Playing guitar and singing at the same time

[MarkRhodes]

I can play and sing a lot of songs with no problem but when it comes to standards and a swing-comp style, my voice tends to want to match the highest tone of the chord I'm voicing. Sometimes I work around this by just putting the melody note on top of the voicing, but then, that's chord melody! (If I do that while I'm singing, what will I do to start a solo chorus?)


"I Got Rhythm" is especially challenging for me to comp and sing at the same time. (I have no problem singing the melody when I'm not comping; I have no problem comping it when I'm not singing it.)

NB: I'm thinking of playing solo here, my guitar and my voice. If I was with a band, I could just lay out while singing...

Anyone else have this problem? Better, anyone NOT have this problem now but used to have it? If so, how did you solve it?

[matt.guitarteacher]

I do a lot of singing/playing outside of jazz and am pretty comfortable. But with jazz, let's just say that both my "singing self" and "playing self" are miles ahead of my "singing/playing" self. Mine's mostly phrasing. If I keep it pretty straight freddie greene-style, I can play more with the vocal, and fill in with whatever in between, but the more I try to play what my "playing self" would want to.

[matt.guitarteacher]

One other thing that's helped me a lot in recent months , Mark: I've been working on across the bar kind of phrasing with my chord melody playing , behind and after the beats, with triplet polyrhythm stuff. Kind of blues feels.

Anyway, working on these ideas vocally as well had really helps all facets of my singing. There's something about breaking rhythmically from the accompaniment. If you're mostly on the beat with the comping, slight rhythmic displacement with the vocal seems to free things up mentally. For whatever reason, it helps with Melody and everything is well. I find that I can improvise melodically better with the slight rhythmic displacement (in the vocal) to start the phrase.

Think Louis Armstrong type phrasing to get started. probably doesn't make sense. I'd be happy to elaborate. Good luck!

[MarkRhodes]

Hey, Matt, I think I get what you're saying. Thanks.

[monk]

Mark,
Do you have a problem singing/playing pop/rock/folk/country tunes with "cowboy chords"?

In other words, do you try to match your voice of the top note of the simple grips. If not, you may be doing something to overcomplicate the jazz/standard performance.

American-style swing rhythm guitar should be a straight legato four to the bar, as opposed to the Gypsy-Euro chunkety-chunk swing rhythm.

It shouldn't be comping. It should be rhythm guitar.

If you are, indeed, trying to comp, this may be what's throwing you off.

If you are playing rhythm instead of comping, it may be that one or the other aspects of your performance is not completely internalized.

If you can answer my initial question "No", then I don't think you should be having too much trouble.

Send me a video in an eMail if you want and I might be able to offer more concise advice.
Regards, Jerome

[MarkRhodes]

Mark,
Do you have a problem singing/playing pop/rock/folk/country tunes with "cowboy chords"?...

As a rule, no. Well, sometimes boogie / riff things where I sometimes stop singing the melody and "sing the riff." (Which would not be the top note but the bottom.) Part of this stems from not being any great shakes as a singer. But I am getting better....

(I appreciate the distinction between comping and rhythm.)

I'll make a short video over the weekend and send to you privately. Thanks for the offer to listen and assess.)

[targuit]

Singing is an art like playing the guitar. Practice helps. Last night, I decided to record a difficult song for me - Alfie - as just one track guitar and vocal. I think it came off rather well with qualifications.

That song by Burt Bacharach and Hal Davis is one of the most difficult for me to sing in terms of the melody at certain points in the song. But I just decided to wing it. I set the sole microphone in a different position than I normally would for a simul vocal plus classical guitar because I wanted especially to capture the guitar very well acoustically. Or one could say I gave priority to the guitar rather than to the vocal in terms of mic position. The result was very nice sound as regards the guitar and probably a less than ideal chest heavy sound of the vocal - not bad but not what I would get from recording the guitar and vocal separately. Of course, this would not be an issue if I had a second mic at my disposal other than my cheapo MXL 990 if I recall the model no.

But one benefit of recording at least a scratch track in this way is because you can lock in the rhythm and groove of the guitar much better with the vocal phrasing when recorded together. I intended what I did more as a scratch track to be replaced later with two separates, but I ended up liking this one as is. Jeff rightly keeps telling me to put up just such a 'real time' track and he is right.

Just my reflections, but what I find is that when you record in this manner you prioritize the melody by actually singing it. So you are listening or monitoring your own singing, allowing the guitar part to emerge very organically as a complement harmonically and rhythmically to the melody. But the melody of Alfie is somewhat challenging imo to the singer because of the contour and leaps up or down at certain spots. On the other hand one tends to play safer or a bit more close to the vest in this situation with the guitar accompaniment, which is probably a good thing. The KISS thing.

One odd insight came to me as I listened to the recording several times playing with dynamics and EQ setting a bit. I record to a click track generally as I did last night. At one point as I listened to the playback, I realized that I had slipped at one point from lento 4/4 with typical emphasis on the first beat to an interlude with emphasis on the backbeat 2 and 4. What I realized is that it happened during a section where I had a rallentando or ritardando section, only to go back to the regular 4/4 emphasis after a second rallentando section. Recording to a click track in this situation is not easy. But I love playing off the back beat and it does happen in jazz music, too.

I did not expect to get the track without mishap, but it came off pretty well with the qualification about the less than ideal mic placement for the voice. I should get a small condenser instrument mic for this type of situation and mic the guitar separately. But I recount this only as an example of factors entailed in singing and playing simultaneously. Certainly not typical even in jazz at the pro level other than George Benson.

So how did the guitar part come out? Sounds just a bit tentative. In part because for some reason this song has presented more challenges then some. But the chord progression itself is fabulous in terms of the permutations Bacharach (who studied under some big time composers) puts the tune through. I created an arrangement transcribed by ear off of a couple of performances including Bacharach himself. Talk about an unusual singing voice - no one would ever take him for Bocelli, but Bacharach still can render the song in a unique style. One can find a video of his rendition on YT.

But the song really is the thing.

[mr. beaumont]

Rhythmic things always mess me up more than harmonic, but as a rule, I should not be singing anywhere outside of my living room.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Rhythmic things always mess me up more than harmonic, but as a rule, I should not be singing anywhere outside of my living room.

Nope. You let the cat out of the bag, dude. You're long overdue for another singing post.

[MarkRhodes]

Rhythmic things always mess me up more than harmonic, but as a rule, I should not be singing anywhere outside of my living room.

Don't sell yourself short. If you do songs that you genuinely enjoy and are not hopelessly beyond your vocal range, people can dig it. Especially since they aren't expecting Sinatra...

My mother has a much better ear than I do-----when I was a kid, she made me go outside because I was playing in one key and singing in another (-which I no longer do)----but she tends to prefer singers whose voices are not "pretty" (as she would say.) She loves to hear Dylan sing, and Leon Russell too. And Rod Stewart. Yeah, she also loves Sinatra and Tony Bennett but her thing is, "If the singer sounds like he's talking to me, I just have to listen." Your love of a tune is what people pick up on.

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks Mark.

I do sing a lot--I'll do it live, if people ask, and I always sing harmonies when doing country gigs. I just don't like the sound of my own voice...always sounds odd to me, spoken or sung.

But one of my things my "jazz mentor" told me is EVERYBODY can sing. And should.

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks Mark.

I do sing a lot--I'll do it live, if people ask, and I always sing harmonies when doing country gigs. I just don't like the sound of my own voice...always sounds odd to me, spoken or sung.

But one of my things my "jazz mentor" told me is EVERYBODY can sing. And should.

I've read that John Lennon hated the sound of his own voice. In fact, I think everyone is surprised by how their recorded voice sounds----we normally hear our voices from inside, not outside of us. It's never the same.

[targuit]

The sound of your own voice can be shocking to us. But at least today with the digital technology we approach transparency. As a kid I played with my Dad's TEAC reel to reel tape deck which had "sound on sound" but today is like another planet. Even with all the processing available if you have a true DAW (I don't yet), I want to hear what is closest to the truth. Whatever that is.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Also, regarding singing the melody instead of the top note of the chord, you kind of have to hear the pitch ahead of time and sing right on top of where you want it to be, beat-wise. Otherwise you hear that topnote , and lose it if you're not rocksolid yet.

I learned this teaching junior high choirs. Often kids are pretty good with harmony and learning to read solfeggio etc., but when you put the multiple voice parts together, the harmony parts kind of fall apart. if you push a little harder for them to sing right on top of the beat, before they hear the melody, the harmony's fine, because they already know it solidly in isolation . Maybe, don't let the chord get out in front of you too much? Depends on the context I guess.

[targuit]

Rhythmic things always mess me up more than harmonic, but as a rule, I should not be singing anywhere outside of my living room.

You finally got something right, Jeff! The living room - that's exactly where I record. But I hear the clothes closet is a good choice, too.....

Matt - You are absolutely right about group or choral singing - even a group of backup singers. You have to be pretty strict about the time and note placement as you said. And as Jeff mentioned they have to learn the rhythmic devices like rests and triplets and such.

[monk]

………..but as a rule, I should not be singing anywhere outside of my living room.

Billie Holliday, Hoagy Carmichael, Willie Nelson. None had/have great voices. All were/are great singers.

Go for it!

[MarkRhodes]

Also, regarding singing the melody instead of the top note of the chord, you kind of have to hear the pitch ahead of time and sing right on top of where you want it to be, beat-wise. Otherwise you hear that topnote , and lose it if you're not rocksolid yet.

.

I think that's exactly it! I'll work on it. I used to sing in a choir and did okay. I enjoyed it. But what is happening is just what you are saying---I am hearing the top note (-or riff) and part of me wants to sing THAT. If I'm singing with someone else, I tend to drift into their range. I just have to "get over it," I guess. But yes, that's exactly my problem. Practice, practice, practice...

[edh]

Satchmo also didn't have a good voice.

[monk]

Satchmo also didn't have a good voice.

Thanks! I dropped the ball. I usually include him. He occupies a very special place in the history of American singers.

[MarkRhodes]

Satchmo also didn't have a good voice.

True. Great singer though. I love his duets with Ella Fitzgerald. (Now she had a great voice.) But he was a great musician and that informed the way he sang. Before we get carried away, we need to recognize that many people with less-than-pristine voices make people want to run out of the room when they sing. The ones who captivate us know what to do with their voices. (Leonard Cohen is another one who is less than a great singer but who is--or can be--a masterful vocalist.)

[targuit]

Billie Holliday, Hoagy Carmichael, Willie Nelson. None had/have great voices. All were/are great singers.

Go for it!

I'll take Billie and Willie.

It is an odd problem with wanting to sing the top note of a chord, Mark. But in effect, you want to sing one of the harmony notes or parts in place of the actual melody note. With some of the more angular and leap - filled contour melodies, that can be an issue.

I sometimes make minor changes to melodies in some songs where we are talking a half step here or there. Body and Soul. My Foolish Heart. I don't think an occasional 'edit' is not respecting the song, more like accommodating how the singer hears it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

All things being equal, it's easier to sing easy songs than hard songs, songs I know well versus less familiar. It's much easier to sing songs which are harmonically simple, easier to play on the guitar. Easier to sing diamonds (held notes on the changes).

And of course, you have to know it cold, if you're adding other elements of difficulty. I pride myself on being able to sing whatever melody easily, especially with basic changes, outside of jazz, and I can sing almost any melody a capella.

So, I was kind of pissed at myself, when , one day, I realized that I couldn't really sing Stardust easily without chord accompaniment. I mean, I could kind of work it out a capella , but it was actually some WORK. Of course, the verse of that song, is its own project as well. Spent a little time with it, and it's easy now.

It's funny. Sometimes, we don't know that we DON'T KNOW something. Simple increases in difficulty will shine a light on the problem we didn't know was there.