What Beginning Jazz Guitarists Never Understand

[Slide]

Do you guys with good time always tap your foot when you play? I read or saw in a Youtube interview that Tommy Emmanuel said to always tap your foot when you play. Apparently Joe Pass would have agreed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=325&v=ReUEjWP9Q4s

[henryrobinett]

No. Not everyone does.

[Groyniad]

barry harris says tap on 1 and 3 (and he tends to know best i think)

that does my head in as a 2 and 4 tapper

its good to tap on 1 and nothing else when the tempo gets silly.

-----

i played for quite a while with a cocktail type pianist used to playing solo gigs all the time

it was just impossible to get him to take the time really seriously

and as a result it never felt to me like we played a single tune together.

very odd feeling. like two people playing the same tune in the same place at the same time but not playing it together. very very odd.

he was always trying to play things he just couldn't quite play without falling out of time.

[coolvinny]

I used to be a 1/3 tapper exclusively but then a teacher suggested I also work on my 2/4 tapping - I did and I felt it solidified my overall time feel. But more and more often when I'm playing with others I realize I'm not tapping at all...not sure whether that is a good or bad thing.

[Boston Joe]

I don't always tap my foot, but I'm usually doing something rhythmic with my body.

[christianm77]

I don't always tap my foot, but I'm usually doing something rhythmic with my body.

I dread to think... :-)

[Boston Joe]

I dread to think... :-)

And rightly so.

[pingu]

I don't always tap my foot, but I'm usually doing something rhythmic with my body.

i have to move around a lot when i play too
i can't not ...
my time is ok tho
i'm always amazed by players who can just stand there and play with great time ...
just can't do that ...
i get funny looks like its uncool or something
i don't really care so that's ok

my teacher asked my class who in the band is most responsible for the time

answer ....



everyone !

[dallasblues]

Totally agree with the importance of time! The funny thing is, there are two guys who used phrases that slipped in and out of time that made an early impression on me. I used to think Miles Davis and Willie Nelson's vocal style were a little "primitive". Now I see that they knew exactly what they were doing. It was intentional! For me... not so much. Ha! But for that matter, John Lee Hooker was all over the place too. And in his case, it might've been "primitive", but it was also what made him unique and influential. Hard to copy!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Totally agree with the importance of time! The funny thing is, there are two guys who used phrases that slipped in and out of time that made an early impression on me. I used to think Miles Davis and Willie Nelson's vocal style were a little "primitive". Now I see that they knew exactly what they were doing. It was intentional! For me... not so much. Ha! But for that matter, John Lee Hooker was all over the place too. And in his case, it might've been "primitive", but it was also what made him unique and influential. Hard to copy!

That kind of vocal phrasing may sound out of time, when we don't really understand what we're listening to, But I'd argue that it's TIME, actually MORE complex TIME , which creates that kind of vocal phrasing. Largely a semantics thing, but otherwise, anyone who played out of time, in the real sense, would sound great.

[Boston Joe]

That kind of vocal phrasing may sound out of time, when we don't really understand what we're listening to, But I'd argue that it's TIME, actually MORE complex TIME , which creates that kind of vocal phrasing. Largely a semantics thing, but otherwise, anyone who played out of time, in the real sense, would sound great.

You have to have really good time to be able to play around with time effectively.

[Vladan]

... I used to think Miles Davis and Willie Nelson's vocal style were a little "primitive". Now I see that they knew exactly what they were doing. It was intentional ...

Probably, but for both of Miles trumpet and Willie's vocals (as much as I've heard them) I'd rather say were out of tune, than Out of Time (Cindy vs. Miles), however, I was told, so I believe, Miles does it on purpose. Nobody ever told me anything about Willie.

That kind of vocal phrasing may sound out of time, when we don't really understand what we're listening to, But I'd argue that it's TIME, actually MORE complex TIME , which creates that kind of vocal phrasing. Largely a semantics thing, but otherwise, anyone who played out of time, in the real sense, would sound great.

It's important to realize when your sense of time does not click with other people, no matter how good and complex it might be. When you come to it, you'd either

- try to get along (quite hard for many),
- find group of people who - can follow - you - can follow them - (almost impossible),
- learn to program drum machine/ sequencer and wail along the beat (not too hard)

You have to have really good time to be able to play around with time effectively.

Doing it in slower tempos does help, a lot. You simply have more time to do it and overall slowness makes it sound acceptable rubato.
Also, doing it at high speed helps, as there's not enough time for listener to notice, especially if accompanied by some visual attraction.
Doing it at right speed ..., that is really hard, especially if not your 'natural' tempo, but dictated by others.

[christianm77]

You have to have really good time to be able to play around with time effectively.

Mike Longo mentioned that when people say 'behind the beat' or 'lay back' - what they actually mean is place the note on the 2nd triplet of the beat. It's quite fun to play around with.

In Mike's understanding, it's all about polyrhythm and really understanding, feeling and referencing these rhythms in your playing.

I don't think there's any sloppiness in, for example, the phrasing of Billie Holiday. It's all referencing one polyrhythm or other.

[destinytot]

...(imo) is that understanding is the booby prize.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Mike Longo mentioned that when people say 'behind the beat' or 'lay back' - what they actually mean is place the note on the 2nd triplet of the beat. It's quite fun to play around with.

In Mike's understanding, it's all about polyrhythm and really understanding, feeling and referencing these rhythms in your playing.

I don't think there's any sloppiness in, for example, the phrasing of Billie Holiday. It's all referencing one polyrhythm or other.

This.

You can really start to "get" Billie's phrasing and others when you understand that Blues inflected players/singers like her aren't doing variations on straight quarter notes as much as variations on offbeat quarter note triplets.

It's a completely different feel and reference, but once you learn to hear it , it doesn't just sound loose and un organized. It's a very defined organization, but not one we're used to hearing in modern music.

[christianm77]

A masterclass in 6/4 over 4/4 phrasing.

The more I listen to this stuff, and try and forget the idea that it is in '4/4' the more I hear the West African roots.

[pkirk]

Mike Longo mentioned that when people say 'behind the beat' or 'lay back' - what they actually mean is place the note on the 2nd triplet of the beat. It's quite fun to play around with.

In Mike's understanding, it's all about polyrhythm and really understanding, feeling and referencing these rhythms in your playing.

I don't think there's any sloppiness in, for example, the phrasing of Billie Holiday. It's all referencing one polyrhythm or other.

Yeah, but have you ever had to back a singer who tries to phrase like Billie....


One type of exercise that addresses time in this way is to start to improvise with rhythm in the "spangalang" ride cymbal pattern

1 2-let 3 4-let (where "let" means the 3rd part of a 8th note triplet)

and once that feels solid,
then to improvise over this same rhythmic pattern but displaced by one 8th note triplet, and two 8th note triplets.


an easier version is to just play quarter note solos, but displaced by one or two 8th note triplet values.


Its fairly easy to do the displaced by two 8th note values, but quite a challenge to do the displaced by one 8th note values , since "ahead of the beat" is easier to feel than "behind the beat"

[destinytot]

A masterclass in 6/4 over 4/4 phrasing.



The more I listen to this stuff, and try and forget the idea that it is in '4/4' the more I hear the West African roots.

"Kamby Bolongo Mean River."

[pingu]

Yeah, but have you ever had to back a singer who tries to phrase like Billie."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...FTXS-HBJbsf5NA

check this out for phrasing baby !

love it , at times she's sooo at the back of the bus .... I don't understand it technically ...
triplets or whatever , have to think about that

its happening tho !

[christianm77]

Yeah, but have you ever had to back a singer who tries to phrase like Billie....


One type of exercise that addresses time in this way is to start to improvise with rhythm in the "spangalang" ride cymbal pattern

1 2-let 3 4-let (where "let" means the 3rd part of a 8th note triplet)

and once that feels solid,
then to improvise over this same rhythmic pattern but displaced by one 8th note triplet, and two 8th note triplets.


an easier version is to just play quarter note solos, but displaced by one or two 8th note triplet values.


Its fairly easy to do the displaced by two 8th note values, but quite a challenge to do the displaced by one 8th note values , since "ahead of the beat" is easier to feel than "behind the beat"

Haha, Oh god, don't - 'tries' being the operative word. 'Ooh, I'll back phrase this. I'll sing behind the beat, that'll be cool.' Of course they don't know how behind the beat is behind the beat so they end up floating and just being out of time. A lot of them have no sense of form or where they are in relation to the other musicians, so they end up just adding in beats.

I blame the jazz education system. Or the parents. Or perhaps society is to blame. On the other hand, we could also blame it on the good times and/or the boogie. Anyway the point is this shit happens and it sucks man.

Nothing random about Billie, or Louis - singing tunes on one note a lot of the time, and making it sound great. And do we learn from this example that the rhythm is far more important than the notes? Of course we don't. :-)

But I have worked with some singers who have a very elastic sense of time while knowing what they are doing. There's two or three of them in London, AFAIK.

It's very stretching and great fun if you realise what they are doing.

Given the prevalence of singers who just plain drop beats and come in early or late and don't realise it, and good singers who in general don't phrase in a particularly bold way, when you have a singer who does this and KNOWS what they are doing.... Well it can require you to re-gear your head as an accompanist haha. That's real jazz singing to me, not scatting, though scatting is cool if it's done well, which is rare IMO.

As instrumentalists we could learn a lot from this... It's the oldest, most neglected form of improvisation in our music.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Haha, Oh god, don't - 'tries' being the operative word. 'Ooh, I'll back phrase this. I'll sing behind the beat, that'll be cool.' Of course they don't know how behind the beat is behind the beat so they end up floating and just being out of time. A lot of them have no sense of form or where they are in relation to the other musicians, so they end up just adding in beats.

I blame the jazz education system. Or the parents. Or perhaps society is to blame. On the other hand, we could also blame it on the good times and/or the boogie. Anyway the point is this shit happens and it sucks man.

Nothing random about Billie, or Louis - singing tunes on one note a lot of the time, and making it sound great. And do we learn from this example that the rhythm is far more important than the notes? Of course we don't. :-)

But I have worked with some singers who have a very elastic sense of time while knowing what they are doing. There's two or three of them in London, AFAIK.

It's very stretching and great fun if you realise what they are doing.

Given the prevalence of singers who just plain drop beats and come in early or late and don't realise it, and good singers who in general don't phrase in a particularly bold way, when you have a singer who does this and KNOWS what they are doing.... Well it can require you to re-gear your head as an accompanist haha. That's real jazz singing to me, not scatting, though scatting is cool if it's done well, which is rare IMO.

As instrumentalists we could learn a lot from this... It's the oldest, most neglected form of improvisation in our music.

That's another good post, Christian. I really think it's a cultural thing and modern music not being based around swing time or triplets much at all, the way it used to be. Once you learn to hear the triplets, you notice that non-singer actors from those old movies of the era have much better phrasing than amateur "jazz" singers now. I think that back in the day, every Joe off the street phrased that type of thing little better than people now. Moderns are mostly faking it, unless, like you say, they've done some serious study.

Outside of some hip-hop Etc. , most of modern music is straight eights. You may get some 6/8 or 12/8 feels, but nothing with more of a blues feel, in terms of polyrhythmic triple vocal phrasing....

[Jonzo]

I heard the bass player from the San Fransico Jazz Collective talk about working with a metronome. He recommended practicing with one click per measure, and varying which beat the click falls on. He also suggested sometimes having one click every two, three or four measures. The idea is that you want the metronome to alert you to when you are drifting, not to provide the rhythm for you.

I don't see how you could improve your rhythm without a point of reference to tell you when you are off.

The Bluegrass band The Osborne Brothers would start off a tune with the metronome going, walk out of the room with everyone playing, and then walk back into the room while ending the song, to see if the were still in sync with the metronome.

Someone told me recently that Chick is a good drummer.

After rhythm comes tone.