmetry of the fingerings (G major would start with the low open E string). Each octave starts with a shift and follows the same fingering pattern:
    Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings-sjscales-jpg
    Jacobs outlines similar patterns for harmonic and melodic minor scales. They're very logical and their repetition at the octave is a very pianistic concept. By the way, I'm not sure who first came up with these fingerings but Chuck Wayne, who was a genius when it came to rethinking the architecture of the guitar fretboard includes them in his Scales book under the name 'double extended fingerings'.
    Last edited by PMB; 01-22-2017 at 09:18 PM.

  10. #9

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    Lots of useful getting from here to there horizontal symmetry - the melodic and harmonic minor versions are great

  11. #10

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    Check out Segovia's fingerings as well.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  12. #11

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    For violin, having a short scale, playing 4 notes on a string within a scale is the norm.
    Given the symmetrical tuning in 5ths, this results in a comfortable position fingering (1-2-3-4)
    16 notes (2 octaves + 1 more note).

    My other instrument:
    Cello scale length is similar to guitar. Generally we play 3 scale notes per hand shape. The tuning in 5ths creates an incomplete scale when playing across the neck in this way. This means that the standard scale fingerings will require many shifts. The violin hand shape of 1-2-3-4 is not a viable option for cellist hands of common proportions.
    1-1-2-4 and 1-1-3-4 ascending and 4-4-2-1 and 4-4-3-1 descending is an approach that I use at times that
    I use but is not the norm. On the bright side for cellists, when we integrate our thumb, it opens up a 4 note
    hand shape played Th-1-2-3.

    Guitar:

    I on occasion have toyed around with 4 notes per string doing a hand pivot around a stable thumb (1-2-3-4)
    or my cello moves (1-1-2-4/1-1-3-4). I have never achieved comfort enough to integrate it into real playing situations.
    All power to Sid Jacobs and other guitarists who have done so.
    To navigate 3 or so octaves, my preference is to use combinations of 3 note positional fragments shifting upward.

    Ex. shifting 6 note scale fragments (3+3)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------13--15--17-------------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------13--15--17---------------------------
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------12--14--15-----------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------7--8--10--**--12--14--15----------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------1--3--5-**--7--8--10-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---1--3--5------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ex. shifting 5 note scale fragments (2+3)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------17--19--20-------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------13--15--17--**--19--20----------------
    ---------------------------------------------------------9--11--12--**--14--16-------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------5--7--9--**--10--12---------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----------2--3--5--**--7--9-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---3--5---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I guess in some ways, guitar is my safe haven from having to rely on navigating 4 notes per hand shape.
    Although these are fun to practice, and present an interesting problem to solve, I haven't found that 3 octave
    runs come up much in my playing. I would have to summon my inner Art Tatum to start hearing in that language.

  13. #12
    How does he start these shapes in other keys? Let's say the key of Eb?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
    How does he start these shapes in other keys? Let's say the key of Eb?
    Just take the forms shown in my diagram and move them up 3 frets (a minor 3) from C major to Eb major. Jacobs only lists the two forms shown in my post, starting from the the 5th and 6th degrees of the parent scale as they represent the simplest arrangement, i.e consistency of either 1, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 4 fingerings. If you wanted to start from the lower frets, for instance the 2nd degree of an Eb major scale, you would still retain the octave repetitions but have to mix up the 1, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 4 fingerings:

    Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings-sj_ebmajorscale-jpg
    Last edited by PMB; 01-30-2017 at 02:01 AM.

  15. #14

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    @PMB, I get an error when trying to view your attachment.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by edh
    @PMB, I get an error when trying to view your attachment.
    How is it now? I initially uploaded the example when Dirk was rejigging the site and there were all sorts of problems with duplicate posts etc.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Just take the forms shown in my diagram and move them up 3 frets (a minor 3) from C major to Eb major. Jacobs only lists the two forms shown in my post, starting from the the 5th and 6th degrees of the parent scale as they represent the simplest arrangement, i.e consistency of either 1, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 4 fingerings. If you wanted to start from the lower frets, for instance the 2nd degree of an Eb major scale, you would still retain the octave repetitions but have to mix up the 1, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 4 fingerings:

    Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings-sj_ebmajorscale-jpg
    it looks like it might be a good idea to learn the keys that have the 1, 2, 4 fingers first in the relative minor key for context? Or?

  18. #17
    Are there any advantages when using the Segovia fingerings? They are pretty similar

  19. #18

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    Happened on this page again. Been awhile. Tried to 'like' a few posts but nothing happened when I clicked on the thumbs up.

  20. #19

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    Works for me, Mark.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Works for me, Mark.
    Thanks, Rob. Do me a favor and like post #3! For some reason, I can't.

  22. #21

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    Doesn't work for me either with #3. How strange!

  23. #22

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    I can like the posts that have a dotted line at the bottom (I think it defines where the signature element goes?).

    Short posts without this line can’t be liked.

    (this is on an iPad).

  24. #23

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    Here is a video of Sid Jacobs giving two fingerings of the C major scale (as PMB showed above) and also the A harmonic minor and A melodic minor scales (which relate to the C major scale--only one note difference in each case.)

    In all octaves, any particular note is played with the same finger it is played in in a lower or higher octave.

    In melodic minor there is a mix of 1-34 and 12-4 fingerings.


  25. #24

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    ------------------------------------------------------7-8-10---12-14-15--------
    ---------------------------------------5-7-*8*-10--------------------------------
    -------------------------------4-5-7---------------------------------------------
    ------------------1-3-*5*-7------------------------------------------------------
    ----------1-2-5--------------------------------------------------------------------
    --*3*-5----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The trick is to always use the same finger on the first note.
    In this example, notes surrounded by * * are all played
    with the second finger.

  26. #25

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    Digging in to his complete book of jazz guitar lines. Finding it most excellent.

    Could be titled "Nice Jazz Lines You Can Immediately Use"

  27. #26

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    Here's something to ponder. All root-based single-octave major scales begin (and end) with either the 2nd or 4th finger when following standard fingerings for CAGED forms. Note how the order alternates between 2-4 and 4-2 as you climb the neck:

    Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings-gsym1-jpg

    Take any of these forms and shift with the outside fingers (1 & 4) wherever a full tone appears to create a symmetrical major scale where any particular note is always played with the same finger. Here are two examples from the 5th string root:

    Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings-gsym2-jpeg

  28. #27

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    How do people like to shift when descending?

  29. #28

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    With the 1st finger ascending and the 4th finger descending as shown here. Miles Okazaki mentions that as his default in his Fundamentals of Guitar book when dealing with chromatics and I use the same approach as a general rule. As he puts it:

    "This way, the motion of the doubling finger always contracts, pulling in toward the hand, which is stronger and more natural than stretching and pulling away".

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    With the 1st finger ascending and the 4th finger descending as shown here. Miles Okazaki mentions that as his default in his Fundamentals of Guitar book when dealing with chromatics and I use the same approach as a general rule. As he puts it:

    "This way, the motion of the doubling finger always contracts, pulling in toward the hand, which is stronger and more natural than stretching and pulling away".
    That explanation would be good if hand would stay in place, while you'd only move previously stretched finger back into position.
    I do not feel like that is what is going on.
    For me, it is natural to fire all relevant fingers in position, than slide whole hand. Effectively, the opposite of what Okazaki recommends.

    Of course, Okazaki probably knows better.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    With the 1st finger ascending and the 4th finger descending as shown here. Miles Okazaki mentions that as his default in his Fundamentals of Guitar book when dealing with chromatics and I use the same approach as a general rule. As he puts it:

    "This way, the motion of the doubling finger always contracts, pulling in toward the hand, which is stronger and more natural than stretching and pulling away".
    So he doesn't shift the whole hand? I'm confused...

  32. #31

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    Sorry for the confusion. Yes, Okazaki is referring to a fixed position where chromatic notes lie either side. The diagrams and observations in the initial post are my own and put together while doing assorted other things without a guitar in hand. Looking back at it now, I meant to notate it as Vladan recommends when moving out of position. Either way, symmetrical fingerings will result. I was simply interested in the mechanics behind Jacob's scale forms and discovered an alternate method of creating them that offered a few more possibilities.

    Here's an amended version:
    Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings-gsym2-jpeg

  33. #32

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    Below link will redirect you to post on my BlogSpo page
    This is the link to post on my BlogSpot page: Shapes for what I think Sid Jacobs is talking about, Major scale only

    Above link will redirect you to post on my BlogSpo page


    Notes:

    1. While Jacobs mentions only index finger sliding, my diagrams are for sliding both index, or pinky
    2. Number of notes per string alternate from 4 to 3, or 3 to 4, between adjacent strings
    3. Sliding is used to play 4 notes per string
    4. Sliding is not used to play 3 notes per string


    Ultra Low Res Preview:
    Attached Images Attached Images Sid Jacobs Three Octave Scale Fingerings-uniform-fingering-pattern-shapes-major-scale-c-ss-jpg