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Lets see how this goes. I admit I am struggling with understanding modes a bit.
On one level the way some guitar video teachers and articles tell it it sounds simple, but due to blocks I may have (most likely owing to trauma of my math education nightmare at schools), my mind easily gets mangled when dealing with number patterns
The good thing about this is that when I get my head around this, I bet I will be a great explainer about it, and will get through the blocks of anyone not diggin it
So how I want to play this thread IF people are willing to play it my way, is me asking questions--rather than being drowned with even more complexity and being told to go read a book.
Here is an example:
I had previously been trying to understand Dorian mode, and had read about 'Second Degrees' of scales. I didn't know what a 'second degree' even was but i went on reading. I was told that the second degree of C mj was D Dorian, so I looked at it and discovered it had no sharps or flats just like Cmj. But THEN I presumed the same would apply to E Dorian , ie that E dorian would have no sharps and flats, because it was from Cmj. But was told that that is not so, that E Dorian is the Second Degree of Dmj, not Cmj. So that is why it has sharps
So this is the question: So this means that 'Dorian mode' means that you take the second degrees of all the notes of Cmj?Last edited by elixzer; 04-22-2009 at 04:38 AM. Reason: typos
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04-22-2009 04:38 AM
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Modes are just the same scale with a different starting mode
All the modes of Cmajor
C ionian C D E F G A B
D dorian D E F G A B C
E Frygian E F G A B C D
F Lydian F G A B C D E
G Myxolydian G A B C D E F
A Aeoian A B C D E F G
B Locrian B C D E F G A
No sharps or flats, this is C major and all it's modes.
The modes to any other major scale are built the same way.
So for example Gmaj is G A B C D E F#
A dorian is then A B C D E F# G
And so on.Last edited by Joe Dalton; 04-22-2009 at 06:18 AM.
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as Joe said, where's the problem?
Take a c-major scale and start it step by step upwards.
Certainly no sharps or flats ( btw. you might mix something )
Don't be intimidated by greek words.
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OK so if I follow that above: C ioanian, D dorian, E Phrygian, etc there are definately no sharps or flats in any of them, right?
Originally Posted by Joe Dalton
Now, a question, what is E dorian then? But let me guess---'dorian' means that it is the second degree of Dmj, and thus will contain two sharps?Last edited by elixzer; 04-22-2009 at 06:48 AM.
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as with all scales their are certain patterns to whole steps and half steps..
notate (on manuscript paper) the notes of all the modes in the "C" scale..
now analyze the location of the whole steps and half steps..
transpose to the keys of "G" and "F" and do the same...one sharp/one flat..then on to three sharps/three flats..
now play the Dorian scale pattern on "C" root...different say?
it does take some time to digest the mode theory...do it in small steps..
time playing the instrument is time well spent..pierre
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Exactly dorian is the second degree, frygian 3 lydian 4 myxolydian 5 aeolian 6 locrian 7 Originally Posted by elixzer
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Originally Posted by Joe Dalton
ok. So we have established the dorian is second degree of the scale of c major, D dorian
So E dorian is second degree of Dmajor
F dorian is second degree of E major etc.
So phrygian (i love this spelling) is 3rd degree? so let me see if i understand that?
so E phrygian is 3rd degree of Cmj
and D phrygian is 3rd degree of B major?
etc?
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You got it though to be exact the second of E major is F# (same distance as C and D) and the third of B major is D#
To know the correct distances of a major just remember C is C D E F G A B so to get any of the intervals you can just look to C major and see how far the intervals are supposed to be apart.
Making progress?
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Yeah i ...think so...? Though you've thrown me a little Originally Posted by Joe Dalton
I think I have the asumption you see of the no flat no sharp cmj (which is being mentioned a lot) Thjough I have figured out at E dorian is second degree of D major and thus has two sharps right?
So you say that the second degree of Emj is F# because so as to keep the Whole interval? As it is for D as second degree of C. So you mean it is important to keep the same intervals so to speak when workin this out?? same with B to C#, as that keeps the Whole step, rather than a half step/one fret....right?
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you got it. The major scale is formed, w w h w w w h
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OK, that is the pattern, though I remember major scales thus '3&4 stick togther, 7&8 stick togther'--this has helped me, to make it weasier say to tranpose down the neck. Ie,m to know that 1/8 means you can go 8,7, 6, yet knowing that from 8 to 7 is h and from 7 to 6 is w Originally Posted by Joe Dalton
Anyway getting back. so you say that is the pattern:
wwhwww
So, say I want to use B dorian. B is second degree of A mj. So do I keep to that pattern, wwhwww--
Will you write out B dorian?
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Hey pierre Originally Posted by pierre richard
I sometimes think I've grapsed it and then it slips away,,,,
So it is the patterns that are important?
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Just look to the c major
ionian wwhwwwh
dorion whwwwhw
frygian hwwwhww
see? You just move the patern up.
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Oh god this twists my brain Originally Posted by Joe Dalton
Must be the way people with so-called dyslexia feel when asked to write, read.
Is the panic I sometimes feel with this kind of thing.
I can see that those h's are seeming to move up one---and that continues through all the modes??
So let me see:
We have: 1, C Major, & 2, D Dorian
C, D, E, F, G, A, B,
w w w h w w w w
D, E, F, G, A, B, C,
w w h w w w w h
I am seeing this 'move-up' pattern, but am not understanding the POINT of it. I am just being honest.
Part of a personal pain for me with this harks back to childhood memories of feeling ashamed when I didn't dig the maths---as though, I should, but cant. And I dont wanna keep saying I dont know when I should
As you can see, I dont care now and will ask till I understandLast edited by elixzer; 04-22-2009 at 10:42 AM. Reason: missed w, h, s
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Though this is seems to be the prevailing way to view the modes, I personally don't find it very useful, and think it is confusing for students when they are first exposed to the modes. There is another method.
The other way to see the modes is by formula. So just like any major scale is spelled r, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and natural minor is spelled, r, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, each mode has a unique spelling. So:
Ionian (same as major scale listed above)
Dorian (brightest of the minor modes) r, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Phrygian r, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Lydian r, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian r, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7 (the b7 is why it sounds good over dominant chords)
Aeolian (same as natural minor listed above)
Locrian r, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7
So for me, everything comes back to either the major or minor scales. Taking my major scale, I can see where the #4 lies, so lydian is easy to play. I can also easily see where the b7 lies within my major scale, so mixolydian becomes easy to play too. I see these as optional color notes for my major scale.
Taking the natural minor, I can lighten it up by playing a major 6th rather than b6. For phrygian, just add the b2nd to the natural minor. For locrian, add both b2nd and b5th.
This approach keeps you from having to think about how E dorian relates back to some other major scale, which eliminates a mental step for me. I think it is important to view the modes in a number of ways (I have been shown about 5) eventually, but I get more mileage, particularly at the beginning with the above. Good luck
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I was reading about the modes in an article yesterday (I have been checkin out loads to see if one explanation will click with me), and it said to look at the modes as 'flavours'. I can dig that,,,,, at least. And you explain doing that which is cool. Originally Posted by derek
Yet still at this point I am not confident to know to suddenly serve up an A dorian, etc etc phrygian yet, because although there may be some light, I still aint really understood.
When you say: "So for me, everything comes back to either the major or minor scales. Taking my major scale, I can see where the #4 lies, so lydian is easy to play."
What scale are you talking about? A scale with a 4th sharp Gmj ? So to improvise over that you would choose lydian?
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i agree derek...learning all the modes and the theory behind it is for college credit as I always say...but I do have students that wish to learn it and learn it they do...
I would rather "hear" them play something than analyze it..although it's part of the process...to know what you are playing...
time on the instrument..pierre
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I keep hearing you say that pierre, and can I ask you to elaborate on that? Because I sense that I might be falling INTO this--wanting to analyze too much? Originally Posted by pierre richard
So can you encourage me by showing some examples of how playing guitar, exploring is better than guitar propped up whilst worring about modes and patterns etc...?
Sometimes I my be going through a scale on guitar and I sometimes feel lost. Like there is something I need to get, and thats when I put it down and get lost in trying to dig the theory...?
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When I learned modes, it made playing guitar much easier and much more logical. I don't think modes are complicated, it is the long winded, overly complex explanations that confuse.
Start simple. Learn a C Major scale over the entire neck. You are now playing the C Ionian mode. If you start playing that same scale using a 'G' note as your starting place (your root note) you are in 'G' mixolydian . . . but, what does that mean.
What it means is this: You are playing a 12 bar blues in 'G' and it starts with 4 bars of G7. You don't have to learn a new G7 scale, you just play your C scale starting on a G note and you are playing a G7 scale. That is the power of modes.
Go slowly. Be sure you understand how to use each of the modes. They are all as simple to understand as the C - G7 example. Give yourself time to get familiar with them. Everything will begin to make sense.
Bill
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Originally Posted by elixzer
I am talking about any major scale. You can talk specifics if you like, and knowing all the notes in every scale, in every key is a goal for all my students, but understanding scale formulas is an easier intermediate step imo. That way you can apply it to any key you choose.
So take any major scale you like. You have at least one or two patterns you rely on right? Okay, play the scale slowly naming each scale degree. Root, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. That is one octave. Now looking at the 4, sharp it one fret. Play the scale again with that #4. Congrats, you just played lydian. Doesn't matter what key you are in.
Take the information in my previous post and apply this one at a time, using the different formulas I listed, and you get the sounds of each mode without having to try to relate it back to a key. Each mode can be treated as a distinct scale pattern.
What I do when teaching this is to lay out the major scale on fretboard grid paper and using a black pen, put all the notes for 2 octaves. I then take another color and mark the #4, and yet another color for b7. This shows you how you can stick with your major scale pattern you have burned into your fingers and grab the lydian sound (#4) or mixolydian sound (b7) any time you wish without changing anything else.
I do this same thing for natural minor and all the minor modes, that is the modes with b3 in them. So Aeolian (aka natural minor), dorian, phyrgian, and locrian. Hope this makes sense.
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I really like what you say here, Bill, and It kinda clicks with me. Let me break it down though: Originally Posted by Bill_J
I have been practising C Major scale/C Ionian mode all over fretboard, and C minor pentatonic scale too. So this I understand...
So then you say choose G. Now G from Cmj is the 5th degree? And is the mixolydian mode. True?
This is where it gets confusing for me. Because then you say I am now playing a 12 bar Blues in G. At first I thought you meant that the G mixolydian mode is the G pentatonic scale. But I think you mean, 'for example'--you are playing a 12 bar Blues in G.............no i have lost it. this bit is confusing me. Loved the first bit
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That is very interesting you saying that. That knowing all the notes in every scale is a goal for your students. The other day an online tutor gave an excercicse to know every note of the major scales from first position. Originally Posted by derek
It SEEMED to me very arduous. But is this what you mean?
WHY is it important? because I imagine that I wll make the effort and then forget the notes. What is theis practice doing that is so vital (and HOW many scales do you mean?)
Well I am very familiar with the major/Ionian scale. And very familiar with the minor pentatonic scales.So take any major scale you like. You have at least one or two patterns you rely on right? Okay, play the scale slowly naming each scale degree. Root, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. That is one octave. Now looking at the 4, sharp it one fret. Play the scale again with that #4. Congrats, you just played lydian. Doesn't matter what key you are in.
What if the 4 of the scale is already sharp?
Thats right you gave all the formulas for the modes, and your saying that this is same for ANY mode that is called dorian, lydian, phrygia--they each have those same formulas?Take the information in my previous post and apply this one at a time, using the different formulas I listed, and you get the sounds of each mode without having to try to relate it back to a key. Each mode can be treated as a distinct scale pattern.
it SEEMS so, but the proof is in the confidence of my fingers doing the scales. I may try to do the same lay out, and experiment with what you mean. That simply changing one or two notes etc magically transforms it into another mode/flavour...?What I do when teaching this is to lay out the major scale on fretboard grid paper and using a black pen, put all the notes for 2 octaves. I then take another color and mark the #4, and yet another color for b7. This shows you how you can stick with your major scale pattern you have burned into your fingers and grab the lydian sound (#4) or mixolydian sound (b7) any time you wish without changing anything else.
I do this same thing for natural minor and all the minor modes, that is the modes with b3 in them. So Aeolian (aka natural minor), dorian, phyrgian, and locrian. Hope this makes sense.
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Basically, I would just repeat everything else said here probably. Just keep working on it (away from the guitar with visualization in your mind as well) and you WILL get it. Seriosuly,I've never met anyone who didn't get the basic idea after some thought and practice.
Yes, just changing one or two notes can transform not only between the major modes but from there to the melodic or harmonic minor modes as well. It's not physics. Don't make it harder than it is and you will be fine, I think. It just takes time, like everything.
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after years of study it just comes out right...the mind tells the fingers what to do and does it and the sound is there...whew..
singing the melody in your head should be the first part...and not just the fingering patterns that we all play from time to time..it should sound more fluid and not as mechanical as when we play patterns....
if it sounds good to your ears it's good...and when it does not sound so good..this is the red light to stop and say "why".."what did I do there"..and so on...remember it's a journey that has no end....stop and smell the roses from time to time..by that I mean...just play and get lost in your playing...
the sounds are there waiting for your ability to get to the point that you can find them..
it takes time....pierre
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Derek's approach is the best, if you ask me (with no disrespect to the other perfectly accurate explanations).
The modes were a mystery to me until I started viewing them as intervallic formulas as Derek has outlined above. Once I started looking at them in this manner, they were very easy to apply at that point.
If you look at the intervals the modes represent, then it is very obvious why they sound the way they do over certain chords. I don't think that is very self-evident to a beginner using the conventional explanation that gets all caught up in the derivation from the major scale.
It also helps beginners see that they can play in a particular mode all over the neck, and play it over ANY chord, not just particular chords. So I can play Dorian mode anywhere on the neck simply by playing the 1,2,b3,4,5,6, and b7 intervals with respect to the root of the chord I'm playing over. I can play Dorian over a minor 7 and it will sound stable and "normal" because the minor 7 has 1,b3,5,b7 and Dorian has the 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7. But I can also play Dorian over the dom 7 and it will now have some tension because of the clash between Dorian's b3 and the natural 3 of the Dom 7, making it sound bluesy (depending on phrasing).
But until you look at the modes with respect to their intervallic relationship with the chords you are playing over, it's hard to see your harmonic options as well.Last edited by Goofsus4; 04-22-2009 at 03:12 PM.
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