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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    This well known site offers some audio samples for each tune and also recommends some definitive recordings, plus other great resources.

    Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents


    Just for fun, here's another side of Bruce...

    Hey Cosmic, Yeah I know that site, do you think though that the links there to important versions might favour vocal versions? Like Nat King Cole's Autumn Leaves? Maybe I should check it out again...

  2. #52
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    In the other (more recent) podcast, Bruce mentions Miles, Louis Armstrong, Ella, and Sinatra as great recordings to check out. There may have been a few others. Nat Cole was a great singer.

    When learning a tune, it's best to hear versions that "get the melody right." Ella and Frank were good at that the first time through a chorus. Miles was great with melodies, really made them sing.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
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  3. #53
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    thanks and yes I couldn't help butting in on this one as the tunes are so mega.

  4. #54
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    Another singer who sang the melody correctly was Linda Ronstadt. She is one of my absolute favorites for standards, as well as lots of other styles. Her inability to continue to sing was a great loss to the world.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by plasticpigeon View Post
    I can't fathom that website's name. Wank is not a particularly complimentary word over in the UK, does it mean something different in the US? They wank poetically on all things guitar! Do they mean wax poetically?
    I think it's intended to be humorous. These guys are serious musicians who don't take themselves too seriously. And the podcast is pretty free-form, just... wankin' on whatever comes to mind!

    At least that's my impression from the one podcast I listened to.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad View Post
    mark - that vid doesn't work - i went on youtube to find it - and couldn't

    any chance of a re-post? i'd like to hear some of his earlier stuff
    It's also on Amazon Prime if you have that. Oddly, three tracks are missing. When I tried to find out why, I got passed from one clueless customer service rep to another till I gave up. Usually Amazon is pretty headsup, but this experience was the exception.

    ====

    Update: I was referring to "Chasin the Blues" - I can't see the other vid @MarkRhodes posted, either.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine View Post
    I think it's intended to be humorous. These guys are serious musicians who don't take themselves too seriously. And the podcast is pretty free-form, just... wankin' on whatever comes to mind!

    At least that's my impression from the one podcast I listened to.
    yeah that always amuses me too. Lest there be any doubt, in the UK the absolute primary meaning of 'wank' is 'to masturbate' and it will always be understood that way over here.

    From other online useages and references I have seen, it does not seem that in the USA it has that primary meaning exactly. More like 'pointless talking' perhaps.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    yeah that always amuses me too. Lest there be any doubt, in the UK the absolute primary meaning of 'wank' is 'to masturbate' and it will always be understood that way over here.

    From other online useages and references I have seen, it does not seem that in the USA it has that primary meaning exactly. More like 'pointless talking' perhaps.
    Maybe pointless masturbatory talk about guitar....Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 06-08-2018 at 07:59 PM.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    yeah that always amuses me too. Lest there be any doubt, in the UK the absolute primary meaning of 'wank' is 'to masturbate' and it will always be understood that way over here.

    From other online useages and references I have seen, it does not seem that in the USA it has that primary meaning exactly. More like 'pointless talking' perhaps.
    In the US, the wanking/masturbation reference is applied with the context of doing something strictly for your own pleasure/enjoyment, without regard for anyone else, totally self-indulgent. e.g. "His guitar solo was only wanking". The discussion turned into "guitar wank".

    It's not pointless, it's for the complete enjoyment of the wanker.

  10. #60
    Yes we have the ‘wanking guitar solo’ useage over here too.

  11. #61
    it’s all bollocks though innit every geeza’s gunna wank and it’s cushtie
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  12. #62
    I can tell you’ve been studying for the UK Citizenship Test.

  13. #63
    did i do good Graham!?
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  14. #64
    We say wank in America, but I think it’s MUCH more British than American
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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    In the other (more recent) podcast, Bruce mentions Miles, Louis Armstrong, Ella, and Sinatra as great recordings to check out. There may have been a few others. Nat Cole was a great singer.

    When learning a tune, it's best to hear versions that "get the melody right." Ella and Frank were good at that the first time through a chorus. Miles was great with melodies, really made them sing.
    Agree. Nat King Cole or Sarah Vaughan also sing melody quite close to the leadsheet.

    Envoyé de mon SM-G930F en utilisant Tapatalk

  16. #66
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    Curious note: in "The B Side: The Fall of Tin Pan Alley and the Rebirth of the Great American Song" it is written that when Miles Davis was asked where he learned to phrase the way he does that he answered, Sinatra.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Bollocks
    If you're talking about the Miles Davis remark about learning phrasing from Sinatra, the source for it is Keith Jarrett in an interview he gave NPR.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  19. #69
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    Keith Jarrett is a numpty*

    *this is a joke
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-09-2018 at 06:06 PM.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    did i do good Graham!?
    with lingo like that mate you could pass for the Duke of Edinburgh and no mistake.

  21. #71
    re: wanking, don't overlook the fact that Troy MacCubbin is an Australian... he DEFINITELY knows the true meaning of wank

  22. #72
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    The computer ate my longer reply, so I'm going to keep it short. Bruce has very high expectations if he's putting tunes like All the Things You Are on a beginner's list. I'd scrap about half those and replace them with tunes like Blue Bossa and Dearly Beloved, ones that stay in a couple of keys at most.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    The computer ate my longer reply, so I'm going to keep it short. Bruce has very high expectations if he's putting tunes like All the Things You Are on a beginner's list. I'd scrap about half those and replace them with tunes like Blue Bossa and Dearly Beloved, ones that stay in a couple of keys at most.
    I hear you...there is some logic in keeping the initial list to easy tunes. But on the other hand getting comfortable with changes and starting to build that "tune muscle" can, in my experience, really benefit from learning some more challenging tunes early on. One of the first tunes I learned in all keys was Confirmation. Crazy? Maybe...but then again maybe there's a connection between that and the fact that I subsequently found it very easy to learn new tunes. And I still do. Furthermore, ATTYA is not really very hard; 1625's, some key changes, yeah ok it's not easy but part of learning jazz is learning that stuff that might seem really hard is not actually that hard - like 1625 or descending half step resolutions. Learning to simplify, thinking in chunks of the form, etc. Some of the really easy tunes don't really help in learning future tunes IMO.

  24. #74
    Any have a clue what they play at the beggining of the audio ? The two guitars playing the same lick sounds like a standard rather than just a jam.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by man-argentina View Post
    Any have a clue what they play at the beggining of the audio ? The two guitars playing the same lick sounds like a standard rather than just a jam.
    That's the GuitarWank theme song, played at the beginning of every episode. I always just thought it was something Bruce and Scott wrote. It actually sounds like a Bruce lick with Scott doing his whammy bar thing over it.
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  26. #76
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    Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners

    Bruce Forman is usually correct. Those tunes are money in the bank.

    ‘Easier tunes’ are often easy because they represent a shortcut - don’t prepare the student for the reality of what they will have to play in the long run as a jazz musician.

    These songs give you a strong grounding in the standards harmony are you are likely to find.

    You might not master them right away, but you will have to master them in order to learn to play jazz.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny View Post
    But on the other hand getting comfortable with changes and starting to build that "tune muscle" can, in my experience, really benefit from learning some more challenging tunes early on.
    Hey, coolvinny. Nothing wrong with learning more challenging tunes, especially if they're ones you want to learn as opposed to the ones on some list. Learning tunes is pretty much always time well spent.

    That said, after teaching for 40+ years, the last 15 years in college music programs, the biggest issue I hear in "beginning" jazz players is not being able to improvise over chord changes. The more chord changes, the worse this gets. There are plenty of so-called standards that are useful to know for jam sessions and gigs that have fewer key changes, so as a teacher I recommend learning those tunes first so the newbie can gain some confidence and experience "making the changes." This builds the foundation for improvising on harder tunes, i.e. learn to walk before running.

    Another possibility is to learn a harder tune, but then learn an etude or two over those changes, even if you have to write them yourself. Many seasoned players do this as a matter of course when they're working on something new, but a lot of beginners have gotten the mistaken impression that this is "cheating," and then will "improvise" a solo that's complete crap because they don't know what they're doing. Wes Montgomery said that when he played with Lionel Hampton all he knew how to do was play the Charlie Christian solos he'd learned off records, Chick Corea said he composed solos early in his career so he'd know he had something that sounded good, and so on.

  28. #78
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    Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    Hey, coolvinny. Nothing wrong with learning more challenging tunes, especially if they're ones you want to learn as opposed to the ones on some list. Learning tunes is pretty much always time well spent.

    That said, after teaching for 40+ years, the last 15 years in college music programs, the biggest issue I hear in "beginning" jazz players is not being able to improvise over chord changes. The more chord changes, the worse this gets. There are plenty of so-called standards that are useful to know for jam sessions and gigs that have fewer key changes, so as a teacher I recommend learning those tunes first so the newbie can gain some confidence and experience "making the changes." This builds the foundation for improvising on harder tunes, i.e. learn to walk before running.

    Another possibility is to learn a harder tune, but then learn an etude or two over those changes, even if you have to write them yourself. Many seasoned players do this as a matter of course when they're working on something new, but a lot of beginners have gotten the mistaken impression that this is "cheating," and then will "improvise" a solo that's complete crap because they don't know what they're doing. Wes Montgomery said that when he played with Lionel Hampton all he knew how to do was play the Charlie Christian solos he'd learned off records, Chick Corea said he composed solos early in his career so he'd know he had something that sounded good, and so on.
    Yeh I think it’s cross purposes. If I have a student wanting to play some jazz who’s only played rock for instance I’m not going to get them to play Green Dolphin Street.

    OTOH, GDS is in Bruce’s list because it represents a crucial part of his ‘Rosetta Stone’ of jazz changes that is his list of 10. And of course no intermediate jazz education is complete without it.

    Hmmm I’m going to put something out there and say that the vocal standard tunes that we play as jazz musicians tend to be the weird and interesting ones rather than the most popular songs from the period. (Except rhythm changes and honeysuckle rose which between them cover a huge amount of songs, sometimes with the a or the b swapped out)

    Going to the vocal rep, a lot of those tunes are much less interesting, but by learning tings like Attya in all 12 you have a great chance of being able to play it.

    That said there’s some mad stuff out there lol. A good turn is a good tune....

  29. #79
    GDS is okay, but does anyone else not like the descending chord thing? just the sound of it, not playing it.
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  30. #80
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    So Footprints (1966) is considered by some people modern jazz...... ok hahahaha

  31. #81
    it's too modern for me and i was born in 86 lol
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  32. #82
    I'm in trouble (after listening to Bruce) as I am a "memorizer"..

    I'll study a tune for weeks and get it in my head and play it slowly over and over
    until it is completely sequestered and begging for water, then begin to play it more
    until it actually sounds OK...

    But learn it in another key? Or all 12? Impossible??

    No, says Bruce, he says the key is to break the song down into the important parts
    and remember how to get from part to part, rather than the actual chords, know instead the
    framework or feel...

    So, I guess just for fun, one of the next songs I do, I'll have to also do it in at least Eb
    as well as the original key and see if I can do it...

    Nobody said it will be easy!
    It seems like the harder I work at something, the more I appreciate the end result.
    ...We'll see...
    measure with micrometer... mark with chalk... cut with axe

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufes View Post
    So Footprints (1966) is considered by some people modern jazz...... ok hahahaha
    Guess it depends on your perspective. If you're a bebop player then it's definitely modern. If you're a fusion player, then it's not. "Modern" doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme, unless you're talking about something like Modernism, which has a more concrete definition and time period.
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  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papawooly View Post
    I'm in trouble (after listening to Bruce) as I am a "memorizer"..

    I'll study a tune for weeks and get it in my head and play it slowly over and over
    until it is completely sequestered and begging for water, then begin to play it more
    until it actually sounds OK...

    But learn it in another key? Or all 12? Impossible??

    No, says Bruce, he says the key is to break the song down into the important parts
    and remember how to get from part to part, rather than the actual chords, know instead the
    framework or feel...

    So, I guess just for fun, one of the next songs I do, I'll have to also do it in at least Eb
    as well as the original key and see if I can do it...

    Nobody said it will be easy!
    It seems like the harder I work at something, the more I appreciate the end result.
    ...We'll see...
    I wonder...when you are "memorizing", how quickly do you get away from the sheet music of chords? And are you learning the melody by ear or from sheet music? The latter is a big no-no IMO; learn all tune melodies by ear. The key to internalizing a tune fast is to get away from sheet music FAST. I do it within about 10 minutes and I'm not a pro. Sounds crazy, but some tunes I can do in 2 minutes and retain if I've listened to them a lot....then I get to work playing them without the music. I will do a new key as soon as possible, often the same day. While doing this I am coming up with logic for why the harmony is the way it is.

  35. #85
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    Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Rufes View Post
    So Footprints (1966) is considered by some people modern jazz...... ok hahahaha
    You know what’s 50 years?

    But seriously the big divide in the rep is between functional and ‘non functional’ harmony. If you play FP with the correct original changes it’s quite strange.

    If your aim is to understand the patterns that are common in vocal standards (ie old pop songs) as opposed to post modal jazz standards (ie tunes written by jazzers), then it’s not a helpful tune.

    For post modal stuff the chord progressions can be anything, there’s not so many patterns - so musicians who play that sort of stuff tend to have a chord by chord approach and are not so good at the pattern recognition that straightahead players get really good at.

    Of course if you want to learn to play ‘modern’ jazz completely you need to master both. Today’s players have to learn so much compared to previous gens.

    TL;DR best advice for practice if you need something to do: LEARN MORE TUNES. Like 100s.

    It’s actually practice, not repertoire. You are practicing learning tunes. If you do them by ear, it’s ear training.

    Even if you forget them, and we all forget tunes, you practice the process. You need to learn lots to get the process working smooth.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-08-2018 at 05:43 AM.

  36. #86
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    Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny View Post
    I wonder...when you are "memorizing", how quickly do you get away from the sheet music of chords? And are you learning the melody by ear or from sheet music? The latter is a big no-no IMO; learn all tune melodies by ear. The key to internalizing a tune fast is to get away from sheet music FAST. I do it within about 10 minutes and I'm not a pro. Sounds crazy, but some tunes I can do in 2 minutes and retain if I've listened to them a lot....then I get to work playing them without the music. I will do a new key as soon as possible, often the same day. While doing this I am coming up with logic for why the harmony is the way it is.
    Yeah this is exactly the thing.

  37. #87
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    Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    The computer ate my longer reply, so I'm going to keep it short. Bruce has very high expectations if he's putting tunes like All the Things You Are on a beginner's list. I'd scrap about half those and replace them with tunes like Blue Bossa and Dearly Beloved, ones that stay in a couple of keys at most.
    I think the hang up here is the term ‘beginner’. I can’t remember what he actually says in the pod, but I don’t know if he used that term, I remember him describing these tunes more as developmental milestones or rites of passage.

    But it’s entirely possible to be a beginner at playing changes and to also know these tunes! So the meaning of beginner varies....

    I kind of feel it’s a balance - teaching players modal or one or two key stuff gives them a way in if they aren’t jazzers, but if they want to be able to participate in actual jazz music making they have to get comfortable with these tunes obviously.

    Depends on the student.

    Bruce is an instructor at MI so it’s not pie in the sky.

  38. #88
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    Christian, everything you said makes a lot of sense to me. You should remain in the EU

  39. #89
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    Elsewhere, Forman refers to this list as a list of "mother tunes." Tunes that are worth knowing but that also open the door to learning many other tunes because so many other tunes share characteristics with these. For example, "ATTYA" teaches you the cycle, in "A-Train" the ii-chord is a dominant, and so on.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufes View Post
    Christian, everything you said makes a lot of sense to me. You should remain in the EU
    Oh god don’t.

  41. #91
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    Hahaha

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Elsewhere, Forman refers to this list as a list of "mother tunes." Tunes that are worth knowing but that also open the door to learning many other tunes because so many other tunes share characteristics with these. For example, "ATTYA" teaches you the cycle, in "A-Train" the ii-chord is a dominant, and so on.
    This makes a lot more sense than labeling them "beginner tunes."

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    This makes a lot more sense than labeling them "beginner tunes."
    Did Bruce define them as such, or was it the OP?

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