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Geez, what a thread it turn out to be! Gotta fish hard for a good info in all this bickering...LOL
Originally Posted by Reg
Reg, cool exercise! One question: what is the logic of these arpeggios/chord progression? It's Gbm7b5- Bbm7b5- Ddim7- Gbm7b5 right? What's the theoretical explanation and practical application? Especially practical... Thanks!Last edited by Hep To The Jive; 01-20-2016 at 02:45 AM. Reason: spelling chords
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01-20-2016 01:17 AM
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If you play it out in maj 3rds you go through 3 key centers, 4 in minor 3rds. you can mix moving in minor and major but it gets tough. i found this sort of thing in advancing guitarist, he goes into triads and moves them through different cycles.
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Ok, I understand it moves in maj 3rds in this exercise, but why? I mean if you spell out the chords, it doesn't create a sensible musical device that you would apply to a tune, or maybe I'm just thinking in terms of standard jazz too much? Originally Posted by jazzguy100
Also, if this is an exercise for drilling m7b5 arp., why Ddim7?
Just trying to find the way of thinking behind it, that's all
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i think the Ddim7 was a mistake. as for tunes, giant steps has that sort of minor 3rd movement. coltrane used that in his later tunes. plus with dominant chords, you can move major or/and minor triads in minor 3rds to spell out a half-whole diminished sound. I don't actually know any theory behind it, I'm waiting to see that guys answer as well.
but still worth being able to do i reckon.Last edited by jazzguy100; 01-20-2016 at 02:55 AM.
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Hey Hep to... sorry... was really just an example for Jay to sight read through. I picked Gb because as I said... it's generally F#... like F#-7b5 B7b13 E-9 the enharmonic thing. Generally if you have your neck together... or understand basic chord patterns... you somewhat naturally get it... and the Ddim. was just a control ... see if jay would even notice. So again sorry, but obviously you did notice... thanks. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
The practical application of have fingerings for two octaves of -7b5 chords... can be as simple as part of having your fingerings together for the fret board... two octaves usually help naturally clean up or show where one might have breakdowns. And -7b5's are generally the last of the basic 7th chords constructed from each scale degree of Major scale... some say the tonicization of the scale.
Once someone has the basic patterns together with reference to the tonic... to work on individual fingerings... playing the two octave patterns through cycles or patterns, again just helps find or show where you have problems.
Getting closer to practical applications... once you have the fingerings down and somewhat the chord sound etc... internalized. When you play through tunes you don't need to think when you hear or want to improv and imply that harmonic reference... -7b5. How ever your using, the common application would be using as part of that altered II V going to a target... either I or implied I chord.
The very typical approach of creating harmonic motion when soloing... V - I's etc using tonal targets. And then adding the related II to the V chord ... So your playing through the bridge to a bop tune, say "No Moe"... any tune.. from the III7 chord...D7 going to the VI7 chord... I tend to use II V's on the last two beats to approach the target, which created more of a tonal target... anyway I would use those fingering of -7b5 chords and then the altered V to approach G7 or the VI7 chord.... so A-7b5 D7#9b13 and then the VI7 or G7 chord. Here's an example...Last edited by Reg; 01-20-2016 at 09:32 AM.
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Jay, the key signature thing is a classic targuit dead horse which has been beaten to death. People have answered this multiple times, and yet, you keep preaching about it.
Honestly, as someone with a classical background , who is not a real jazz player, I ALSO find it annoying as hell to not have key signatures. It irritates me personally, but all that being said, that's really MY issue, not everyone else's.
The fact is, the key signature thing you're describing IS common practice in JAZZ. My own personal discomfort with it only points to my NOT being a real jazz player. It would be arrogant and pretentious for me to constantly preach at others that anything which is common practice in the JAZZ style is "wrong" because I'm not personally comfortable with it, as a and non-jazzer.
It would be the same as a jazz player griping constantly, in a classical setting, among classical musicicians, about those annoying key signatures in place of accidentals.
Your stance on this issue is clearly understood for all time. Put it in your sig. and drop it.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-20-2016 at 10:58 AM.
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Jay... why would I put a key sig on an example that modulates through 3 keys. Jazz is not classical music. Key signatures are used for implying the tonal reference or for notational aspects... Most modern jazz tune... and arrangements of standards....obviously not all jazz tunes and none that you play...anyway... the reasons for Sigs are not there.
Personally...when you sight read.... it shouldn't make a difference.
The point of the exercise was explained above with an example... It's about technique. I only posted an example of possible practical example for Hip To be... because he asked. And I'm only responding to your question... because your acting close to normal social interaction...and your questions are good.
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Matt - Oh, I left them out. Sorry! No horses were harmed in the creation of my opinion, Matt. No preaching is involved. I'm an agnostic.
Thanks, Reg! I appreciate you going to the trouble to upload that 'drill', I really do. I just don't like it. Some like chocolate, some vanilla. It is not for me, but thanks. I will muddle on somehow...
I'm lazy, Reg! I just find music with key signatures easier to read. I suppose for the same reason that a song like Body and Soul which modulates through three key changes is generally written with the new key signatures each time. At least in the sheet music that I read.
Anyway, I am not allowed to express that opinion, so we agree...it never happened....Last edited by targuit; 01-20-2016 at 11:16 AM.
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I think you misunderstand the point of the exercise. Am7b5 is not a transitional chord in this context. It is the first chord of a minor turnaround: ii-V7-i. E.g. Am7b5 - D7alt - Gm. Originally Posted by targuit
If you are playing a solo at a brisk tempo, sooner or later you'll have to negotiate such a progression, at speed, in eighth notes. To me, the point of the exercise is to train your fingers (in several keys) to play the arpeggio on that ii chord as soon as you hit it, without having to think about it much. I guess you could also transpose the drill to the intervening positions then you could easily practise it in all 12 keys. It's unlikely you would play that whole drill in its entirety on any given tune, that's not what it's intended for. You would use segments of it.
I can see the benefit, as negotiating the m7b5 chord was always a weak point in my solos, so a couple of years ago I drilled my own arpeggios to improve it.
I think the problem is that you tend to view all this in the context of chord melody, accompaniment to a vocal, voice-leading chords etc. as that is probably your main area of interest. Which is all great and worthy of its own study. But this exercise is not about that. It's about playing solo lines (at least to me, it is), which is a different topic.
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I see, that Ddim7 throw me off a bit.. but in general F#-7b5 B7b13 E-9 is exactly how I would think of something like that.. So Bbm7b5 would be a sub for Bb7, like an altered chord? Originally Posted by Reg
I guess I was also confused because the original exercise didn't really resolve to anything, now the new one here is no questions from me, I see clearly what's going on... they are all good though, m7b5 arpeg. never got enough workout from me, so good to come across, thanks man!
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This thread is in the "getting started" section. If you are not "getting started" and have no interest in helping others get started, please don't post.
Can we stay on topic from this point forward? Please see new thread starter.
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I'm 62, and trying to learn this stuff without a teacher. I was hoping for an apparent shortcut or a light bulb moment where there is none. Guess I'd better get started.
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Yes!! Go to "I Can't Get Started" section and come back when you ready! Originally Posted by Mr. Pocket
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Good points Mr Pocket. This forum is at its best when people try to help and share stuff. Originally Posted by Mr. Pocket
Maybe I can share some arp stuff too. A couple of years ago I realised my arps were a bit patchy as I had never really practised them systematically. Where this really showed up was on m7b5 chords, I was always going off the rails a bit on those, note-wise. So I basically dreamed up some arp exercises to improve matters. I broke the arps down into these categories: major, minor, minor7b5, dominant, dominant altered. Then I worked out patterns for these, initially all at the 5th position/fret for convenience, on each string set. I played the arps as 1,3,5,7,9 as I think a lot of jazz phrases tend to turn or start on the 9th rather than the tonic. (Wes Montgomery and Charlie Parker spring to mind).
So I did these starting on 6th string, then on the 5th string, then on the 4th string. I did some starting on the 3rd string, although this usually means you have to go out of position and go up a string. But I did them anyway for completeness. I didn't really worry about what key they were in, it's all transposable anyway. I realised later that going up in 4ths like this was actually quite handy, it's like the V to I cycle really (e.g. rhythm changes bridge).
Mostly the arps started with the 2nd finger, but for the minor and m7b5 I think there were 2 fingerings, starting either on the first finger or on the 4th finger (in which case you would go below the 5th position for some of the other notes).
For the dominant altered I just assumed #5 to keep things simple. I think this one started on the 4th finger too.
Later I got into playing them (or phrases based on them) in a continuous cycle, so for example dominants in the cycle used for the Rhythm Changes bridge (another thing I was having trouble with!). You can play this endlessly as it loops through all 12 keys, so a good workout!
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One correction to that (just got home and tried them on the guitar). For the dominant altered I play 1, 3, #5, 1 (i.e. at the octave), b9. Just sounds better to me for some reason.
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A good exercise i learnt is to break up the fret board in 5 fret blocks, say you start on F to A on the low E string, you cant go beyond 5th fret. you can only go in one direction until you've reached the limit of the position. then go through cycle of 4ths/5ths and play through all the different arpeggios maj, maj7, maj7#5, dom7, dom7#5, min,min7,min7b5,minma7, dim7, augmented triad and so on.
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Grahambop, good stuff. I have the same thing with m7b5, I think because I've always started with I and just run out of motivation by the time I get to vii to really work them out. I have go to positions for all the diatonic arpeggios at this point, but I'm looking more into these 5 fret stretch positions that I've ignored (because they feel bad for me to play) until seeing that every jazz oriented fingering grid uses stretches. I can't avoid them forever I guess. Especially doing things like this:
Originally Posted by jazzguy100
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Maybe I get lucky this time and recieve an answer, or couple ...
How do YOU finger Dom7 arpeggio starting on tonic, 6th string, 2nd finger?
How do YOU finger m7 arpeggio starting on tonic, 6th string, 4th finger?
What is YOUR default and how do YOU finger m7b5 arpeggio starting on tonic, 6th string, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th finger?
Do YOU use same fingerings up and down?
Do YOU use same fingerings for alternate and sweep (picking)?
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The fact that everyone mentions having trouble with m7b5's is the very reason why it's important to sometimes study things in isolation, as a drill, outside of the context of a tune. The reason why most, including myself, have more trouble with them, is that they occur so much less frequently in tunes than the other types. Originally Posted by Mr. Pocket
It's a form problem which every music student encounters and must deal with. More of a form problem than a difficulty problem. You have to work on the hard parts more. Most hard parts aren't "harder", they're just less frequently played, or less familiar. The B section is always the worst if you just "play through".
Now, I need to practice those pesky m7b5's....
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Matt, if you keep in mind that the diatonic VII chord is a viable sub for both II & V and resolves nicely to both Imaj and VI, it's relative minor - it actually occurs or can be used quite frequently. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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m7b5 arpeggio based off 3rd of a dominant = 3579
m7b5 arpeggio based off 6th of a minor = 6135
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Hi Vladan, I am not sure who you addressed... I just can describe how I did. I had approximately the same situation as grahambop described. I could play, but occasionally I felt insecure on some chords or postion so I decided to fix it with some time of practice. So it was not completele novice practice routinve. I did default fingerings in position with 2nd finger on 6th streing (very close to what Reg described - as it seems to me)... the idea is that there's always 2nd finger aginst root fret... that gives you 2 frets below and two frets above zone where you play... you do not think about splitiing the fretbord - you just kind re-focus the view of it... if you need to play Amaj7 - you just immediately there with your 2nd finger on the 5th fret and with 2 frets down and 2 up... and it does not matter how lmany frets are there at all))) you're there in Amaj7 universe at the moment - at leasr at the doorstep... I also played it in diatonic approach like Amaj7 - then shift to B-7 then to C#-7 etc... I'll explain why I think it is important... you get inopirtant sounds into your ears, you get to hear C#-7 in realtion to Amaj7.. you're in the key... and in you play extended C#min9 it will give you #11 in A... I mean it's important because you'r not only drilling patteren but establish references between chord... at the same time it's very simple to release thiese realtions if you just play B-7 arpeggio separetely (after you did it in cycle) a few times and then play progression for this chord as tonic you really get the Dorian sound in your ears and dorian patterns in your hands... it's kind of quality of arpeggios in general they help to hear both linear and harmonic quality of a chord - kind of sacel+chord in one.... another point why I think it's important to play it in diatonic step by step cycle.. because you get beete view of a fretboard in relation to concept - you learn not just shift patterns mechanically - you learn to be in certain musical context and to swift to another.... what might be a problem for some is the fingering... it presumes stretches of the 1st finger, and jumps of barring with the 2nd finger in some patterns... for me it was not a problem but I can understand that some would not like it. I want to stress also that I play also different patterns of arpeggios - I also like playing arpeggios diagonally - because I like slide phrasing it gets... this excersise I described is more to release versatile vew of fretboard... it really helped to stop thinking of any pattern after all... but again I was not novice I learnt classical could sight -read etc. So proabably for complete novices it might be more challeging approach... I also added Drop 2 shape on 1-2-3-4 and Drop 3 on 6-4-3-2 at the begininnig of the excersise (they are symmetrical - you just throw root tone from 1st string to 6th and they are connected with the same position) Originally Posted by Vladan
Last edited by Jonah; 01-21-2016 at 03:39 AM.
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so dom 7 on the 6th string with second finger. 1 octave only though. same fingering up and down Originally Posted by Vladan
2nd finger on the tonic(6th string),
1st on the 3rd(5th string),
4th finger on the 5th (5th string),
2nd finger on the b7(4th string)
4th finger on tonic (4th string)
minor 7
4th finger on the tonic(6th string),
2nd on the b3rd(5th string),
1st finger on the 5th (4th string),
4th finger on the b7(4th string)
1st finger on tonic (3rd string)
half dim
4th finger on the tonic(6th string),
2nd on the b3rd(5th string),
1st finger on the b5th (4th string),
4th finger on the b7(4th string)
1st finger on tonic (3rd string)
3rd finger on the tonic(6th string),
1st on the b3rd(5th string),
4th finger on the b5th (5th string),
2nd finger on the b7(4th string)
4th finger on tonic (4th string)
1st on tonic (6th string)
4th on b3 (6th string)
2nd on b5 (5th)
1st on b7th(4th)
3rd on tonic(4th)
hope this is what you meant. not sure if you were replying to something else specifically, I just jumped in.Last edited by nick1994; 01-21-2016 at 04:41 AM.
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Thank you Jonah, very thorough and informative on approach and how to maximize the benefit.
I was, however, more about the very surface of the matters,
For example, when I asked about Dom7/ root on 6th 2nd finger in 2 octaves, how do YOU finger it, I was not addressing any particular person, I wanted to stress I'm after ones particular default way to do it, as oposed to going into possibilities, so for example, one answer could be:
strings/ fingers (s=strtch)
6th/ 2
5th/ 1 4
4th/ 2 4
3rd/ 3
2nd/ 2
1st/ 1s 2
and so on.
Yes, that's what I meant, thank you. I hoped for 2 octaves, though, but again, thank you. Originally Posted by nick1994
Last edited by Vladan; 01-21-2016 at 05:06 AM.
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i'll just do the first arpeggio for you in 2 octaves. remember fingerings differ, some people like to roll their fingers, some don't.
2nd finger on the tonic(6th string),
1st on the 3rd(5th string),
4th finger on the 5th (5th string),
2nd finger on the b7(4th string)
4th finger on tonic (4th string)
3rd on the 3rd (3rd string)
2nd on the 5th (2nd string)
1st on the b7th (1st)
3rd on the tonic (1st)
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