The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    IME, the vast majority of young musicians who are not good enough to enter club entertainment scene, either as an all around cover band or genre specific cover/ original, share the stance of our OP.

    I blame it on Miles. Even though he could not possibly anticipate, he could have assumed, unfortunately, he was vain and loved drugs and money a bit too much.

    The other part, minority, goes into denial about musicianship and pretend intellectual superiority in making own stupid genre-less music. However, those really talented and persistent, they can really make it BIG, with lots of luck.

    I blame it on The Beatles.
    Last edited by Vladan; 05-24-2016 at 08:44 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almeisan
    I never listened to songs. And I had like 200 GB of music. The only songs in there must be a set of Schumann songs I never listened and I guess there was at least one Allan Holdsworth song in there, which I always skipped.

    When I say 'song', I mean 'song'.
    Ok Almeisan ....
    what kind of thing do you want play ?
    or who do you wanna play like
    Django
    Pass ?
    Wes ?
    Metheny ?

    more modern style maybe ?

  4. #28

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    Yea... playing jazz is not really about playing a song or tune... It's not a written tradition for the most part.

    To be able to play in a jazz style you need to understand some basic compositional organization... ( if you made it through Schoenbergs theory of harmony...his structural Functions of harmony would have been better, anyway that should be easy), and there is no way around not have a high level of musicianship... skills on a instrument. Basic comping and melodic playing will not get you very far. It's not about what you have memorized... it's about what you can create. And you either need a well trained ear or some understandings of how jazz is organized to make it work.

    I grew up on Bartok and Scriabin as a kid

  5. #29
    I have studied from both Schoenberg books, but don't test me on it. I was a teenager back then and it is years ago.

    I agree with your ideas. To me jazz is about improvising through chord changes.

    Dodging the discussion about that aspects of what one improvises is memorised, I think a combination of memorization and ear are needed.
    I can't say I can play what I hear in my head, not a bebop jazz line. But I can sing what I play. Though, I feel here that when I do that I play that what I know I can sing. It's like I play less freely when I sing along, though I guess that's only natural.

    I feel both sides need to come together, ear and memorization.

    But right now the focus is on accompining a solist and taking a bunch of jazz standard chords and playing the chords and mixing them up with some licks so that it sounds like something that can stand on it's own.
    And focussing on some other rough edges I have when it comes to basic musicality.

    As for me recording myself, I will, when I get a guitar at my week residence and when my recording equipment actually starts functioning.

  6. #30

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    I like complex music too. One of the great things about jazz is you can take the simplest tune (say, Autumn Leaves) and make it as complex as you want.

    Even the best modern classical players had to start with "Three Blind Mice".

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almeisan
    I never listened to songs. And I had like 200 GB of music. The only songs in there must be a set of Schumann songs I never listened and I guess there was at least one Allan Holdsworth song in there, which I always skipped.

    When I say 'song', I mean 'song'.

    Is there specific Jazz you like that you can envision playing?

  8. #32
    Not on the short term. But long term I'd like to play something along the lines of Chick Corea stuff, stuff Metheny did with his trio, and stuff like Pat Martino.
    But also stuff like Sonny Rollins I like.

  9. #33
    As others asked, and I kind of have a recording setup now, this is how I play at my worst. One take recording, trying to go by ear, just noodling away.



    I had to boost my mic sound like crazy, for some reason, so there's static all over. And the software froze halfway, so it just stops halfway.

    You can hear I get lost at times, then chromatically move to and find chord tone to end on. You can hear me hesitate or mess up the rhythm sometimes. You can hear me start licks with the same fast picked rhythm over and over.

    The mild vibrato I apply is pointless also. Sounds bad. But it's a reflex I feel.

    When you remove the chords from the backing track, there's no shimmer left of what the chord progression is supposed to be.

    But hey, that's how a former hard rock guitarist turned failed classical pianist turned jazz guitarist sounds.


    Only posting this as it was requested.

  10. #34

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    I probably should bite my tongue, but I think your playing would improve a lot if you'd learn melodies to a bunch of songs -- oops, I mean tunes. I'm pretty sure the musicians you most admire started there.
    Also, study how the melody notes and phrasing mate with the underlying chord tones. To make good melody (including improvised solos) I feel one needs to be immersed in it.
    Last edited by KirkP; 06-13-2016 at 12:13 AM.

  11. #35
    I tried practicing in a different manner and recorded this as I was practicing:



    I don't know if it sounds better than what I did before. For some reason my new Eastman 185 sounds like crap played through the my Marshall DSL401. (think the previous thing was recorded on an old cheap Washburn with no intonation and .9 strings). Probably the mic and the mixing board, that is giving me a shock when I touch it at the wrong spot, are the cause. Probably also why I get so much hiss/static.

    I think trying to hit chord notes make me hesitate to the point where my already iffy time sounds even worse.
    When I am playing it seems that what I am doing is ok or acceptable. But when I listen to the recording, it is bad.

  12. #36

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    These types of threads seem to come up often.

    People take up the guitar and/or jazz and become lost in the minutiae.

    Starting Again with jazz Guitar-220px-lostinthefunhouse-jpg

    Instead of simply focusing on the basics (melody, chords, rhythm), people get entranced by all the details.

    The details will generally reveal themselves over time as needed. No need to learn 10 different scales or 300 chord grips or a zillion arpeggios. Instead learn them as needed.

    >

    "All I want to do is play like Shawn Lane."

    What? I just wanted to be as smart as Einstein or as good looking as George Clooney. You know, simple stuff.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almeisan
    Not on the short term. But long term I'd like to play something along the lines of Chick Corea stuff, stuff Metheny did with his trio, and stuff like Pat Martino.
    But also stuff like Sonny Rollins I like.
    You've got to walk before you can run. That's advanced stuff and its going to take years to get there. The advice you've gotten here is pretty good, so I don't really have much to add. Learn tunes. Transcribe solos.

    W/r/t tunes/songs/pieces, etc. I'm no longer a huge fan of vocal music. I used to be, but now I feel like the lyrics distract me from the music. I can appreciate a great singer like Sarah Vaughn or Tony Bennett, but when I want to get deep into the music, I can't be processing words as well. Having said that, whenever I learn a tune, I always like to learn the lyrics as well (if it has lyrics). The reason for that is that it gives me something to anchor the melody to. Like, for example, the D# in the bridge of Stella is on the word "great." It helps me to know that for some reason that I don't quite understand.

    Another thing to bear in mind is that classical composers used the melodies of folk songs all the time. The funeral march in Mahler's first symphony is based on Frere Jaques. The "Shaker Melody" in Copeland's "Appalachian Spring" is "The Simple Gift" ('Tis a gift to be simple / 'tis a gift to be plain...). So the lines aren't as sharp as they might seem. My knowledge of classical music isn't terribly deep, so those are pretty well known examples, but that stuff is all over the place.

  14. #38
    You mean I only play the actual vocal melody over the chords? And then very very slowly deviate from that?

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almeisan
    You mean I only play the actual vocal melody over the chords? And then very very slowly deviate from that?
    That wouldn't be a bad place to start.

  16. #40

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    Greetings everyone I'm going to come back from a long hiatus (months) of not playing my guitar to playing it so my question to you all is how do I organize my practice session? I'm looking at a 6 hour practice by myself with 3 more hours of playing with others. My primary focus is to get good enough to play jazz gigs.

    Now I have played jazz gigs before and with other people but that was a long time ago (around 2012-2013 ish?) and I was remarkably terrible, people didn't seem to mind though but whatever lol! I'm here to change all that though so I've have been looking for a Tunes oriented practice schedule. I have been with a few teachers in the past but only one thought about a practice schedule and thats after I asked, I forgot about it since it was a long time.

    I've heard lots of times that to get good I got to learn hundreds of tunes. I can learn the melodies, chords and soloes by ear from recordings but improvisation has always been my biggest weakness.
    And I'm guessing that to know a tune you got to be able to improvise it well as well. I don't know why but trying to build a practice schedule centered around tunes and improvisation seems pretty tricky to me..
    I guess I can make a sample now and see if you people can probably make adjustments or think its okay

    Tune 1 - Autumn Leaves (1 hour)
    Learn Melody - 15 Minutes
    Learn Chords -15 Minutes
    7th Chord Arppegios on tune - 10 Minutes
    Transcribe a short lick and experiment with it - 10 minutes
    Improvise over chord changes alongside backing track - 10 minutes

    Tune 2 - Blue Bossa (1 hour)

    Tune 3 - Anthropology (1 hour)

    Tune 4 - 26-2 (1 hour)

    Tune 5 - Straight no Chaser (1 hour)

    Tune 6 - So What (1 hour)

    The rest of the tunes follow through the same list as autumn leaves. I already know the melody and chords for instance (for autumn leaves). So the last three things 7th chord arpeggios, transcribe a short lick, and improvise chord changes are 20 minutes each. If I manage to sound good improvising autumn leaves then I replace autumn leaves with a new different tune for the next day, if I don't sound good improvising it then I keep working on autumn leaves the next day while working on the rest of the tunes today.

    Is this a good tunes oriented practice schedule? Anything to otherwise specify? Maybe make it better? I might post videos later in the meantime for progress who knows
    Last edited by jazznylon; 02-01-2019 at 04:47 AM.

  17. #41

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    Oh and I guess there might be an issue of forgetting tunes as well! In that case I might replace Tune 6 with just an hour of playing tunes that I already went over. Just to keep my mind fresh

  18. #42

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    Everyone practices different, but I find I can’t really practice two or three things any given week.

    If I want to learn a tune I have to keep coming back to it over and over.

  19. #43

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    The time frame you allocated for the tunes seem unrealistic to me. The more you internalize a tune, the easier it gets to improvise over it. There is a difference between knowing what the chords are to a tune and knowing the chords of the tune. Same goes for the melody.
    I highly recommend David Baker's How to Play Bebop BOOK 3. That book is completely dedicated to how to learn tunes. He also a has a list of tunes he recommends to be learned over the first 6 months.
    In his learning technique you spend a week per tune. And believe me a week is quite optimistic for some of the tunes in the way he shows how to learn them.

  20. #44

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    That looks like an awful lot to take in in one session . Are you sure that's sustainable ?

    As far as practice goes generally , I would advise to start with what you know and expand a bit from there . I think of learning music as being a bit like moving to a new city that you don't know and learning to find your way around . You start off with the simple neccessities ( home , work , shops , pub/church ) and as you repeat those daily , start to discover new areas and how they connect . If you just start walking the streets at random you end up lost .

    I find it useful to make a distinction between , and keep seperate , the different types or functions of practicing -

    1-Cognition/theory
    2-Drilling/muscle memory
    3-Praxis/playing music

  21. #45

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    Incidentally , I learned 26-2 many years ago and I have never known it to be called . I suggested it at a jam session once and was met with blank looks . Shame , it's a great tune .

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    The time frame you allocated for the tunes seem unrealistic to me. The more you internalize a tune, the easier it gets to improvise over it. There is a difference between knowing what the chords are to a tune and knowing the chords of the tune. Same goes for the melody.
    I highly recommend David Baker's How to Play Bebop BOOK 3. That book is completely dedicated to how to learn tunes. He also a has a list of tunes he recommends to be learned over the first 6 months.
    In his learning technique you spend a week per tune. And believe me a week is quite optimistic for some of the tunes in the way he shows how to learn them.
    How am I supposed to learn hundreds of tunes if one tune would take a week at best to learn? That would take years! But I guess I could look into the 3rd Volume thanks for recommending.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    How am I supposed to learn hundreds of tunes if one tune would take a week at best to learn? That would take years! But I guess I could look into the 3rd Volume thanks for recommending.
    It sometimes takes years to really learn a tune.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    Is this 6 hours of practice a day?
    Yeah plus 3 for playing with others so 9 hours in total. Almost like a regular job

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft
    That looks like an awful lot to take in in one session . Are you sure that's sustainable ?

    As far as practice goes generally , I would advise to start with what you know and expand a bit from there . I think of learning music as being a bit like moving to a new city that you don't know and learning to find your way around . You start off with the simple neccessities ( home , work , shops , pub/church ) and as you repeat those daily , start to discover new areas and how they connect . If you just start walking the streets at random you end up lost .

    I find it useful to make a distinction between , and keep seperate , the different types or functions of practicing -

    1-Cognition/theory
    2-Drilling/muscle memory
    3-Praxis/playing music
    Yeah I mean I've sustained far worse when it came to practicing so I think I can manage this one pretty well. I've yet to try it out though as I'm looking for feedback so we'll see how it goes. Interesting post! Food for thought

  26. #50

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    i think it’s valuable to do a chord-melody arrangement
    of the tune you’re working on too

    don’t take on too much at once tho
    learning one tune helps with learning another ...