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I think m7b5 can take any combination of b9,9 and b13,13.
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01-15-2016 05:54 PM
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Okay. But he was specifically asking if reg was referring to diatonic , which he was.
Originally Posted by katamaranos
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-15-2016 at 06:48 PM.
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Right. My mistake. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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It has the possibilities... but generally the extensions are just like the chord tones... they're implied
So G-7b5's standard major reference or 7th degree of Ab... b9, 11 and b13
G-7b5 as 6th degree of Bb Mel. Min. 1 b3 b5 b7 9 11 b13
G-7b5 as 7th degree of Ab MM .........1 b3 b5 b7 b9 b11 b13
G-5b5 as 2nd degree of F Har. Min.....1 b3 b5 b7 b9 11 13
G-7b5 as 2nd degree of F Har. Maj. .....1 b3 b5 b7 9 11 13
You can enharmonically get from...
4th degree of D Har. Min. #11 becomes b5
from Half/whole Dim.
I sub Dom7ths #9 G-7b5 becomes G7#9... or altered version collection of notes... better for some blue note organizations. Again the point... I can drop any of these complete neck patterns and fingering with a basic starting tonal reference... anytime I choose to... and all the extensions are already spelled out... I do need to understand what I'm doing... or I could just have a collection of prememorized relationships of which grids work in different harmonic situations... or even which tunes... I don't use the memorized tune relationships generally... But I do have memorized sounds... different arpeggio patterns, which include the entire neck that I do use many times. Somewhat like memorizing licks.
When I worked on patterns... with reference to chord tones....
3 5 7 1
11 13 1 9
5 7 9 3
13 1 3 11
7 9 11 5
1 3 5 13
9 11 13 7
3 5 7 1
I can play this pattern in any of the 7 position patterns... Like in Gmaj. doesn't matter where I play the pattern... it's all in reference to Gmaj. root 6th string 3rd fret.
I don't need to really think or I can think... I do generally think with reference to numbers as compared to note name, same with roman numerals... b9... not Ab. But doesn't really make a difference.
And if I change the reference to A- or dorian... it's the same notes... but now all the relationships change.
The notes would be with reference to Rt.6 at 5th fret..."A" So 1,b3,5,b7,9,11,13 all the possibilities also change.Last edited by Reg; 01-15-2016 at 06:56 PM.
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Not trying to disrupt anything here, but why not just learn songs? One of the first thing to do with a new song is to arpeggiate through the chords and find out where the melody notes are if you need to. Or practice your arpeggios of the chords as you sing the melody.
I say this simply for a couple of reasons. One thing is that I don't enjoy playing exercises just for their own sake, such as playing through chord inversions. That is not voice leading per se which is key to playing well. And you might as well do something that helps you concretely learn tunes. An example would be to play and sing "Too Young", the beautiful ballad made famous by Nat King Cole. Arpeggiate the chords with attention to voice leading in the bass and melody lines.
I can't remember the last time the fans requested "Hey, could you play that arpeggio study, you know, the one with the inversions?"
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The more I understand how the arpeggios fit together, the easier it should be to voice lead over chord sequences. Practicing inversions allows the ability to start on different chord tones. By practicing arpeggios in all positions, I eventually won't have to think about it and I can have more freedom to improvise through changes without ever getting lost, and knowing where the chord tones are all over the neck for each chord. The idea of going through common chord sequences has been mentioned a few times as well, which is the same as learning tunes to me. I'm also working on learning songs while developing a system of accessing the arpeggios. Hopefully it will allow me to play through changes without jumping to whatever position I know best for each set of chord tones.
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EDIT: I think that playing everything everywhere in every key is a lifetime goal. Anyway I'm very far from that point.
Last edited by katamaranos; 01-15-2016 at 09:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by SeanZ
i seem to recall it being explained like this:
1. diatonic to the key means diatonic to the key of Ab in your example, right?
2. the available tensions to the VII-7b5 chord are 11 and b13. b9 (Ab in this case) is not an available tension because it's a half step up from the chord tone. tensions 11 and b13 are a whole step up from the chord tones on the VII chord.
nevertheless, playing constant diatonic thirds from all scale tones (in major, melodic and harmonic minor) in groups of 3,4,5,6,7 is still good practice from a technique building perspective. i could be wrong but i believe that was Reg's point.Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-16-2016 at 02:18 AM.
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well, can you remember the last time you saw the fans jump to their feet when inspired by a monster jazz virtuoso who was practically exploding with a monsoon of notes at the pinnacle of their solo, and to the point that it was almost overwhelming? Originally Posted by targuit
Not trying to disrupt anything here, but why not just learn songs? One of the first thing to do with a new song is to arpeggiate through the chords and find out where the melody notes are if you need to. Or practice your arpeggios of the chords as you sing the melody.
I say this simply for a couple of reasons. One thing is that I don't enjoy playing exercises just for their own sake, such as playing through chord inversions. That is not voice leading per se which is key to playing well. And you might as well do something that helps you concretely learn tunes. An example would be to play and sing "Too Young", the beautiful ballad made famous by Nat King Cole. Arpeggiate the chords with attention to voice leading in the bass and melody lines.
I can't remember the last time the fans requested "Hey, could you play that arpeggio study, you know, the one with the inversions?"
if so, how do you think a musician gets the the point where they can do that? in other words, how and what do you think they practiced to get there?
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I'm with Fumbles here. This being a playoff weekend for the NFL, a football analogy might help: fans want to see games, but players know that games come once a week while practice comes much more often. No one wants to watch the players practice, or watch them watch film of their upcoming opponents, or spend hours in the weight room, but all that (and more) is how they get to be the players we cheer on Sundays. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
I remember Jerry Seinfeld saying he worked for six months to get ready for his first appearance on the Tonight Show. He did his bit every night--sometimes twice--in clubs, honing it and honing it some more, and then he goes on the show, does his five minutes (-which went over well) and people said he was a natural....
Joe Pass was playing 6-8 hours a day when he was 10 years old! Do that for ten years and there are many things that become automatic, become things you don't have to think about, but that doesn't mean you didn't work to reach that point. Or that work is unimportant because no one pays to see it.
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You can do whatever... however you choose. But on this thread we're talking about arpeggios and how to internalize them.
Your not going to internalize what you don't know or can't play....it's just not going to happen. Even after a lifetime.
We're not talking about learning tunes... learning and internalizing arpeggios is not practicing performance, learning tunes or practicing arpeggios over changes from tunes. Arpeggios are a technical skill... they're not music.
Technical skills are used to perform music etc... And your level of performance is related to your level of technical skills.
Once you actually know and can perform arpeggios....then you would use the skill and apply to playing through tunes or any performance or practicing performance skills.
Obviously... during the process you will use what you know for performance etc...
Your not going to really develop any skill without have an organized approach of the neck... it's like saying I want to learn how to play guitar... but not use my hands.
Mr Pocket.... playing in one position is not the goal... it is a training exercise etc... The ability to be able to jump around the neck to perform... is very useful, it is also a skill that can be used....if your name has any reference to being in a pocket, it is a great tool for helping establish a groove which can lock in that pocket.
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It's a logical approach to me as well. I would never want to be restricted to playing a tune in one position. I'm looking at all this as a way of breaking things down into bite size pieces, so that I can nail something and move on. Then I have a reference for when I'm transcribing, or improvising. I want to be able to quickly analyse a sound I dig, know why I dig it from a chord tone standpoint, relate it to a pattern or position I've worked with, and finally know how to reproduce it whenever I want without guesswork. That's freedom to me. I've been at it for a while, and I've tried skipping steps along the way, realizing that everything takes much longer than it should the way I've been going about it and even then nothing is firmly grounded.
I had been connecting two octaves of (1357) arpeggios, and using slides to connect them. Since this thread, I've been playing through the diatonic chord scale in second position starting on the lowest note available and ending with the highest. Adding the additional notes has helped, and prevents me from always starting on the root. This thread has given me some more to chew on for now, but I'm not sure where the next position would be to work on. Once I learn the static way of playing them, my natural inclination will be to find smooth ways of linking them. I'm a bit of a stickler for economic movement.
I would like to find a reference for a fingering system to work with, to give myself some structure. I tend to spend a lot of time trying to find every possible way of doing everything, but right now I want to focus on one system. If anyone has a link I would really appreciate it.
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Good reference for the above link:
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Super
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Don't confuse voice leading with practicing inversions. You should hear the individual voices - bass, melody, inner voices. Listen, you can practice anything your heart desires. But in the end you have to play songs. Not etudes, nor exercises. Songs.
Want to stick to football analogies? Fine. You can be good at doing the football drills where you run through the tires. But they don't pay you $5 million a year to do that. They pay you to score touchdowns and be better than the average guy.
And if you find arpeggios hard to play, you are not even a benchwarmer yet.
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Originally Posted by targuit
no need to insult.
the thing is, with the exception of your last sentence, you seem to have taken the classic either/or angle, as so often happens here. you know, the typical and constant "should i do this or should i do that"?
well, someone else commented on this recently in another thread --->>> jazz guitarists are always looking for a shortcut, almost like "try this one weird trick to develop jazz guitar mastery".
it doesn't work that way. why not do "both"? why must it always be "do this vs. that"?
technique and repertoire are each/both required. 'nuff said.
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Why stumble around in a dark room when you can light a candle?
I don't think there are many guitar players I listen to that didn't practice scales and arpeggios at some point.Last edited by Mr. Pocket; 01-18-2016 at 06:52 PM. Reason: I wrote a bunch of nonsense
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I agree. I wonder if on piano forums members talk about whether they need to develop technique or not. I doubt it. I doubt there is much such talk on saxophone forums either. Certainly not on classical guitar forums. But I don't know, as I don't frequent them. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Now, if one has already done this and developed good technique, then one needs only to keep it up, not gain it.
If you know a thousand songs but have poor technique, it's going to betray you when you play them.
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"I wonder if on piano forums members talk about whether they need to develop technique or not. I doubt it." - Mark
I would agree.Last edited by targuit; 01-17-2016 at 06:40 AM.
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Not looking for an argument or trying to start one. Just discussing. Technical exercises are essential. Playing scales are essential. Reading music is essential. Developing the ears to use that technique is essential.
Arpeggio practice - good. Developing independence and finger dexterity - good. Learning voice leading in the context of songs - essential. Why not combine these together? Harmonic context - essential.
The above is just an opinion. Everyone has one.
Peace, love and many hours of arpeggio practice!
Last edited by targuit; 01-17-2016 at 06:28 AM.
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Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but this early morning inspired by this thread on arpeggios, I played through several standards with an emphasis on arpeggios, which are after all simply a technique of articulating the notes of a chord. I play as I read the forum or other sites.
Songs I played through included Too Young which makes a lovely arpeggio study, Route 66, Summertime, and numerous jazz blues tunes including All Blues. Of course, I incorporated voice leading, rhythm, and in effect scalar work into the practice. Much more fun for me at this point. But this is my approach and not a prescription. Merely a suggestion.
And just to see if I had the "distracted" chops for something "classical", I also played through one of my favorite Villalobos songs Choros no. 1 while rereading this thread. I am a big advocate of letting your subconscious take the wheel. I'll be doing some of this tomorrow watching a little football, too. Better for me than eating a bowl of Nachos....
Last edited by targuit; 01-17-2016 at 06:39 AM.
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One aspect little discussed in this is that by practicing arpeggios (and scales for that matter) you train your ear, mind and hand together where to find the tones you want subconsciously, allowing you to "play what you hear" effortlessly.
Last edited by boatheelmusic; 01-17-2016 at 06:59 AM.
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An arpeggio exercise drill I like to do is to take a chromatic descending progression of one chord type - for example D-7 / Db-7 / C-7/ B-7 / Bb -7 - and outline the chord tones/arpeggios, but by ascending up the fingerboard one position at a time with each change..
So in example above you would play D-7 out of 5th pos, Db-7 in 6th, C-7 in 7th, B-7 in 7th, Bb in 8th, etc..conn
This is a great way to get all your arp/chord patterns together as it makes you avoid the common/obvious approach of just moving the same one pattern downward with each change when faced with chromatic harmonic movement. It also promotes connecting to any chord tone of the chord and just sounds nice - as the harmony is descending but the melodic material has an ascending motion
I find this sort of thing helps with tunes with chromatic ii-V movement, ie Moment's Notice, Joy Spring,etc
Obviously the concept, like any, can be expanded to cover other areas..
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As Reg pointed out earlier, your comments here are off base, targuit. This thread is about one thing only: arpeggio drills. No one said that's all anyone should do or that it is the most important thing to do. But it's about doing that, mastering that. You keep talking about the value of learning tunes. No one here disputes that, it's just that no one is talking about that HERE now. And the reason is because that is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is arpeggio drills. If you're not interested in that, fine. Spend your time on other threads. If no current ones interest you, start a new one on whatever subject you like. Originally Posted by targuit
Not looking for an argument or trying to start one. Just discussing. Technical exercises are essential. Playing scales are essential. Reading music is essential. Developing the ears to use that technique is essential.
Arpeggio practice - good. Developing independence and finger dexterity - good. Learning voice leading in the context of songs - essential. Why not combine these together? Harmonic context - essential.
The above is just an opinion. Everyone has one.
Peace, love and many hours of arpeggio practice!
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