How can I practice scales so they sound like lines?

[Fran]

Hi there,

a problem with practicing scales that perhaps someone can help with... Whenever I practice scales they sound like exactly what they are: scales. I'm wondering how to make my scales sound more like lines and therefore more 'usable' over whatever chord I'm playing.

I normally practice by playing the chord slowly and then playing the associated scale from the root to the highest note in the chord and vice-versa. Although I can hear the sound of the chord in the scale I play I don't think this really reflects true improvising.

Someone suggested I try playing scales using sequences. Has anyone had success with this? If so which melodic motifs were the sequences based on? Someone else suggested I learn my scales in all possible intervals, but this results in a sound I'm not really looking for in the case of many intervals, especially more dissonant ones; I play standards in a chord-melody/Joe Pass kind of style- I'm not that interested (yet!) in Mike Stern/Scofield kind of sounds.

Some people seem to be able to turn a simple mixolydian scale into the most fantastically formed line that combines melodic leaps and scalular movement that sounds like a sophisticated line and not just a scale. My question is: how does one achieve this 'movement'? And more importantly: how does one practice to achieve this movement?

What role does 'ear' play in such a situation. I am not yet able to sing a line spontaneously and silmuntaneously play in on the guitar, although I seem to be able to play the line after I sing it, albeit with the occasional dodgy note... Some people seem to suggest transcribing- learning other peoples solos- which seems v.time consuming, especially if you're not sure about the changes. Also some bebop-like lines go by so fast that I can hardly sing the line, let alone play it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

A frustrated guitarist.

[JohnW400]

Hi there,



Someone suggested I try playing scales using sequences. Has anyone had success with this? If so which melodic motifs were the sequences based on?

Someone else suggested I learn my scales in all possible intervals, but this results in a sound I'm not really looking for in the case of many intervals, especially more dissonant ones;

I play standards in a chord-melody/Joe Pass kind of style- I'm not that interested (yet!) in Mike Stern/Scofield kind of sounds.


Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

A frustrated guitarist.

There's more to scales than just running them up and back.

You need to train your ear.

To that end you should also do your scales in intervals (single notes , then double stops) and arpeggios, both triads and 7th chords. And... 2 octave 13th meaning 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,1 across 2 octaves.


On the intervals and arppegios you should think dirrection as well. There are 4 basic directions

Up (C-E, D-F, E-G, ECT)
Down ( E-C, F-D, G-F ECT)
Up-down (up on the first set down on the next)
Down up (Down on the first set up on the next)

This is how you train your ear. Dissonant or not , music moves by intervals. YOu should learn what they sound like alone and in the context of the different scales.

You mention Joe Pass and Chord Melody. His stuff is full of 4ths and 6ths.

Look around the lesson section here. YOu 'll probably find some arpeggio excercises to help with that.

[MikeJ]

I bought the Serious Jazz Practice Book thru this site..
It has an enormous range of scale patterns to practice.

[monk]

There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding about scales.

Most other instrumentalists (pianists, horn players, string players, et al) practice scales to develop facility on their instruments. Scales provide a systematic means to quickly train the fingers to produce notes as well as the beginnings of ear training.

By slowly and carefully working through the five positions for C major you will learn more than just a simple C scale. If you're willing to take the time extract the information.

Consider this.

Any one of the five C scale positions will contain the following information:
C major scale
A natural minor scale
C major pentatonic
F major pentatonic
G major pentatonic
A minor pentatonic
D minor pentatonic
E minor pentatonic
7 triads (C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim) which can be arpeggiated
7 diatonic sevenths (Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7,G7, Am7, Bm7b5) which can also be arpeggiated
7 modes
Chromatic scale (with one fret shifts)

Once you can play the scale, you can play all of this information contained within. It's not necessarily about learning a bazillion scales. It's about extracting all of the information that lies under your hand inside the scales you do know.

Many beginning (and intermediate) guitarists misunderstand the real purpose of scales. Scales are a training tool, a form of exercise, a way to improve certain physical, mental and aural skills. But they aren't music.

I would also suggest transcribing some solos of your favorite artists. You'll probably find that what you're hearing is not scales but arpeggios mixed with neighbor notes and diatonic or chromatic connections.

When I was at GIT, one of my fellow students remarked to Howard Roberts that his (the student's) solos always sounded like scales and what could he do to change that. Howard asked what the student practiced most. The reply was "Scales." Howard then suggested that the student should practice something other than scales.

I hope this is helpful.

Regards,
monk

[Stackabones]

When I was at GIT, one of my fellow students remarked to Howard Roberts that his (the student's) solos always sounded like scales and what could he do to change that. Howard asked what the student practiced most. The reply was "Scales." Howard then suggested that the student should practice something other than scales.

Yep. Songs are cool to play.

[P_Jay]

Great advice from the guys above. ‘There are no short cuts to learning the major scales’, J. Bruno. I’ve just bought Chris Sandring’s ‘Play What You Hear’ cd-rom and am spending my time learning the G major scale all the way up and down each string humming the tones to get the sound in my ears. And it works! Each time I play I know more firmly where each note is without thinking about it so freeing up more brain space to think about how I want the notes to connect, in short, melodies are coming to mind when I combine vertical and horizontal playing. I’m not thinking theoretically first and then connecting the notes. I’m playing the notes I hear in my head. It’s early days. My melodies are pretty crude, especially since I’m not using the outside notes yet but I feel a stronger sense of progress than I’ve felt in years. I think when you get the sounds in your ears it becomes much easier to understand how the movement works in the harmony, ie. Make your lines work well with the chords. BTW I would highly recommend Chris Sandring’s cd-rom.

[RyanM]

I was able to start making lines 'sound like lines' when I stopped thinking of scales as a source of melodic material. I'm not anti-CST, actually I think the real value of scales is (1) technique building, (2) learning the neck/positions, (3) understanding harmony, i.e. extensions, chord degrees, etc., (4) ear training (sing them!).
If you want to start being able to play lines, I think you should start learning them ('licks'). Ideally by ear off of the recordings, but I think working from books is fine for now (e.g. Omnibook, Neffmusic). But to get anything out of licks, you have to understand what you're playing so that you can see how they are working, which will help you start developing your own lines. By understand them, I mean find your place on the guitar (positions) and see what the actual scale/chord tones are that you are playing. Also, By playing along with recordings this will help you get a feel for phrasing, etc.
The way I think of it, Ultimately there is no scales, just chord tones and ways of connecting them. e.g. Over a dominant, if a line uses notes 9, 4 and 6 in addition to the chord tones you could call it a 'mixolydian line', but really it just is what it is.

[Modalguru]

Hi,

I recommend to record the chords first and then practice scales over these recordings. E.g. record a Cmaj7 only and then play the C-major-scale over it very slowly. You have to get a strong feeling for the mood certain tones and intervals of a scale make in connection with the chord. You have to practice this a lot to geht the sound and mood from your cerebrum into your cerebellum. After a couple of days, play C-lydian scale over the same recording. Do the same exercises again. Do you hear and feel the differt mood? The difference is just in one tone, the 4 becomes a #4.

I is also important to do a lot of work with chords, not only for comping, also for soloing. You get a much better feeling for soloing when comping a lot and experimenting with chords. I started playing at sessions very late (january this year). One of my best solos so far was when we were playing a song I didn't know and got lost in the chord jungle. So I continued to play by ear only and that was a great experience. A good exercise in this context is, to throw a cd into the player and just solo along with it, without knowing any chords.

Get good and modern playbacks of jazz standards to play over them (learn the standards by heart (chords and melody). They melodies are often quite simple, but contain a lot of basics. Make your own jam tracks, just comping, you don't need drums or a bass for that. And most important: try to find a local jazz session, where you can try all those things or find musicians who want to try, too.

One final recommendation: get "Jazz Guitar Anatomy" from Mimi Fox and a good harmony theory book like the one of Mark Levine just to deepen things. But be patient. Take your time and move very slowly from one topic to the other. It will be a lot more rewarding when you take time to internalize all the information and experiment with the material you learn.

And don't forget, in jazz the jorney is the reward!

All the best,
Modalguru

[jazzplayer925]

Here's a very simple way to do it that I've found helpful on piano. Start at the root (or anywhere really), then play up to the ninth, then play down to the third, then up to the 11th, then down to the fifth. You get the idea. Keep going until you reach the second octave, then turn it around. This ingrains each of the modes in your mind and fingers, forward and backwards, and lets you practice all of them systematically.

I had been practicing scales for years, and this simple trick helped me break free of always starting at the root, and always going in a particular direction.

[danjw]

There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding about scales.

Most other instrumentalists (pianists, horn players, string players, et al) practice scales to develop facility on their instruments. Scales provide a systematic means to quickly train the fingers to produce notes as well as the beginnings of ear training.

By slowly and carefully working through the five positions for C major you will learn more than just a simple C scale. If you're willing to take the time extract the information.

Consider this.

Any one of the five C scale positions will contain the following information:
C major scale
A natural minor scale
C major pentatonic
F major pentatonic
G major pentatonic
A minor pentatonic
D minor pentatonic
E minor pentatonic
7 triads (C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim) which can be arpeggiated
7 diatonic sevenths (Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7,G7, Am7, Bm7b5) which can also be arpeggiated
7 modes
Chromatic scale (with one fret shifts)

Once you can play the scale, you can play all of this information contained within. It's not necessarily about learning a bazillion scales. It's about extracting all of the information that lies under your hand inside the scales you do know.

Many beginning (and intermediate) guitarists misunderstand the real purpose of scales. Scales are a training tool, a form of exercise, a way to improve certain physical, mental and aural skills. But they aren't music.

I would also suggest transcribing some solos of your favorite artists. You'll probably find that what you're hearing is not scales but arpeggios mixed with neighbor notes and diatonic or chromatic connections.

When I was at GIT, one of my fellow students remarked to Howard Roberts that his (the student's) solos always sounded like scales and what could he do to change that. Howard asked what the student practiced most. The reply was "Scales." Howard then suggested that the student should practice something other than scales.

I hope this is helpful.

Regards,
monk

100%

[P_Jay]

I also use a backing track sequence of (diatonic chords) per key moving in a cycle of fourths, as follows; Cmaj7(-Dm7-Em7-Fmaj7-G7-Am7-Bm7b5-Cmaj7) then, Fmaj7(Gm7-Am7-Bbmaj7-C7…):Bb(…):Eb(…):Ab(…), etc. through the 12 keys. Over these chords I play the scale for each key playing up to the ninth and down to the third up to the eleventh down to the fifth as Jazzplayer925 describes above. The idea is that when you play the scale like this with the chord sequence behind you, each mode of the scale harmonises with its respective chord as you play making it easy to hear how the tones fit. If you have Band in a Box then you can practice using a variety of tempos and styles.

[vsaumarez]

Practicing scales is just that ...practicing scales. And playing lines ...well, is playing lines. The two are quite separate, so you need to shift your emphasis and change tack. Scales are a theoretical framework that helps explains where lines come from. As an improvisation devise they are completely useless, because they merely play the same set of note either up or down. Etudes are studies of scales that mostly stick to the scale notes, but aim to explore melodic possibilities. Lines, or licks may use two or even three different scales, and I don't mean modes. So your goal should be, how to practice lines, so they don't sound like scales. As Joe Pass famously said, learn your scales and then forget them.

[82Benedetto]

Practicing scales is just that ...practicing scales. And playing lines ...well, is playing lines. The two are quite separate, so you need to shift your emphasis and change tack. Scales are a theoretical framework that helps explains where lines come from. As an improvisation devise they are completely useless, because they merely play the same set of note either up or down. Etudes are studies of scales that mostly stick to the scale notes, but aim to explore melodic possibilities. Lines, or licks may use two or even three different scales, and I don't mean modes. So your goal should be, how to practice lines, so they don't sound like scales. As Joe Pass famously said, learn your scales and then forget them.

Well said. Personally, I've always had trouble developing great lines following scale patterns. No matter what I tried, they never quite sounded as catchy or well phrased as some of Pisano's or Pizzarelli's lines.

What did work for me was working on translating what I heard in my head to my fretboard, then worrying about the theory later. In the end, we all want something that sounds great, regardless of where we pull it from. If you're anything like me, you may benefit from humming or singing a lick or working out some lines and then going back to examine them. Not only is this another way of viewing things, but I think it helps you develop your own style and sound as well. In my opinion, it's great to understand what you're playing, but we must also recognize that not all of the greatest guitarists thought of everything theoretically; they just played something that sounded great.

This is a bit off topic, but the best sax player I've ever heard didn't even know what major and minor were. He could only hum the difference (the third) to communicate to me and others what he was referring to. No strict knowledge of scales or theory; just playing what sounded and felt right, and he was no push over.

Different strokes for different folks, but this may help you out. You don't need to worry about more complex scales, concepts, or scales and theory you haven't learned yet. Develop something that sounds good in bits and pieces and examine it later. Good luck

[derek]

Other than the ear training, fretboard knowledge, dexterity training discussed here, the best use of scales for me is working out sequences (4hts, 6ths, etc) that I use to connect phrases or ideas. YMMV

[Stringbean]

On the intervals and arppegios you should think dirrection as well. There are 4 basic directions

Up (C-E, D-F, E-G, ECT)
Down ( E-C, F-D, G-F ECT)
Up-down (up on the first set down on the next)
Down up (Down on the first set up on the next)

Thanks for that.

[franco6719]

"Some people seem to suggest transcribing- learning other peoples solos- which seems v.time consuming, especially if you're not sure about the changes. Also some bebop-like lines go by so fast that I can hardly sing the line, let alone play it. "

Download Audacity, slow the tunes down to a level where you CAN
hear something, then copy on the instrument, MEMORIZE the entire solo without writing it down, play it back until you get up to speed, then play it both with and without the original recording. This is what I have been doing lately. Anyway, the point is: you CAN slow then down easily nowadays, loop, etc..

I find scales pretty much completely useless. Arpeggios do seem to help though.

[82Benedetto]

"Some people seem to suggest transcribing- learning other peoples solos- which seems v.time consuming, especially if you're not sure about the changes. Also some bebop-like lines go by so fast that I can hardly sing the line, let alone play it. "

Download Audacity, slow the tunes down to a level where you CAN
hear something, then copy on the instrument, MEMORIZE the entire solo without writing it down, play it back until you get up to speed, then play it both with and without the original recording. This is what I have been doing lately. Anyway, the point is: you CAN slow then down easily nowadays, loop, etc..

I find scales pretty much completely useless. Arpeggios do seem to help though.

Yea, if you can't sing a line over bop changes there's no way you're going to be able to think with scales over bop changes. You're going to be trying to fit certain scales over chords that move way too quickly. Please, tell me how you intend to utilize a mixolydian mode over a V chord before it changes key in 2 beats .

Just not going to happen....you're better off singing a line or humming something.

Scales were never designed for that purpose....to the original poster, you need to go back and realize what scales actually are.

[morrispelgrim]

omg, i have a lot to learn. i love to play my guitar and i love to learn. this is the place to be. but time is not always on my side. i'll do my best to visit this site more often. thans guys ( i'm flemish speaking )

[John Curran]

Don't know if the OP is still on board, but for anyone interested, trumpet players have a very excellent book of scales to practice from. Entitled "Arbans Complete Conservatory Method for Trumpet (Cornet)", (or simply 'The Arban Book'), this 'trumpet players bible' turns scales and intervals just about every which way imaginable. Set in treble cleff for trumpet, it adapts to guitar quite nicely. Originally published by Carl Fischer Inc., although my copy is quite old, I'm pretty sure the book is still out there.

FWIW

john

[merseybeat]

Just like to chip in my pennies worth (or Cents!) as I too suffered this problem last year (until Matt Warnock shone his light on me!)!

This worked for me anyhow! For an example I will use C Major and G altered over a C MAJ7 and G alt respectively!

Pick a familiar area of the neck and practice a small section of the scale (Say C Major and limit your playing to a 4 or 5 note range) and whilst maintaining position (within say a couple of frets) Move to a G altered scale (G# Melodic Minor) and do the same! Then move back to C Major scale and try another small section of the scale. Keep repeating this exercise in as many positions as you can!

Also do this for other scales i.e. Harmonic Minor, Half-Whole diminished etc! and in all keys!

Keeping things "Byte sized" and using a familiar scale as a reference (ie. C Maj in this case). Your ears will very quickly start to appreciate melodies instead of mechanics!

Hope this helps

Eddie